Thrawn or Palleon?

[Crazedwraith]

That happened to a different man and the flashback was in The Courtship of Princess Leia.

Thanks, now I remember. Was it Warlord Zinge(sp)?

Actually it was an intellegence officer working for Zingi.

*head explodes*

Zsinj, dammit its spelt ZSINJ. God, it looks even worse in capitals.

[Tiriol]

As a matter of curiosity:

I've seen this incident in which Lord Vader speaks to a little boy referred often. What the Dark Lord did actually say and what was the situation? Quotes, please.

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

Courtship of Princess Leia, pg. 87:

Once, when Reezen was in his early teens, he'd watched a military parade on Coruscant with his father, and during the parade Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, had stalked by-nearly. Instead, Lord Vader had halted the parade, stopped to look at Reezan, pat him on the head.* Reezan remembered how his frightened image had been reflected in the Dark Lord's helmet, remembered the cold terror as that armored hand patted his head, but Vader had only said softly, "As you serve the Empire, trust your sensitivity," and then he moved on.

*The improper grammer is from my paperback copy, published 1995

[Anguirus]

^ So basically, the guy was a bit Force-sensitive, and got hunches. Great for an Intel guy.

[Tychu]

He called the retreat at Endor. He wasn't in command, or even next in command. His order lost the battle.

And I thought Daala got killed after her ridiculous attempts to be king. Oh well.

i dont know it seems to me when you lose your emperor/supreme commanding general you retreat and regroup and figure out what the hell is going on

plus i have a feeling that the destruction of a massive space staion like the DSII can have some serious computer failures on the surronding ships, Imp and Rebel

[Stark]

So he ordered a retreat without authority when remaining Imperial forces were more than enough to utterly destroy the terrorist fleet. He deserves a court martial. Nothing about his decision made sense. Worst case there were 18+ ISDs plus thousands of TIEs against the rebel fleet less several of their cruisers and most of their fighters down.

[Lord Revan]

So he ordered a retreat without authority when remaining Imperial forces were more than enough to utterly destroy the terrorist fleet. He deserves a court martial. Nothing about his decision made sense. Worst case there were 18+ ISDs plus thousands of TIEs against the rebel fleet less several of their cruisers and most of their fighters down.

your forgetting the human element, more then one battle has been lost due improper cordination and the imperial fleet was in state of chaos at that time (the Thrawn Trilogy is quite clear about this)

your not thinking about this like military commander would

1. The objective for the whole mission is lost (with the DS2 being destroyed)
2. The flagship was lost with all hands
3. the fleet is in state of chaos and morale is low
4. there's a really big chance that the Rebels could escape (due to lack of cordination in the Imperial fleet
5. Endor was of no importance after the Death Star was destroyed

there's 18+ disorganized SDs against an unknown number of rebels (2 Liberty type MonCal cruisers seem to be enough to take down an ISD)

the Imperials had hardware to defeat the Rebels, but that doesn't mean they had the capabilities to do it.

[Ace Pace]

Don't forget many ISD captains fled the battle without waiting for Palleon to give the command.

[Stark]

So when you hopelessly outnumber the enemy fleet, you should run away instead of engaging? As you say, after the loss of DS2 the rebels could escape: it makes no sense for the superior force to flee. Pretty much every rebel personality was on that fleet - it also consisted of most/all of their heavy ships. The Imperial fleet command might have been disorganised, but that's what chains of command are for. The fact is that despite their losses, the Imperials were in a strong position and their retreat doomed them.

The 'objective' for Death Squadron was simply to hold the rebels. Once the DS2 was destroyed, how does that translate into 'run away like little girls'? None of the officers who retreated or ordered retreats would have *ever* been able to justify their decision in the face of inferior enemy forces. They abandoned the Endor troops, any escape pods, and all their aviators in TIEs.

Endor might be worthless, but the field was not. Destruction of the rebel fleet would have killed

1) Han, Chewie, Luke and Leia, all their 'heroes'
2) Reikaan, Akbar, and most of their military leaders
3) Mon Mothma, and their remaining political legitimacy

A total victory was within Imperial grasp, and P. ordered a retreat. I say again, he deserves a court martial. The fact that other ships had retreated earlier doesn't excuse him from calling for a complete withdrawl. Indeed, four or five salvos of HTLs in the general direction of Endor would've killed Han, Chewie, Leia and perhaps Luke. All the Imperial troops would've been captured anyway.

[Tiriol]

Thanks, Darth Chronos.

Pellaeon's decision was poor, I agree - the Imperial fleet could still have defeated the Rebel fleet.

BUT...

The Emperor was dead and RotJ novelization described how the dark side energies, unleashed upon his death, played havoc upon the Imperials' mind, causing confusion, fear and uncertainty. Grand Admiral Declann no longer used the battle meditation which even further diminished the Imperials' fighting spirit (and HttE and WotC's Dark Side Sourcebook both agree that the dark side's version of battle meditation imposes a certain penalty upon those who were affected by it after the battle meditation is ended - fatigue, confusion, and downright exhaustion). The Death Star was destroyed and Executor was lost all hands aboard. The Rebels had engaged the Imperials in point-blank range as per Lando Calrissian's suggestion (he figured that neither side actually knows how to fight at point-blank range with supervessels like these, but if the Rebels would be the first ones to engage then the Imperials would think that the Rebels would actually know how to fight such battles) and caused even further uncertainty. Several ships, including the communication ship and some other Star Destroyers, had already been lost and the Rebels captured at least two of the other Destroyers. Some vessels had already deserted and some were in so bad shape that they couldn't continue the fight properly ("Supreme Warlord" Harssk's Star Destroyer, for example, suffered a heavy hit into its bridge and Harssk himself suffered equally heavy damage to his face).
True, the Imperials could have won, but thy were suffering from such confusion that even the command chain was unreliable and uncertain. The situation was abysmal in every possible way except for their greater forces and after the "human" factor was counted in, Pellaeon made his choice. It was a hasty choice, but Pellaeon had just seen his superior commander aboard Chimaera die and had seen the unbelieable devastation caused by the Rebels against overwhelming odds. And apparently many thought as he did, since so many left with him.

I think that Grand Vizier Pestage and later Director Isard didn't want to court martial Pellaeon, since he was most likely hailed as the one who saved the Endor task force from complete destruction (although they were humiliated so completely as it is possible) - bad PR among the military. However, neither of them promoted him, perhaps to remind him that he had made a poor choice according to their point of view.

[Crazedwraith]

Is Peallon supposed to have ordered the entire fleet to retreat? Or just the Chimera of which is was acting commander of?

[Tiriol]

Is Peallon supposed to have ordered the entire fleet to retreat? Or just the Chimera of which is was acting commander of?

He ordered a full retreat, which included the entire remaining Imperial fleet.

[Eframepilot]

Pellaeon was Dr. Watson to Thrawn's Sherlock Holmes. He only became a super-strategist in the NJO era thanks to the writers excessively glorifying him.

[Stark]

He apparently didn't just pull back himself, but sent a general call for withdrawl. This makes him worse than the simple cowards who retreated.

I simply don't understand how such a large group of ships, who so overwhelm their opponents, could run away like pussies. Sure, they're demoralised, they're confused, and the Admiral and comm ship are gone. But the rebels fleet is screwed - I'd be very, very surprised if the rebel ships were in better shape than the ISDs, considering the laughably small size of many of their ships - the rebel fighters are all but destroyed, and THE ENTIRE LEADERSHIP OF THE REBELS ARE RIGHT FUCKING THERE. Certainly, the crippled ships should have withdrawn, but how intimidating could a couple of Home Ones and various scattered cruisers and corvettes really be?

And regardless of extenuating circumstances, it is *inarguable* that the Imperial retreat was a huge wasted (or lost) opportunity. This is how it should always be viewed, and the blame for the wholesale retreat can be squarely placed on P. Thus, he should be put before a court martial. Modern historians would pillory him just as I am if such an officer gave such an order in our world. He doesn't appear to be totally insane like Daala, merely appallingly stupid.

[Lord Revan]

the Soviets lost 2 battalions to finns during the winter war (139-1940) dispite having both numerical and equipment superiority because of poorly planned and conducted operations.

also why would we assume that Mon Mothma or any of Alliance political leadership was present at the battle.

and where do you get that most of rebel starfighters were destroyed?

also the liberty types can harm ISDs and most (if not all) rebel starfighter types carry torps/missiles

and then there's fact that as far as I know there's no Interdictor present at Endor so nothing doesn't stop the rebelfleet from punching it way thru (with comm ship and fleet command ship lost it's possible that the imperial can plug the hole in time)

and then there's the fact that we assume that Palleon has full knowllage of the rebel fleet present which quite frankly doesn't seem porbable to me, it's a lot more probable that Palleon only knew that it was atypically large rebel fleet and that his orders where to safeguard DS2 and keep the rebel from escaping (his not flag officer at this time so he doesn't need to know that much to do his job)

[Ace Pace]

and where do you get that most of rebel starfighters were destroyed?

Truce at Bakura mentioned that most of the rebel fleet, starfighters among them, were heavily damaged, all that could be spared was an Escort carrier and a collection of fighters

[Lord Revan]

and where do you get that most of rebel starfighters were destroyed?

Truce at Bakura mentioned that most of the rebel fleet, starfighters among them, were heavily damaged, all that could be spared was an Escort carrier and a collection of fighters

heavily damaged is not the same thing as destroyed during a battle,the (suriviving) Imperial fleet at Endor was probably not undamaged either and it's possible if not probable that Imperial ships kept on fighting until they jumped to lightspeed.

unless somebody can prove that
a)majority of the rebel fleet disabled and/or destroyed c)that Palleon knew this c)that Palleon knew that the rebel high command was present d) that rebel fleet would focus it attack on part of imperial fleet and break thru if faced with destrouction.

I see no reason to dis Palleon.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Unlawful circumventation of the chain of command deserves court martial by definition.

There is the matter that Pelleaon took five decades to make post captain; to become the XO of a Star Destroyer.

[Lord Revan]

Unlawful circumventation of the chain of command deserves court martial by definition.

There is the matter that Pelleaon took five decades to make post captain; to become the XO of a Star Destroyer.

with that I agree, but this intresting who was the next in chain of command (we do know it wasn't Palleon though IIRC his CO was dead)?

my problem was never with Palleaon by passing the chain command to give order that was against the rules, but I do think that somebody should have given that order and since the imperial fleet did obey Palleaon we can assume that officer that were senior to him did agree.

[Lazarus]

Thrawn has the grasp of unusual tatics and is the less conventional of the two. Palleon has the better record and a much nicer relationship with his men which in turn means they have a much better flow. But Palleon would be my choice due to his lifetime's worth of experience and good tatics backed up with the one shot affairs Thrawn favored.

It is stated in The Last Command that the men under Thrawns command would die for him, which I would say equates to a pretty strong bond between him and the men under his command.
I don't think you can really put Thrawn down for being a bit fanwanky in his strategic genius, considering most of the major SW characters are a good deal worse. Why can't there be one person in however many trillion inhabit the galaxy, who has an incredibly rare skill in strategy and tactics? Luke Skywalker seems to be invulnerable to death of any kind, be it thousands of stormtroopers, vacuum, explosions etc, but its ok, cos he's a jedi...
Thrawn is my favourite SW character, with Pellaeon or Wedge coming second. As for Pellaeon ordering the retreat, and not receiving a court martial, perhaps it was lost amongst the chaos after Endor, along with the counterattack which logically should have happened when the Rebel fleet decided to just sit in Endor orbit, or at the very least the slagging of Endor. I know I wouldn't have hesitated to BDZ Endor, I'm sure an Imperial commander wouldn't.
I have no doubt that if two factors had been prevented, the Empire would have been taken to victory by Thrawn. Firstly, Leia gets shot or somehow else killed on Honhger, stopping the Noghri rebellion. Secondly, Thrawn sends the spec ops team to Coruscant, not with orders to capture the Solo twins, but just to nuke the place, meanwhile spacing C'Boath, he'd reached the end of his useful life anyway.
This means no more rebel leadership, no Wayland strike force, no Rukh backstabbing, and surely eventual victory. The Reborn Emperor would have returned, but then died due to the faults in his cloned bodies, leaving Thrawn in overall command, then just crush or incorporate the warlords, and prepare for the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, which Thrawn may or may not know about from his time in the Unknown regions. Either way, under these conditions I'm sure the Vong would be more easily defeated.

[Sharp-kun]

He apparently didn't just pull back himself, but sent a general call for withdrawl. This makes him worse than the simple cowards who retreated.

Out of interest, why would other commanders follow his order? Surely there's procedures in place that prevent any officer from issuing fleet commands?

THE ENTIRE LEADERSHIP OF THE REBELS ARE RIGHT FUCKING THERE.

Were they? Mon Mothma and co were on at Sullust, but did they actually go into battle? What good would they do?

Also, if so, were the Imperials aware of this stupidity?

but how intimidating could a couple of Home Ones and various scattered cruisers and corvettes really be?

We see ISD's going down even before the loss of the command ship and DSII (such as when Ackbar gives his command to concentrate all fire). Despite being outmatched, they could do damage. Given the chaos afterwards, I wouldn't dismiss them so easily.

and the blame for the wholesale retreat can be squarely placed on P.

What about the other commanders that followed this order?

[Faqa]

It was explicitly spelled out in the RotJ novelization AND HttE. The Imp forces had just recieved a severe mind-fucking from Palpy's death. Pellaon kept his head and did the best thing he could under the circumstances(which were that they were losing, and badly, even if he couldn't determine why).

Though Thrawn may have been more successful, he did outsmart himself in the end, at TWO vital junctures -

A - Discovering unkosherness on Khabarakh's ship, and NOT just tearing the village apart with stormies to find it. Even then, just abandoning the whole issue was, well, dumb. If he'd been a bit less fancy, he could've just grabbed Leia cold on the Noghri homeworld.

B - That ridiculous charade with Mara. Just fucking kill her, dumbass, instead of casting temporary suspicion on her. One slit throat on the way to the objective, and C'baoth might raise a ruckus on Wayland, but the outpost WILL survive.

In short, Thrawn over-relied on fancy tricks and dramatic psychology. So I'll take Pellaon.

[Lord Pounder]

In defence of Pellaeons actions at Endor. Several Star Destroyers where destroyed, the Executor destroyed and IIRC 2 Star Destroyers where captured intact. So the remaining Imperials where not 18 Destroyers strong as suggested. Also take into account the Imperials where fighting a type of battle they can't have been prepared for. Pellaeon did the right thing, if they Fleet had kept on fighting they way they where they may have lost the whole Battle Group, losing more ships intact strengthening the Rebels.

[Noble Ire]

In defence of Pellaeons actions at Endor. Several Star Destroyers where destroyed, the Executor destroyed and IIRC 2 Star Destroyers where captured intact. So the remaining Imperials where not 18 Destroyers strong as suggested. Also take into account the Imperials where fighting a type of battle they can't have been prepared for. Pellaeon did the right thing, if they Fleet had kept on fighting they way they where they may have lost the whole Battle Group, losing more ships intact strengthening the Rebels.

Not to mention the death of the Emperor and the battle-mediation Grand Admiral would have markedly decreased the operational abilities of virtually everyone in the fleet, perhaps even casting them into confusion. In such a state, espcecially if you did not know why it was happening, I think it would be fool-hardy to continue the battle. Pellaeon is not the most brilliant tactical commander ever, but he is sensible, and stable.

[Stark]

The fighters were destroyed because Akbar orders 'all fighers' to attack the DS2. How many came out? Five? Wow, that'll put a dent in the thousands of TIEs.

The Imperials lost ISDs before the DS2 was destroyed ... because they were under orders not to fight. If someone with a spine had taken control and launched a counterattack, total victory was within their grasp.

I admit I figured Mothma et al would've been too stupid to leave Home One after the briefing.

Pounder, they had 24-ish ISDs. I simply don't believe that the 2 captured were captured before the destruction of the DS2, as that would be difficult to imagine. They lost the Executor, the 'comm ship' and at least two more: that leaves around 16-20. Sorry. Capturing the ISDs is far more likely to be grabbing crippled ships when everyone else bugs out without organisation.

Ire, if he's NOT an idiot, why didn't he order a single barrage laid on the site of the shield generator? It would have changed history. He didn't coordinate a withdrawl: he ran away. If the Imps had counterattacked with their remaining operational ships later - or even at Bakura - again, total victory was availible. Instead, his 'run away like lamers' order meant that there was no response to the rebels at all. Even WW1 generals were smarter than THAT.

I think it's funny that this is a comparison between a wildly successful commander who eventually lost and a worthless (50 years to make post captain) cowardly (ran like a little girl at Endor) stupid (worked with Daala) creature who, as far as I know, was responsible for no major victories and many major losses. So Thrawn lost eventually: who cares? If they had more officers like him, and less like P. they'd be better off.

EDIT - Pounder, it's THE EMPIRE. If they'd lost every single ship at Endor, but destroyed the rebel fleet, it would've been a victory. The rebellion would've basically been stopped, with all their heroes and their largest ships destroyed. In a fleet of thousands of ISDs, every officer on that fleet should have known this.