little wondering about "sources of atheism"

[anybody_mcc]

Recently few things made me wonder why different countries ( often very culturally similar ) have often opposite ratios of atheists/theists.

First of all i recently found out that 80-90% of people here in Czech Rep. does not believe in any kind of theistic god. ( I'm not sure about validity of that poll , but even if it is not true , the figure is surely bigger than 60% and even that number makes us i suppose ( or not ?? ) the most atheistic country in the world , oficially maybe after North Korea. )

Also i was recently visiting few christian sites and found the stories very similar to those i read on some American atheist pages , just inverted. They were complaining about how it is hard to be only christian in the class and how even teachers are "against" them sometimes ridiculing some christian ideas.

Next thing was something i always kind of known , but realized it just recently after viewing some American ( not only ) shows and articles. Here it is probably the far right ( after the communist party of course ) that is very anti-religious , i would say more than social-democrats ( not that they are pro ).

And the last one was the first impulse that got me thinking about it recently. When i was going to visit my parents , i met 4 other people in our coupe. We were all strangers and we started talking and somehow got to religion and the decision was unanimous that religion is something archaic , which do not really belong in this century. And in that moment i remembered how similar situation happend just about 100km across the border in Poland , also in the train , when i was nearly stoned to death ( metaphorically of course ) for saying the same thing.

So the question is : Why is it so ?

We had few theories , but not explaining anything really , like :
That 40 years of communist government did this , but to disprove this it is enough to point out the Poland with its probably 90+% of catholics.
Or , rather silly , that people are just more rational here , but that is simply not true , because they believe in any other kind of nonsense as willingly as anywhere else.

Of course that would be ( if it is not anyway ) stupid thread to ask that question specifically about Czeh Rep. , but i would rather like to discuss how is it in other countries ( perhaps except USA , and maybe Canada and UK , because it has been discussed quite extensively already , but in the end why not ). And of course to discuss the reasons for this.

If this looks like stupid and boring thread , or like a rant , feel free to move it or delete it.

[Darth Wong]

Japan is also highly atheistic. There is probably a bit of cultural legacy involved, although some studies have also indicated that some ethnicities are, believe it or not, less likely to respond to religious indoctrination. Apparently the same part of the brain that gives superior 3-D spatial awareness also prevents the kind of religious "out of body" experiences that often cement a typical believer's faith.

In other words, if your kid has excellent 3D spatial co-ordination, there's a pretty good chance that he won't buy into religion, or if he does, it will be of a moderate persuasion because he never had one of those "out of body" experiences that makes people think their religion is ABSOLUTE TRUTH rather than just being "my personal belief system". If he has lousy 3D spatial co-ordination, on the other hand, expect him to turn into a fundie unless he's well-educated to prevent it.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I must be just weird. I'm no longer religious because I see it as unadultered bullshit when you really read the source material.

[anybody_mcc]

Japan is also highly atheistic. There is probably a bit of cultural legacy involved, although some studies have also indicated that some ethnicities are, believe it or not, less likely to respond to religious indoctrination.

Like Japan i would expect Korea , China , Vietnam to be also ( last two not only because of regime ) higly atheistic , and it could be because of confucianism and similar "religions". The question is , is it because of the religion type , or the religion adopted is influenced by some ethnic ( by that i mean some common genetic traits ) "features". But I would in this case expect that culture and history are more important. The reason is that the figures change rapidly when crossing borders.

Apparently the same part of the brain that gives superior 3-D spatial awareness also prevents the kind of religious "out of body" experiences that often cement a typical believer's faith.

In other words, if your kid has excellent 3D spatial co-ordination, there's a pretty good chance that he won't buy into religion, or if he does, it will be of a moderate persuasion because he never had one of those "out of body" experiences that makes people think their religion is ABSOLUTE TRUTH rather than just being "my personal belief system". If he has lousy 3D spatial co-ordination, on the other hand, expect him to turn into a fundie unless he's well-educated to prevent it.

I haven't heard about those studies , very interesting , thankfully i have good 3-D spatial awareness . Unfortunately education is not 100% effective against turning into fundie , i've met some quite well-educated ( and by that i mean universities and mathematical or engineering degrees , with atheistic parents and nearly no contact with religion till 25-30 ) people , who turned out to be fanatical fundies. Also i think that some of them , because of lack of religious influence here , turn instead to some UFO/conspiracy/spiritism/paranormal nuts. Hopefully it is better than religius fundies. But it is sad that even you eliminate one kind of ignorance, it just changes form.

[PainRack]

Recently few things made me wonder why different countries ( often very culturally similar ) have often opposite ratios of atheists/theists.

So the question is : Why is it so ?

We had few theories , but not explaining anything really , like :
That 40 years of communist government did this , but to disprove this it is enough to point out the Poland with its probably 90+% of catholics.
Or , rather silly , that people are just more rational here , but that is simply not true , because they believe in any other kind of nonsense as willingly as anywhere else.

Of course that would be ( if it is not anyway ) stupid thread to ask that question specifically about Czeh Rep. , but i would rather like to discuss how is it in other countries ( perhaps except USA , and maybe Canada and UK , because it has been discussed quite extensively already , but in the end why not ). And of course to discuss the reasons for this.

If this looks like stupid and boring thread , or like a rant , feel free to move it or delete it.

I can't remember which tour guidebook says this, but religion in Singapore is just like Singapore. A strange mixture of the modern and old, with a secular front layering a superstitious core.

One can also argue that just as in the States, after a materialistic burst in the eighties, people are reverting back to religion for spiritual comfort.

I won't give figures as I suspect that the portion of "free-thinkers" in official data is not as overwhelming as it really is and IMO, theists probably make up the majority of Singapore population.

As for why this is so....................... its tempting to lump this at the door of the Singapore social experiment, in which an education and political system unintended side effect has created a huge society of uncritical people, willing to take beliefs at face value but I suspect its deeper than that. Although for the hell of me, I can't seem to organise my thoughts and explore this further.

[Exonerate]

Japan is also highly atheistic. There is probably a bit of cultural legacy involved, although some studies have also indicated that some ethnicities are, believe it or not, less likely to respond to religious indoctrination.

Not so much atheistic as just not religious, I think - the majority of the population is still superstitious. More likely, they're not as fanatical as say, the Middle East or US because they don't have the rich... tradition.

[Lusankya]

Japan possibly also appears less religious to the western eye because the trappings of the local religions don't match our preconceptions.


ROAR!!!!! says GOJIRA!!!!!

[Zero]

Japan is also highly atheistic. There is probably a bit of cultural legacy involved, although some studies have also indicated that some ethnicities are, believe it or not, less likely to respond to religious indoctrination. Apparently the same part of the brain that gives superior 3-D spatial awareness also prevents the kind of religious "out of body" experiences that often cement a typical believer's faith.

In other words, if your kid has excellent 3D spatial co-ordination, there's a pretty good chance that he won't buy into religion, or if he does, it will be of a moderate persuasion because he never had one of those "out of body" experiences that makes people think their religion is ABSOLUTE TRUTH rather than just being "my personal belief system". If he has lousy 3D spatial co-ordination, on the other hand, expect him to turn into a fundie unless he's well-educated to prevent it.

Do you have a link to a study or studies speaking of the 3D spatial co-ordination bit? It sounds like something I'd like to read into.

[Antares]

In other words, if your kid has excellent 3D spatial co-ordination, there's a pretty good chance that he won't buy into religion, or if he does, it will be of a moderate persuasion because he never had one of those "out of body" experiences that makes people think their religion is ABSOLUTE TRUTH rather than just being "my personal belief system". If he has lousy 3D spatial co-ordination, on the other hand, expect him to turn into a fundie unless he's well-educated to prevent it.

Hmm.. for me this is true. I am working a lot with the 3D software Blender
and i had no problem with 3D games such as homeworld, which was said to
have a very complex controlling due to full 3D.
And of course, i am an atheist.

[Alferd Packer]

Do you have a link to a study or studies speaking of the 3D spatial co-ordination bit? It sounds like something I'd like to read into.

Same here. Books would be cool, too.

[K. A. Pital]

That 40 years of communist government did this , but to disprove this it is enough to point out the Poland with its probably 90+% of catholics.

Poland is also highly unrespectful of the communist government, same as some Baltics - and they sure do have a reason for this.

Seriously, cultural legacy means a lot.

And it also seems to me that countries which hardly experienced any dictatorships, "beating" in a war, or collapse - historically - tend to favor fundieism more. I may be uncorrect, but from the looks of it... Japan, Germany, Russia, Czech are highly atheistic. On the other side... USA, UK, Australia seem to be heavily indocrinated.

Not to offend anybody, these are just my first-hand impressions of these places, not some sort of a study in the distribution of Christian religion.

P.S. Czech Republic is one of the best countries I've been aside Russia and Germany. The utter lack of fundie-ism makes me rejoice.

P.P.S. On a side note, Czech has free higher education, too, is that correct?

[outcast]

Well, the Netherlands is highly atheistic+secular aswell, but surely we have had a fairly religious history, particularly with calvinism. However, i do believe there is a distinct historical/cultural reason why we are as tolerant of other beliefs/unbeliefs as we are. And that's a uniquely dutch social structure of the past: Pillarization. Basically each ideological group from, catholics, to protestants, to atheists, to communists, to whatever, had their own newspapers, their own radiostations, their own sportsclubs, etc etc. But there was no hostility between these 'pillars'. Ofcourse, since the 70's this social structure has all but vanished, but i still think it echoes through in our perceptions.

Today, easily 60-80% of the country would be atheistic/non-religious. Although i must explain that at least in Holland, and i know this is somewhat true in the rest of western europe, on polls, people often place the religion of their parents even if they themselves don't believe in it. This might have to do with the pillarization. It's like jews and judaism. It's both a culture and a religion, but a lot of jews consider themselves atheists.

Ofcourse, if i were to do the same, i would fill in 'heathen'. As my mother used to do on all polls

[Bounty]

And that's a uniquely dutch social structure of the past

Pillarization is hardly "uniquely Dutch", nor is it a perfect way of preserving the peace. It does help to keep one ideology from getting total control over one or more aspects of society.

But I'd say the Dutch atheism is linked more closely to the level of education and in particular the social revolution in the '60s, when an entire generation realised that they didn't have to live under religious dogma. Modern society replaced much of what religion indirectly offered - mental comfort, solidarity, safety.

[anybody_mcc]

That 40 years of communist government did this , but to disprove this it is enough to point out the Poland with its probably 90+% of catholics.

Poland is also highly unrespectful of the communist government, same as some Baltics - and they sure do have a reason for this.

It is true that in here the communist party has much greater support than in Poland , it even looks like in March/April elections they may get 15-20% of votes.

Seriously, cultural legacy means a lot.

And it also seems to me that countries which hardly experienced any dictatorships, "beating" in a war, or collapse - historically - tend to favor fundieism more. I may be uncorrect, but from the looks of it... Japan, Germany, Russia, Czech are highly atheistic. On the other side... USA, UK, Australia seem to be heavily indocrinated.

Not to offend anybody, these are just my first-hand impressions of these places, not some sort of a study in the distribution of Christian religion.

I don't think that this has much impact , too many examples that do not fit the hypothesis.

P.S. Czech Republic is one of the best countries I've been aside Russia and Germany. The utter lack of fundie-ism makes me rejoice.

P.P.S. On a side note, Czech has free higher education, too, is that correct?

Yep , still correct , although government is still talking about something like 9000-20000 Kc per year ( == $400-900 , average month salary is $800 ) , but the only thing they were able to do is that now when you are studying more than a year longer than standard program length , you must pay about $100/month , and if you want to study more than one program you must pay those. When i was starting at the university there were many who were doing 2 ( even 3 ) schools , all for free

[SirNitram]

Japan is also highly atheistic.

This is partly because their religion up to 1945 was, um, to put it lightly, torn apart from the inside. When your Sun-God, centerpoint of your belief, gets on the radio and sounds like reedy Johnson from Accounting, telling you he's not a God and it's time to surrender, your faith is going to have some issues.