Anakin's Injuries

[Whitestar]

I'm still waiting for a reasoned answer.

Could you repeat the question?


Whitestar

This one

Why? He was a Sith Lord. Was your SoD streched when Obi-Wan stood on the slope easily, when the heat would have driven back or killed a normal man, as well? Your objection makes no sense.

The first one after your second post.

You can call this EU if you wish and I'm not sure I buy it either, but there was a "Locations Guide" to ROTS published which talked about Mustafar.

It said that the temperature near the lava is too intense to survive without special clothing (which has merit since the Mustafarians do wear protective clothing). During the duel, Anakin and Obi-Wan use the Force to create a bubble around themselves for protection from the heat.

When Anakin is beaten, he is unable to maintain the bubble, exposing himself to the heat. Not only was he burned externally from the fire, but he had significant damage to his internal organs. Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader gets into his injuries in greater detail (Yeah, I know...EU again) talking about him having artifical internal organs and melted ear drums from the heat.

I would also like to point out that I personally witnessed a horrific car accident many years ago, in which a man was trapped in his flaming car. Many bystanders, including myself attempted to help this guy, but it was too late as we were force (no pun intended) to watch him burn to death. The ordeal left me traumatized and ever since watching that scene, I find it very hard to believe Anakin's survivability. Hope this helps.


Whitestar

Thus, Anakin should have died, Force or no Force. Hope this helps.

[Whitestar]

And three, you're obviously challenged if you didn't read the goddamn rules and grasp them in some capacity.

I will admit that I generally tend to not read the rules, but that's due to my utter impatience. Thanks for pointing that out, you asshole!


Whitestar

[Ghost Rider]

And three, you're obviously challenged if you didn't read the goddamn rules and grasp them in some capacity.

I will admit that I generally tend to not read the rules, but that's due to my utter impatience. Thanks for pointing that out, you asshole!


Whitestar

I'm glad that for all your professed dislike of profanity you spew just as easily when reminded of something you have admitted was a fault of your own.

Good to see your stupidity continues.

[Ghost Rider]

Could you repeat the question?


Whitestar

This one

Why? He was a Sith Lord. Was your SoD streched when Obi-Wan stood on the slope easily, when the heat would have driven back or killed a normal man, as well? Your objection makes no sense.

The first one after your second post.

You can call this EU if you wish and I'm not sure I buy it either, but there was a "Locations Guide" to ROTS published which talked about Mustafar.

It said that the temperature near the lava is too intense to survive without special clothing (which has merit since the Mustafarians do wear protective clothing). During the duel, Anakin and Obi-Wan use the Force to create a bubble around themselves for protection from the heat.

When Anakin is beaten, he is unable to maintain the bubble, exposing himself to the heat. Not only was he burned externally from the fire, but he had significant damage to his internal organs. Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader gets into his injuries in greater detail (Yeah, I know...EU again) talking about him having artifical internal organs and melted ear drums from the heat.

I would also like to point out that I personally witnessed a horrific car accident many years ago, in which a man was trapped in his flaming car. Many bystanders, including myself attempted to help this guy, but it was too late as we were force (no pun intended) to watch him burn to death. The ordeal left me traumatized and ever since watching that scene, I find it very hard to believe Anakin's survivability. Hope this helps.


Whitestar

Thus, Anakin should have died, Force or no Force. Hope this helps.

So it doesn't stretch that in battle they maintain a Force bubble/shield. But when he's beaten the Force bubble LEAVES him. Do you even see the illogic you are spewing?

He can't survive in that arena without the Force, but you're claiming he lost it when beaten.

So how the fuck did he survive again?

I await to hear proof of this Force Bubble leaving him. You're presenting an extraordinary claim, back it up or shove it.

[Anguirus]

The bubble may be gone, but he's still a Sith Lord. EU for *years* has stated that Vader survived his burns through sheer hatred and Force power. In effect, he does what even Plagueis couldn't...he cheats death. Don't buy it? Fine. But he's the Chosen One, and he did that, and he was never, ever the same afterward, even with the best of Star Wars medical technology available to him and tutoring by the galaxy's ultimate badass in the Dark Side.

In fact, until RotS, the assumption was that Vader would actually CONTACT LAVA and survive, based on passages from the RotJ novel and a Lucas "Bantha Tracks" interview from 1978. So what we get is actually fairly plausible. Skywalker, who has more sheer Force potential than any being in the galaxy, has his natural limbs severed and catches on fire. He sustains grotesque but survivable burns, can't breathe effectively (he survives this for a period in RotJ), and is rescued within minutes by the Emperor. (The novel shows us that Obi-Wan actually sees the Emperor's shuttle come in for a landing before he takes off.)

[Whitestar]

So it doesn't stretch that in battle they maintain a Force bubble/shield. But when he's beaten the Force bubble LEAVES him. Do you even see the illogic you are spewing?

He can't survive in that arena without the Force, but you're claiming he lost it when beaten.

So how the fuck did he survive again?

I await to hear proof of this Force Bubble leaving him. You're presenting an extraordinary claim, back it up or shove it.

What?!? Haven't you been paying attention? Talk about stupidity! I just mentioned that the theory behind those bubble shields can be located at your local bookstore, you fuckin' dolt! George Lucas has stated that the EU are not considered canon, but it doesn't mean it is unimportant. There is no proof that this actually happened, it merely is a matter of interpretation.


Whitestar

[Ghost Rider]

So it doesn't stretch that in battle they maintain a Force bubble/shield. But when he's beaten the Force bubble LEAVES him. Do you even see the illogic you are spewing?

He can't survive in that arena without the Force, but you're claiming he lost it when beaten.

So how the fuck did he survive again?

I await to hear proof of this Force Bubble leaving him. You're presenting an extraordinary claim, back it up or shove it.

What?!? Haven't you been paying attention? Talk about stupidity! I just mentioned that the theory behind those bubble shields can be located at your local bookstore, you fuckin' dolt! George Lucas has stated that the EU are not considered canon, but it doesn't mean it is unimportant. There is no proof that this actually happened, it merely is a matter of interpretation.


Whitestar

I love when an idiot lies.

You said fuck nut:

You can call this EU if you wish and I'm not sure I buy it either, but there was a "Locations Guide" to ROTS published which talked about Mustafar.

It said that the temperature near the lava is too intense to survive without special clothing (which has merit since the Mustafarians do wear protective clothing). During the duel, Anakin and Obi-Wan use the Force to create a bubble around themselves for protection from the heat.

When Anakin is beaten, he is unable to maintain the bubble, exposing himself to the heat. Not only was he burned externally from the fire, but he had significant damage to his internal organs. Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader gets into his injuries in greater detail (Yeah, I know...EU again) talking about him having artifical internal organs and melted ear drums from the heat.

I'm sorry, you only included that they needed a Force Bubble to survive(gee...whiz, anyone contending that?...no?)

But then you stated, and I'll bold it and enlarge it for your little brain

When Anakin is beaten, he is unable to maintain the bubble, exposing himself to the heat.

Prove that statement fucknut.

[Whitestar]

I love when an idiot lies.

Speak for yourself, shithead!

When Anakin is beaten, he is unable to maintain the bubble, exposing himself to the heat.

Prove that statement fucknut.

As I stated earlier, it's not a matter of proof, just many different ways of interpretations. YOU decide as to why Anakin suddenly burst into flames. I not going to spoonfeed you on this, dickwad.


Whitestar

[Noble Ire]

What?!? Haven't you been paying attention? Talk about stupidity! I just mentioned that the theory behind those bubble shields can be located at your local bookstore, you fuckin' dolt! George Lucas has stated that the EU are not considered canon, but it doesn't mean it is unimportant. There is no proof that this actually happened, it merely is a matter of interpretation.

Just as an aside, but despite what you may have heard from those like Darkstar and SuperShadow, the EU is quite official, a recognized an coherent part of continuity. Raising it as evidence in a debate is perfectly valid. However, the examples you chose didn't exactly further your case. In fact, Dark Lord makes it quite clear that Anakin would not have survived his injuries if he was not so well endowded with the Force.

Edit: To forestall any further blathering on the subject, please look here before you post something in the anti-EU vein.

[Ghost Rider]

I love when an idiot lies.

Speak for yourself, shithead!
As I stated earlier, it's not a matter of proof, just many different ways of interpretations. YOU decide as to why Anakin suddenly burst into flames. I not going to spoonfeed you on this, dickwad.


Whitestar

Concession accepted fucker.

You are bitching and whining that you cannot prove this thought and resort to a principle of claiming perception differences.

[Master of Ossus]

Alright, nublet. First of all, I'm glad that you acquainted yourself with the rules of this message board BEFORE attempting to set board policy. Do not complain about profanity from your debate opponents here, again.

The ordeal left me traumatized and ever since watching that scene, I find it very hard to believe Anakin's survivability. Hope this helps.

Before reading about such cases, I would have found it difficult to believe that people could survive through third degree burns to 99+% of their body, but it's happened repeatedly. Finding something difficult to believe does not constitute a refutation of observable, repeatable instances. It's not good for someone to suffer such serious thermal damage, and many such people do not survive. Nonetheless, it can happen in real life. People have survived, even after suffering horrific injuries from high heat, and your disbelief does not constitute a rebuttal of these incidents.

Thus, Anakin should have died, Force or no Force. Hope this helps.

I have demonstrated that people HAVE SURVIVED SIMILARLY MASSIVE THERMAL DAMAGE. It's rare, but not unheard of, even with modern medicine. In fact, the doctors at the burn center that I linked to, earlier, concluded that even in children there are NO thermal injuries that when properly treated are lethal in all cases.

I await your rebuttal of these facts. Pointing out the severity of Anakin's burns does not refute the fact that similar damage has been survived in real life, by people who presumably have no access to the Force, and you have not even attempted to quantify Anakin's Force-protection. So if you're trying to say that he would have died "Force or no Force," then you have left yourself some work to do because you must show:

1. People have a ZERO percent chance of surviving Anakin's injuries, despite the fact that people have survived similar injuries in real life.

2. The Force does not substantively change Anakin's prognosis, despite the fact that no human could've even survived that far in the first place and despite the fact that other Force users have been observed to survive what would have been 100% lethal events to a non-Force user (ie. holding your breath in a room so filled with nerve gas that visibility dropped to a few feet).

[PainRack]

Obviously, but the case in question makes it pretty clear that even the most incredibly severe thermal damage can be survived, given only modern medicine. I don't immediately see how having limbs severed in such a way that they are not bleeding and pose little or no risk for infection would compromise survivability to a large degree,

Shock. The trauma from losing limbs is more than sufficient to send someone into shock and die.

and while being cooked within a meter or so of flowing lava isn't going to be too good for you (and assuming that the poison gas is not an issue, since we know from TPM that Jedi can survive for extended periods of time immersed in such fumes without injury and thus that they would not have necessarily caused additional physical damage to Anakin), even severe thermal injuries like the burns that Anakin sustained are survivable, albeit in rare (but not unique) circumstances.

We should note that Anakin isn't just suffering from third degree burns here, but also from possible chemical poisoning. Chemical burns may pose an additional level of difficulty. Not to mention the massive loss of fluids would have caused dehydration and hypovolaemic shock again.

Its obviously moot, since we know that Anakin as well as other Jedi routinely survive such injuries on a routine basis(Qui Gon Jinn anyone?). But to say that surviving such injuries is "routine" for SW force-users is a tad much to swallow. Rather, its a testament to Anakin personal fortitude as well as the sheer speed of recovery.

[Tychu]

In Revenge of the Sith, Anakin suffers severe burn injuries on the lava planet Mustafar and manages to somehow survive long enough for Palpatine to rescue him. Now I know this is fantasy and so far, I've had no problem in suspending my disbelief, but that scene was really pushing it. The question is, could Anakin have survived his burn injuries on that lava planet in real life?

Whitestar

This makes no fucking sense. You have no problem with Obi Wan or Anakin standing mere meter away from a violent lava flow through the latter half of the battle, but you have a problem with Anakin surviving on the hill.

Are you just fucking stupid or do you think that what Obi Wan and Anakin was standard normal human survivability?

in the audio commentary one of the people mention something about a real life situation on Mustafar. Most of them come to the conclusion that the lava on Mustafar might be a tad diffrent from the lava that we're used to

just thought id put that out there

[Master of Ossus]

Shock. The trauma from losing limbs is more than sufficient to send someone into shock and die.

Anakin had already suffered from an amputation earlier in his career, and while it obviously was a serious injury he was not killed or even incapacitated by it. It's reasonable to suppose that various people have differing levels of tolerance for such injuries, and that Anakin is either unusually gifted or else that his Force abilities and conditioning allow him to survive such injuries.

We should note that Anakin isn't just suffering from third degree burns here, but also from possible chemical poisoning. Chemical burns may pose an additional level of difficulty. Not to mention the massive loss of fluids would have caused dehydration and hypovolaemic shock again.

That is true, but we are unsure of the effects of chemical poisoning if in fact there are any. As for the dehydration involved, those problems are encountered by real-life burn victims like the ones I cited earlier. They are survivable.

Its obviously moot, since we know that Anakin as well as other Jedi routinely survive such injuries on a routine basis(Qui Gon Jinn anyone?). But to say that surviving such injuries is "routine" for SW force-users is a tad much to swallow. Rather, its a testament to Anakin personal fortitude as well as the sheer speed of recovery.

I agree that Anakin's survival is not something to be expected of people with similar injuries (which, in fact, is a necessary plot-point--Obi-Wan MUST have been able to conceive that he had killed Anakin), but I also do not agree with the sentiment that it is impossible for him to survive such injuries. I realize that the chemical poisoning he could have suffered is a wild-card--we don't know how serious that was, if in fact there was any--but from the injuries that have been observed I would still have to say that it's possible albeit unlikely for someone to survive.

[RThurmont]

I have to say, Master of Ossus has posted such compelling arguments as to the survivability of this incident that I regret having stupidly voted "no" in the poll before reading this. If a mod can change my vote, I would not object.

In response to Tychu's comments, I find it more of a stretch to consider Mustafar's lava to be some kind of bizarre unusual lava that doesn't instantly disintegrate people (which seems scientifically dubious at best) than to consider that Anakin and Obi-Wan remained safe by using their demonstrated abilities in the force. This also would similiarly explain why Palpatine was not burnt to a crisp when descending to touch Anakin-he used the Force to shield himself (obviously well within his capability set). The clone troopers were wearing armor, which apparently was sufficiently heat resistant so as to obviate any threat posed by the lava.

[Ghost Rider]

The problem is MoO, you are approaching this by a singular thought of burns alone...which you are absolutely correct. Burns alone...Anakin would survive, albeit some difficulty, but not unprecendented...in real life.

Anakin surving the burns being next to an active Lava tube, less then a meter away is insane.

Lava can reach in the ranges of Basaltic lava flows have temperature of 1800-2280 F (1000-1250 C). Rhyolitic lava erupts at temperatures of 1300-1650 F (700-900 C). The temperature of lava depends on its composition. He is standing let us give 2 meters away from this heat, and he was close enough that it did ignite his clothing.

Another factor are gases such as sulfur dioxide and what people call Vog. Vog is a combination of the gases within a active lava that combine with the gases we breate that choke a person. They can be predominatly acidic and remain in the lung. I will note studies are varied on what vog is but not much of it is the specifics of it rather the wthe whole.

So it's not just the burns that are killing him. It is the enviroment as well.

[PainRack]

Anakin had already suffered from an amputation earlier in his career, and while it obviously was a serious injury he was not killed or even incapacitated by it. It's reasonable to suppose that various people have differing levels of tolerance for such injuries, and that Anakin is either unusually gifted or else that his Force abilities and conditioning allow him to survive such injuries.

However, you assume that the situation then was as stressful. Anakin only had to deal with the fact that he had just been electrocuted by Count Dooku Force Lightning, as well as being physically impacting against that alcove. He's facing a much more difficult environment now.

Furthermore, the question you asked was

I don't immediately see how having limbs severed in such a way that they are not bleeding and pose little or no risk for infection would compromise survivability to a large degree,

I'm answering that question.

That is true, but we are unsure of the effects of chemical poisoning if in fact there are any. As for the dehydration involved, those problems are encountered by real-life burn victims like the ones I cited earlier. They are survivable.

Of course they are survivable...... if prompt rehydration and treatment is possible. In this case, its arguable it isn't, as one of the problems Anakin would face would be damage to the GIT from breathing in poisonous fumes and the heat, as well as the lack of any point to insert an IV drip. Furthermore, real life victims aren't trapped for 20 odd min in a hellish like environment.

I agree that Anakin's survival is not something to be expected of people with similar injuries (which, in fact, is a necessary plot-point--Obi-Wan MUST have been able to conceive that he had killed Anakin), but I also do not agree with the sentiment that it is impossible for him to survive such injuries. I realize that the chemical poisoning he could have suffered is a wild-card--we don't know how serious that was, if in fact there was any--but from the injuries that have been observed I would still have to say that it's possible albeit unlikely for someone to survive.

That's sort of a logical fallacy..... We know that Anakin can survive, because he did. Arguing that its possible or not is only possible if we remove the issue of force powers, in which we get a very clear answer. Canon wise, Anakin could and clearly did survive.

However, it should also be noted that this definitely isn't the norm for Jedi. Qui Gon Jin injuries and subsequent death, the death of the Rodian Jedi in AOTC and the loss of Aayla from blaster wounds all suggest that his case was exceptional.

[Master of Ossus]

However, you assume that the situation then was as stressful. Anakin only had to deal with the fact that he had just been electrocuted by Count Dooku Force Lightning, as well as being physically impacting against that alcove. He's facing a much more difficult environment now.

Furthermore, the question you asked was

I don't immediately see how having limbs severed in such a way that they are not bleeding and pose little or no risk for infection would compromise survivability to a large degree,

I'm answering that question.

I completely understand. Anakin's condition is an amalgamation of multiple different, very serious injuries. However, I still don't think that someone in such a position would have no chance of survival--it would just be a very small one.

Of course they are survivable...... if prompt rehydration and treatment is possible. In this case, its arguable it isn't, as one of the problems Anakin would face would be damage to the GIT from breathing in poisonous fumes and the heat, as well as the lack of any point to insert an IV drip. Furthermore, real life victims aren't trapped for 20 odd min in a hellish like environment.

That is generally true, but there are ways around these problems and there are ways to deliver fluids intravenously even to patients who have had their limbs amputated.

That's sort of a logical fallacy..... We know that Anakin can survive, because he did. Arguing that its possible or not is only possible if we remove the issue of force powers, in which we get a very clear answer. Canon wise, Anakin could and clearly did survive.

I don't see a clear answer at all--none of his injuries are completely, 100%, not survivable, with the possible exception of the poison gas which we have no way of measuring. Further, the idea that he would have died Force or no Force, and thus that SoD is impossible in such circumstances, is demonstrably wrong because we have seen Jedi survive all of these conditions except for the burns and we know that humans can survive the burns.

However, it should also be noted that this definitely isn't the norm for Jedi. Qui Gon Jin injuries and subsequent death, the death of the Rodian Jedi in AOTC and the loss of Aayla from blaster wounds all suggest that his case was exceptional.

I don't remember a rodian Jedi from AotC, but your point is well taken. I don't think that survival for someone with Anakin's injuries would be likely, even in the case that he were a Jedi. However, until I see something about the severity of the lung damage that we can expect that demonstrates he would die from that before Palpatine arrived, I can't say that his death would be a foregone conclusion, even if he did not have the Force.

[Cykeisme]

Sorry I'm a little late in this thread, but I'm confused about this discussion. There must be something I'm simply not getting here.

The OP has trouble with Anakin surviving the Mustafar lava bank, but takes no issue with telekinesis, precognition, and the fact that the two duelists survived those same volcanic conditions for many long minutes unscathed up until that point?
I mean, precognition! Talk about a violation of something as fundamental as causality!


The logical deduction based on all observed phenomenon before and up to the event in question, is that they must have been using the Force to protect themselves from the effects of radiated and convected heat, as well as any possible toxic chemicals, up until Anakin lost control due to the distracting effects of multiple amputation. At that point he was either unable to maintain his protection (either partially or entirely), thus taking the debilitating effects of exposure to the intense heat. It's probable that the loss of protection was only partial, since he was not vaporized.
His resilience to the injuries that he did take can also obviously be attributed at least in part to his ability to manipulate the Force to manifest various effects.

As to the question "Could Anakin have survived his burn injuries on that lava planet in real life?", does the OP mean "if the Force did not exist"?

[PainRack]

I completely understand. Anakin's condition is an amalgamation of multiple different, very serious injuries. However, I still don't think that someone in such a position would have no chance of survival--it would just be a very small one.

And a person has survived baling out from a burning bomber without a parachute. Are you thus going to argue that jumping off an airplane without a parachute is survivable for most people?

We can't argue that its impossible for Anakin to survive because we know he did. But if we were to say extrapolate this to other Force users like Palpatine, Skywalker or Obiwan, its doubtful that they will survive. Anakin Skywalker has demonstrated remarkable resilence in the past. A Force lightning attack thats results in puff of smoke emerging from his jerkin, and of course, in ROTJ, Palpatine sends in a series of attacks that illuminates his skeleton. Blaster hits in Children of the Jedi were stated to weaken a Jedi ability to draw on the Force.Having multiple limbs amputated, lying beside a lava pit would presumably have prevented anyone else other than the Chosen One from still being able to use Force powers to protect and sustain himself.

That is generally true, but there are ways around these problems and there are ways to deliver fluids intravenously even to patients who have had their limbs amputated.

His entire body has been burnt and blistered, meaning severe 3rd degree burns. You're assuming that inserting an IV drip in the first place won't kill him.

I don't see a clear answer at all--none of his injuries are completely, 100%, not survivable, with the possible exception of the poison gas which we have no way of measuring. Further, the idea that he would have died Force or no Force, and thus that SoD is impossible in such circumstances, is demonstrably wrong because we have seen Jedi survive all of these conditions except for the burns and we know that humans can survive the burns.

I'm sorry, but breathing in thousand degrees hot air will generally scorch the lungs, causing damage or inflamation at the very least. Throw in shock from amputated limbs. Throw in 3rd degree burns. Throw in an extremely hot environment that non Force-aided humans can't survive in. And although ROTS doesn't show it, there may also be a spinal injury as seen in ROTJ.
Its virtually assured that anyone else OTHER than Anakin would have died in such a situation.