Rebel CIS ships

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-01-21 07:17pm

Obviously, outside of SoD, the Rebel Alliance didn't use Recusant destroyers or Munificent frigates, let alone Providence destroyers because they weren't created yet.

But inside SoD, why didn't the rebels take advantage of these ships. At the end of the Clone Wars, when the droid army was deactivated, scores of these ships and their droid armies and flight groups were deactivated and left were ever they happened to be.

Republic/Imperial forces spent some time collecting these things up for (supposedly) destruction. However, it was at this very time that Mon Mothma and Bail Organa were organizing the first whipsers of the Alliance. They were both Senators, why not finigle a couple if not more, of these ships for the rebel cause.

You'd think that they'd be perfect for the cause, since they were mainly droid driven and didn't not require thousands of crew to operate. Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, has a small group of pirates/Jedi cranking one up and driving it towards a Stardestroyer. Obviously, a small crew to command the thing is needed, but again, that'll play right into what the Rebel's would need.

I can see that early on, the notion of using the ships the CIS used to wage war on the Republic might be tastless, yet the Empire would go on to do worse things, and yet the Rebels use Imperial ships and equipment when they could.

So honestly, with a galactic, large scale war 20 before, with large stashes or caches of weapons and ships, mainly droid made and driven, why didn't the rebels use them to fill out their fleets/armies?

AK_Jedi · Post by **AK_Jedi** » 2006-01-21 07:30pm

Like you said, Dark Lord featured a small crew hijacking a CIS ship. However, they did have considerable difficulty controlling it. That may have been from the hacker's ineptitude, so a more experienced hacker may have been able to control the ship completely.

Also, IIRC, the book has a reference to many CIS ships and war material being scavenged by pirates, smuglers, etc. This means that there may have been a significant number of ships in service with pirate fleets. By the time the rebels got their infrastructure in place, they may all have been spoken for.

Another explaination could be that most of the ships were parked at secret bases or in deep space. As evidenced by the katana fleet, finding ships in deep interstellar space is very difficult.

I know these theories are reaching a bit, but those are the ideas that I could come up with.

Jack Bauer · Post by **Jack Bauer** » 2006-01-21 08:23pm

The earliest missions for the newly minted Imperial Starfleet were to hunt down and round up all the remaining ships and weapons in the Confederacy's arsenal. I believe this was mentioned in both Dark Lord and the Republic comics.

This was a very sound policy. By doing so, the Empire was denying the use of these ships to any resistance or mercenary groups. It's safe to assume that most CIS ships were either scrapped or recycled back into the Imperial Navy.

As a result of this policy, it would make sense for Mon Mothma and Bail Organa to turn to Mon Calamari for their shipbuilding needs, if only out of necessity.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-01-21 08:24pm

Most of the CIS leftovers were sized by the Empire. The rest, undoubtly various local interests. By the time of ANH there might not be much around to use - besides, why would the rebels want to seem affiliated with the CIS even remotely, considering what a reputation they must have had as the losers of the CWs.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2006-01-21 08:27pm

nightmare wrote:Most of the CIS leftovers were sized by the Empire. The rest, undoubtly various local interests. By the time of ANH there might not be much around to use - besides, why would the rebels want to seem affiliated with the CIS even remotely, considering what a reputation they must have had as the losers of the CWs.

That and, you know, the slaughter of billions and the burning of entire worlds

Jack Bauer · Post by **Jack Bauer** » 2006-01-21 08:34pm

I think the absence of CIS ships in the Alliance arsenal has nothing to do with reputation (after all, the Rebels had no qualms about using Imperial ships like the Nebulon-B frigate even after the Empire had destroyed Alderaan).

Its more likely that there were no Confederate ships left out in the market for the Rebels to acquire by the time of the Coreillian Treaty.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2006-01-21 08:56pm

Its possible that converting them to normal crew rather than battle droid was more work then they were worth so they simply scavenged the ships for the usefull stuff like Turbolasers and power generators

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2006-01-21 08:57pm

The Rebel Alliance may also have lacked the industrial infrastructure to maintain a covert fleet in the begining.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-01-21 11:02pm

Also, the Rebels could have had a few CIS ships at the beginning, but by the time of ANH all of them were destroyed. There is after all a 20 year gap, and a lot can happen in 20 years. Plus, it would make sense for the Rebels to have lost ships before ANH considering they score their first major victory just before ANH according to opening crawl.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-01-22 01:13am

Order 66 wrote:The earliest missions for the newly minted Imperial Starfleet were to hunt down and round up all the remaining ships and weapons in the Confederacy's arsenal. I believe this was mentioned in both Dark Lord and the Republic comics.

This was a very sound policy. By doing so, the Empire was denying the use of these ships to any resistance or mercenary groups. It's safe to assume that most CIS ships were either scrapped or recycled back into the Imperial Navy.

As a result of this policy, it would make sense for Mon Mothma and Bail Organa to turn to Mon Calamari for their shipbuilding needs, if only out of necessity.

Organa and Mothma were infulencial memebers of the Senate even after the 'declaration of the Empire'. If 'local' pirates and 'interests' can seize these vessels, why can't uber powerful politicians?

Post by **Coyote** » 2006-01-22 01:22am

I'd wager that the CIS ships, by the time of the Rebellion, were hoplessly outclassed by Imperial ships. You also get into the interesting question of whether or not the Rebellion is the ideological heir to the CIS.

On the surface it seems to be the case, with Mothma and Organa opposing the war and questioning it from the beginning, as well as Padme-- one of the people over whom the first shots were fired-- questioning whether or not they were fighting for the right side... but it means admitting to carrying on an allegiance for something that was led by a Dark Lord, count Dooku, a traitorous Jedi and a catspaw of Palpatine.

If word of that got out, it would damage the credibility of the Rebellion. People would wonder if the leaders of the Rebellion were secretly taking orders from Palpy to supply him with a constant excuse for control, power, and war.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-01-22 01:27am

Coyote wrote:I'd wager that the CIS ships, by the time of the Rebellion, were hoplessly outclassed by Imperial ships. You also get into the interesting question of whether or not the Rebellion is the ideological heir to the CIS.

On the surface it seems to be the case, with Mothma and Organa opposing the war and questioning it from the beginning, as well as Padme-- one of the people over whom the first shots were fired-- questioning whether or not they were fighting for the right side... but it means admitting to carrying on an allegiance for something that was led by a Dark Lord, count Dooku, a traitorous Jedi and a catspaw of Palpatine.

If word of that got out, it would damage the credibility of the Rebellion. People would wonder if the leaders of the Rebellion were secretly taking orders from Palpy to supply him with a constant excuse for control, power, and war.

I can't buy that. In fact, the idea that Dooku (or Sidious by that matter) actually did rebel, is importent. He was the litmus test, the straw that broke the camels back.

For over a thousand years, the Republic did not see a major war until the Sepertists came along. And withstanding, that it was made under a Sith Lord, they did have a point. They made a precedent. They showed that you can stand up to a Galactic goverment.

The idea that they (the Alliance) won't use Clone War material because of the stigma of the Clone Wars is silly, in spite of the fact that the Empire goes on to commit worst acts against the galaxy and the rebels use those ships/tech/manufacturers/shit.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2006-01-22 04:13am

My theory is that the ships where found, and then taken apart to arm and armour the first generation of Mon Cal Cruisers. The Rebel Alliance wheren't that rich but the guns they used had to come from somewhere.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-01-22 04:18am

Lord Pounder wrote:My theory is that the ships where found, and then taken apart to arm and armour the first generation of Mon Cal Cruisers. The Rebel Alliance wheren't that rich but the guns they used had to come from somewhere.

I can understand that, even if I don't agree with it. According to the ICS, Squid heads did work on CIS ships, so Mon Calamari, who live on the same planet, would be a logical choice to continue their work.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-01-22 05:46am

My theory is that the ships where found, and then taken apart to arm and armour the first generation of Mon Cal Cruisers. The Rebel Alliance wheren't that rich but the guns they used had to come from somewhere.

I agree, considering that the Mon Cal cruisers were supposedly liners, they seem to perform remarkebly well against front line combat ships. A link could logically be made between a P&O cruise ship getting guns put on it and going up against HMS Liverpool. If the Mon Cals stripped the CIS ships, and integrated the systems into their vessels it explains how cruise liners could possibly go toe to toe with Star Destroyers.
As far as fighters are concerned, the Trade Federation stopped using live piloted vessels before Naboo when the Scarabs went out of service. Perhaps the Rebels simply stripped the fighters for their weapons and other equipment, and armed freighters and other such vessels with the spoils.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-01-22 07:28am

Also the rebels use a number of Dreadnaught-class "cruisers", a ship type we both the Republic and the CIS used, so it's possible that the Alliance siezed control of some of these ship and simply repainted them.

Jack Bauer · Post by **Jack Bauer** » 2006-01-22 06:00pm

Knife wrote:Organa and Mothma were infulencial memebers of the Senate even after the 'declaration of the Empire'. If 'local' pirates and 'interests' can seize these vessels, why can't uber powerful politicians?

Those who immediately seized Separatist hardware during the first chaotic days after Order 66 would eventually feel the weight of the entire Empire come down on them. Since pirates were able to seize them, it could have been possible that Organa and Mothma secreted away a small fleet of ships that could have included CIS vessels.

However, old Confederacy gear remained high profile commodities due to their prior histories and blacklisted status by the Empire. It would be reasonably difficult and dangerous for rogue Senators to start amassing them in bulk, despite their connections. It would attract the very kind of unwanted attention that the fledgling Rebellion could not afford to have.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2006-01-23 02:03am

However, old Confederacy gear remained high profile commodities due to their prior histories and blacklisted status by the Empire. It would be reasonably difficult and dangerous for rogue Senators to start amassing them in bulk, despite their connections. It would attract the very kind of unwanted attention that the fledgling Rebellion could not afford to have.

I would be hugely suprised if CIS "gear" was so dissimiliar as to be eye-brow raising in the manner you suggest. CIS ships do not look all that different from Republic/Imperial ships or other ships of that era, in my opinion, either in terms of their overall appearance or in terms of their specific details-in fact, on the CIS dreadnaught that Palpatine was "rescued" from, the interior of the ship was hugely reminiscent of that of the Death Star and other Imperial ships in the OT-the only noticeably different portion was the bridge.

I would speculate that considering the CIS more or less went from having several seperate fleets of merchant ships to having one sort of collective space force on a massive scale, within the space of a year or so, a massive amount of off-the-shelf parts and open standard technologies were used to expedite the construction of new ships and the retrofit of existing merchant ships into war machines. Relatively little is likely to be so proprietary as to raise attention under the Empire.

I think its highly likely that not only were many CIS ships seized and used by the Empire in its formative years, but that others found their way into the hands of the rebellion. By the time of the OT, of course, CIS ships would be largely outclassed in terms of performance and so on, so I also like the idea of them in essence being scrapped to provide material for converting the Mon Cal cruisers into warships. Another possibility is that some of the Rebel ships we did see in the OT had at one time or another belonged to the CIS-I wouldn't be suprised if the CIS owned a few Correllian corvettes or similiar ships for fast transport purposes.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-01-23 03:25am

The assumption that various groups would have had equal opportunities to acquire derelict CIS warships is based on another assumption: that the Empire didn't know where they all were.

It's possible that Palpatine had access to complete logs of the state and location of every single CIS ship, and/or the means to immediately locate them. If this was the case, it's likely the Empire would have grabbed almost every single ship.

Also, apparently many people still don't understand the technological plateau that SW civilization has reached, judging by statements that Clone Wars era warships are "outdated" or "outclassed".

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-01-23 09:24am

Balrog wrote:That and, you know, the slaughter of billions and the burning of entire worlds

IIRC, the Republic also did this, though after the CIS started it. The winner writes the history books.

Cykeisme wrote:Also, apparently many people still don't understand the technological plateau that SW civilization has reached, judging by statements that Clone Wars era warships are "outdated" or "outclassed".

They are. Is there any doubt whatsoever that Acclamators and Venators, supposedly superior to their CIS counterparts, would be scorched alive by VSDs and ISDs?

Order 66 wrote:I think the absence of CIS ships in the Alliance arsenal has nothing to do with reputation (after all, the Rebels had no qualms about using Imperial ships like the Nebulon-B frigate even after the Empire had destroyed Alderaan).

The Empire had almost total control over information. Alderaan was hardly pur forth as an atrocity; the CIS took full blame for the CW, which was the whole excuse to build the Empire.

Order 66 wrote:Its more likely that there were no Confederate ships left out in the market for the Rebels to acquire by the time of the Coreillian Treaty.

The CSA had some 3000-year old ships in service. CIS Clone War ships must have existed in vastly larger numbers. It would be odd at the very least for none of them to turn up on the black market.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-01-24 07:11am

Nightmare wrote:They are. Is there any doubt whatsoever that Acclamators and Venators, supposedly superior to their CIS counterparts, would be scorched alive by VSDs and ISDs?

Yes, but they'd have lower maintenance, resource and crewing requirements. In much the same way, Nebulon-Bs would be scorched by ISDs, but the Alliance still deploys them.
They are of a smaller class of vessel, but they're still of the same technological base. They are by no means useless, and certainly not outdated.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-01-24 07:17am

also IIRC in one on one situation a VnSD has a fair chance of defeating a VSD.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-01-24 02:23pm

Lucrehulks and droidekas were aquired by the CSA after the Wars, and private businesses (read: gangsters) got hold of Vulture droids. Then there's all the paramilitary groups scavenging droid-controlled warships immidiately after their crews are shut down, and you've got quite alot of potential for future stories with Alliance groups using Separatist ships.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2006-01-24 08:10pm

Wait till you guys play Empire at War.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2006-01-25 04:45pm

Cykeisme wrote:The assumption that various groups would have had equal opportunities to acquire derelict CIS warships is based on another assumption: that the Empire didn't know where they all were.

It's possible that Palpatine had access to complete logs of the state and location of every single CIS ship, and/or the means to immediately locate them. If this was the case, it's likely the Empire would have grabbed almost every single ship.

Also, apparently many people still don't understand the technological plateau that SW civilization has reached, judging by statements that Clone Wars era warships are "outdated" or "outclassed".

Agreed. If Palpatine could get Anakin to simply switch off the battle droids, finding the ships should be easy. There might be a few stashed away somewhere, but since none are present in the OT, they were either lost, destroyed or scavenged.