Thrawn or Palleon?

[Sharp-kun]

The fighters were destroyed because Akbar orders 'all fighers' to attack the DS2. How many came out? Five? Wow, that'll put a dent in the thousands of TIEs.

Clearly not, since some remained to take on the Executor.

The Imperials lost ISDs before the DS2 was destroyed ... because they were under orders not to fight. If someone with a spine had taken control and launched a counterattack, total victory was within their grasp.

When the fight was underway we see the Imperials trading shots with rebel cap ships (the scene with the Nebulon-B passing the destroyer). They were engaged. Once the two fleets moved in together there was no reason not to hold fire, since the Death Star could no longer fire safely.

Ire, if he's NOT an idiot, why didn't he order a single barrage laid on the site of the shield generator? It would have changed history. He didn't coordinate a withdrawl: he ran away. If the Imps had counterattacked with their remaining operational ships later - or even at Bakura - again, total victory was availible. Instead, his 'run away like lamers' order meant that there was no response to the rebels at all. Even WW1 generals were smarter than THAT.

He didn't want to bombard his own troops? He had no way of knowing how many were left or what had gone on down there.

More than that, how would he even know Luke, Leia etc were down there? As far as he knew, it was just a bunch of commandos. A target, but worth taking out your own troops for?

[Noble Ire]

Ire, if he's NOT an idiot, why didn't he order a single barrage laid on the site of the shield generator? It would have changed history. He didn't coordinate a withdrawl: he ran away. If the Imps had counterattacked with their remaining operational ships later - or even at Bakura - again, total victory was availible. Instead, his 'run away like lamers' order meant that there was no response to the rebels at all. Even WW1 generals were smarter than THAT.

Why the fuck would he bombard the shield generator? He had no idea what was going on down there, for all he knew, everyone had died when it blew up. And even if he didn't know, why would he waste turbolaser shots to kill a small Rebel strike team and some ewoks; no one knew Han and Leia were down there.

I will admit, the lack of a counter attack is a bit odd, but I would maintain that was not in Pellaeon's hands. Remember, Pellaeon never actually had the official authority to command the fleet, and he only was able to divert the remnant at Endor because the rest of the ships were disoranized, desperate for orders, and probably on the verge of fleeing themselves. When they got to the nearest Imperial outpost, no doubt he would have lost whatever impromptu authority he had in the battle. The ranking officer decided not to return, for reasons unknown.

I think it's funny that this is a comparison between a wildly successful commander who eventually lost and a worthless (50 years to make post captain) cowardly (ran like a little girl at Endor) stupid (worked with Daala) creature who, as far as I know, was responsible for no major victories and many major losses. So Thrawn lost eventually: who cares? If they had more officers like him, and less like P. they'd be better off.

Honestly, you always scream and cry about "wank", but now that were talking about someone who isn't "teh uber tactianz!!" you scream little girl? He just witnessed a planetary base, the fleet's command ship, at least three heavy warships, and theoretically unstoppable space station, with the Empire entire command structure on it, all destroyed by an undeniably weaker force, on top a sudden and significant decrease in moral and coordinantion of virtually everyone around him. While in the long run it was not the best choice, it was prefectly valid for him to order a withdrawl (which, technically, no one had to follow, and the fact that they did suggests that they were of the same mindset).

I'm not saying that Pellaeon is a better commander than Thrawn, but he is nonetheless a decent and stable officer, and hardly a coward.

[Anguirus]

The fighters were destroyed because Akbar orders 'all fighers' to attack the DS2. How many came out? Five? Wow, that'll put a dent in the thousands of TIEs.

This is demonstrably wrong on several levels.

Lando orders "Red Group, Gold Group, all fighters" to follow him. Two X-wings, two A-wings, and a Y-wing (the ones that have been following him throughout the battle) follow him all the way down into the Death Star. Assuming that there is more to Red Group and Gold Group, they could have been leading diversionary attacks on the surface offscreen.

While Lando's force is inside the Death Star, a large number of starfighters, including Green Leader, are attacking the Executor and engaging in dogfights visible from the bridge of the Home One.

Now, the last shot we see of the Rebel Starfleet shows us that the vast majority of it survived, including two or three Home Ones. The Imperials did a miserable job in the fight, for whatever reason you care to name, losing at the bare minimum six Destroyers and two larger ships. Pellaeon had no idea that bombarding the surface would do him any good, nor did he see that victory was in sight when the DS blew.

[JediMaster415]

On nobody thinking to bombard the moon: as I remember it, Moff Jerjorrod was turning the Death Star's superlaser on Endor as the fighters flew through it and blew it up.

[Agent Fisher]

With the "Red Group, Gold Group, all fighters" thing, Lando was addressing all the fighters in those two groups.

[NRS Guardian]

The fighters were destroyed because Akbar orders 'all fighers' to attack the DS2. How many came out? Five? Wow, that'll put a dent in the thousands of TIEs.

The Imperials lost ISDs before the DS2 was destroyed ... because they were under orders not to fight. If someone with a spine had taken control and launched a counterattack, total victory was within their grasp.

Pounder, they had 24-ish ISDs. I simply don't believe that the 2 captured were captured before the destruction of the DS2, as that would be difficult to imagine. They lost the Executor, the 'comm ship' and at least two more: that leaves around 16-20. Sorry. Capturing the ISDs is far more likely to be grabbing crippled ships when everyone else bugs out without organisation.

Ire, if he's NOT an idiot, why didn't he order a single barrage laid on the site of the shield generator? It would have changed history. He didn't coordinate a withdrawl: he ran away. If the Imps had counterattacked with their remaining operational ships later - or even at Bakura - again, total victory was availible. Instead, his 'run away like lamers' order meant that there was no response to the rebels at all. Even WW1 generals were smarter than THAT.

I didn't see thousands of TIEs toward the end of the battle in fact it seemed to me a lot of the TIEs were destroyed at the beginning of the battle when they were sent in to attack the Rebel fleet without support. Also, if there were more TIEs at Endor why didn't they send more to protect the DSII from fighters when its shields went down considering the safety of the DSII should have been the Empire's highest priority.

Concerning, RL commanders being smarter, that would have to be a no. Admiral Kurita had the 7th Fleet and invasion force in the palm of his hand during the Battle of Leyte Gulf with reinforcements hours away, yet let his forces get out of control and chaos breed. With the result of 6 CVEs and 7 DDs and DEs forcing him to retreat to reestablish command of his forces which wasted critical time he could have been using to bombard Leyte and defeating the covering forces. Sound familiar?
Plus, during the Guadalcanal skirmishes the Japanese retreated after chaotic night actions when they had the ability to bombard American forces on the island, with the chance of putting Henderson Field out of action long enough to give the Japanese daylight supremacy.

Now yes, many of the commanders that ordered these retreats were beached. However, similar things in situations similar to those faced by Pellaeon have happened IRL with simialr results. This isn't mentioning the C&C failures of the British Grand Fleet during WWI, or Halsey's C3 failures which led Kurita to having a shot at Leyte.
Even the best commanders have a bad day and make stupid decisions in the heat of the moment.

[Stark]

This is getting off topic, but I'll clear some things up.

I thought I remembered Akbar ordering all the fighters in: it appears he didn't. So the rebels have some fighters left. I believe most of the inital fighters were destroyed, but the DS2 took forever to cook off. All the standby pilots would have got away, and depending on the warmup time many more may have escaped. But hey, they were all abandoned by P. with the escape craft, so neh.

The Nebulon-B shooting at Executor is a bad example, but the fleets were certainly engaged in the latter half of the battle. They couldn't maneuveur to keep range and use their firepower advantage due to the blocking nature of their deployment, and after the DS2 went up this was no longer necessary.

'Not bombarding your own troops' is a terrible reason to throw away the only possible objective available. He was already running away, abandoning all the pilots, lifeboats and troops: blasting the shield site (which was OBVIOUSLY where the rebels were) would've killed their ground forces, and call me crazy but I think Imperial Intelligence would know likely leadership for such an operation. The Sith didn't bother telling anyone the plan, so they may not have known how many celebrities were down there. It must be frustrating being part of a system where the Emperor can feed the rebels all kinds of crazy intel, but the commanders don't even know likely rebel dispositions.

The RL commanders mentioned are all pilloried for their poor decisions, and all let substantial victories escape them. They all lost opportunities. How does comparing him to failures make P. seem better? When does he have a 'good' day, and why should we ignore this massive - illegal - failure?

I maintain that P. is a moron and a coward, and that AT WORST Thrawn is average, but he has executed large, *successful* operations. He had a bit of the 'consorting with lunatics' problem P. had (not as bad as Daala, but honestly) but I don't know if P. ever had significant victories attributed to him: every time I hear his name it's associated with disaster and failure, or having a crap career, or breaking the chain of command, etc. If you think that's better than a sometimes-wildly successful, always decent Admiral, then fine.

[Knife]

For the record, Stark, I agree with you. Reguardless of the DS and the Emperor. Reguardless of the Battle Meditation, the Imperials should have won at Endor.

The Empire was not structured to survive without Palpatine, yet the military machine should have (and did) survive Palpatine. The Imperial force was blocking an escape route out of Endor, (something like Coruscant ~20 years earlier) and even with the destruction of the DS, they still had the advantage of numbers and the advantage of position that they could have at the mininum; made the rebel fleet suffer a shit load of casualties on it's way out rather than a full Imperial retreat.

I chalk it up to 'rebel wank'. The type of shit that later makes Thrawn look like he's smart, rather than the shit tactician that he actualy is.

[NRS Guardian]

In my comparing P. to RL commanders I was refuting your argument that RL commanders (specifically WWI generals) are smarter than P. because there are plenty of RL examples of high-ranking commanders making decisions just as stupid as the one P. made. P's good days are his post-Daala and NJO victoies. Also, I admitted that many of the RL commanders were beached (put safely behind a desk) especially the Japanese COs at Guadalcanal. That's all I was saying, because I do believe Thrawn is easily the better commander. I just don't believe P. is a coward just under-aggressive for a warship commander.

[Noble Ire]

'Not bombarding your own troops' is a terrible reason to throw away the only possible objective available. He was already running away, abandoning all the pilots, lifeboats and troops: blasting the shield site (which was OBVIOUSLY where the rebels were) would've killed their ground forces, and call me crazy but I think Imperial Intelligence would know likely leadership for such an operation. The Sith didn't bother telling anyone the plan, so they may not have known how many celebrities were down there. It must be frustrating being part of a system where the Emperor can feed the rebels all kinds of crazy intel, but the commanders don't even know likely rebel dispositions.

Again, why would he bother? We don't even know if the space forces knew why the shields collapsed, and even if they did know that, why would they assume that they stuck around the crater that was once the generator. The mission may very well have been a suicide attack, or strike force might have had the means to escape the site quickly. Bombarding the area would only serve to kill the remaining Imperial troops on Endor, with only an iffy possiblity of killing some unknown rebels. Hardly worth it, especially with a functional fleet still opposing you.

As to the rest, NRS sums it up. Pellaeon was hardly perfect, and not as skilled as Thrawn, but he was competent, and won his share of victories later on.

[Stark]

I wasn't saying you were wrong to point out similar missed opportunities in RL: simply that I'm treating P. the same way that people like Jellicoe are treated by historians. I'm not going to ignore a cataclysmic decision (that from my perspective as a non-EU reader would seem to be the beginning of the end of the Empire, since everyone fragmented after the retreat) simply because he did better later. I don't know anything about his NJO career: what did he get up to?

I brand him a coward because instead of following orders, or safeguarding his ship and crew (since I don't think the Chimera was critically damaged) he not only absented himself from the battle but sent out a general call for retreat, further confusing a chaotic situation and spreading panic. He deserves disgrace and - in the post-Endor Imperial atmosphere - probably death.

EDIT - Ire, I'm actually going to start a thread about POWs in SW, since I don't know what happened to all the Imperial troops interned by the rebels. However, any starship with SW sensors would have detected the explosion of the shield generator bunker. Indeed, since the communication appears to be so bad, that explosion should have suggested that all Imperial forces were dead, scattered or captured, so the area was rebel-held and thus a target. However, this is reliant on what happens to POWs, since P. also abandoned escape pods and aviators, and they all must have gone SOMEWHERE.

[Jason von Evil]

He called the retreat at Endor. He wasn't in command, or even next in command. His order lost the battle.

And I thought Daala got killed after her ridiculous attempts to be king. Oh well.

If I remember correctly, the Chimaera was supposed to take command in the event that the DSII and Executor were destroyed. The guy in command of the Chimaera was killed and Palleon simply took command and ordered a retreat. Keep in mind that when Palpatine "died", his battle meditation (and the BM of Grand Admiral Declann, if he was using it) wore off. In Heir to the Empire, Thrawn explains that was the reason why the Empire fragmented so quickly and why the Imperial Forces had gotten so shitty.

[Noble Ire]

I brand him a coward because instead of following orders, or safeguarding his ship and crew (since I don't think the Chimera was critically damaged) he not only absented himself from the battle but sent out a general call for retreat, further confusing a chaotic situation and spreading panic. He deserves disgrace and - in the post-Endor Imperial atmosphere - probably death.

Actually, I seem to recall the Pellaeon actually assumed command of the ship during the battle, after the captain was killed (correct me on this if I'm wrong.) That would seem to indicate that the Chimera may in fact have been fairly bad shape. As to the rest, I've already explained why I think he was justified; repeating it again will serve little purpose.

EDIT - Ire, I'm actually going to start a thread about POWs in SW, since I don't know what happened to all the Imperial troops interned by the rebels. However, any starship with SW sensors would have detected the explosion of the shield generator bunker. Indeed, since the communication appears to be so bad, that explosion should have suggested that all Imperial forces were dead, scattered or captured, so the area was rebel-held and thus a target. However, this is reliant on what happens to POWs, since P. also abandoned escape pods and aviators, and they all must have gone SOMEWHERE.

If I was a Star Destroyer commander, and I noted the reason that the shield had collapses was the facility's detonation, I would assume one of the following: 1) A starfighter managed to slip in under the shield and blow the place up, thus making bombardment moot, or 2) The Rebels were able to infiltrate the base, and either died in the explosion, or are already flying away, laughing their heads off. Since there obviously was no major troop landing, I wouldn't think of the possiblity that there were still a handful of troops in the immediate are. And even if I did, I don't think it would be particularly high on my list of targets, considering the presence of dozens of more evident, and dangerous, targets all around.

[Stark]

Ah, so he sent a call for retreat as the officer in command, who was dead. Then he's *definately* a criminal, since command would have devolved onto one of the other commanders present.

[Noble Ire]

Ah, so he sent a call for retreat as the officer in command, who was dead. Then he's *definately* a criminal, since command would have devolved onto one of the other commanders present.

Perhaps. Of course, that would be under Imperial law, which began to disintigerate after the battle. No doubt he overstepped his bounds (although I am curious as to just how he "ordered" the retreat, as they may have some bearing on the severity of his infraction) and a lot of people probably figured that out, but he was evidently competant enough to retain his command, for whatever reason.

[Stark]

I actually wonder if he avoided condemnation by attaching himself to one of the splinter groups? As you say, Imperial authority began to disintegrate immediately (I believe many ships at Endor went straight home and became warlords) so as long as he stuck with Daala or whoever he'd be safe from prosecution, and the rebels probably put up a statue for him.

As to how he ordered the retreat, I'm not sure. He could easily, however, simply stolen the captains code cylinders and given the orders by impersonating him. In any case, if he simply sent a message from Chimera the fleet would take it as an order from the acting commander.

[Noble Ire]

I actually wonder if he avoided condemnation by attaching himself to one of the splinter groups? As you say, Imperial authority began to disintegrate immediately (I believe many ships at Endor went straight home and became warlords) so as long as he stuck with Daala or whoever he'd be safe from prosecution, and the rebels probably put up a statue for him.

Maybe, although he may not have even had to do that. There was so much confusion after the battle that if he kept quiet, Pellaeon probably found it pretty easy to be forgotten amidst the mad dash by the local Moffs and Admirals to stake claims on Imperial assests.

As to how he ordered the retreat, I'm not sure. He could easily, however, simply stolen the captains code cylinders and given the orders by impersonating him. In any case, if he simply sent a message from Chimera the fleet would take it as an order from the acting commander.

Probably the latter. Think what you will of his combat record, Pellaeon seems to be a decently honorable and by-the-book man, I doubt he would have thought to try to cover his tracks with any sort of deciet. I suspect it may have simply been him seeing the battle take a bad turn, calling on nearby ships to break off, and having the order sweep over the whole fleet, other ships not bothering to try to check the command's validity, since I suspect many captains were similarly agitated, and looking for an official out. Still not strategically or legally defensible, but possible, and (I think) reasonable.

[Illuminatus Primus]

We know Admiral Harrsk survived until after the retreat; ipso facto the XO of the Chimaera was not in general command and issued a criminal command.

[Lazarus]

Concerning Pellaeons military victories, this from wookiepedia:
'Pellaeon took the now-reunified fleet and regrouped. Realizing that the Deep Core was no longer of any use, he led his forces out on a series of relatively successful offensive against the New Republic with the intention of fully stabilizing the remains of the Empire in early 13 ABY, eventually working his way to the resource-rich Mid and Outer Rim, including the sectors of space now known as the Imperial Remnant. During this offensive campaign, Pellaeon successfully absorbed into the Imperial Remnant the Pentastar Alignment and gained the late Grand Moff Ardus Kaine's Executor-class Star Dreadnought, the Reaper, making it his flagship. The most famous battle of this campaign was the Battle of Orinda where Pellaeon, the Reaper, and the Imperial fleet engaged General Wedge Antilles, the Star Dreadnought Lusankya, and Rogue Squadron.'
The Battle of Orinda was an Imperial victory, so clearly, to be able to defeat Antilles and the invincible pilot-wank Rogue Squadron is no small achievement.

I chalk it up to 'rebel wank'. The type of shit that later makes Thrawn look like he's smart, rather than the shit tactician that he actualy is.

How on earth is Thrawn even remotely a shit commander? Evidence? No? Maybe thats because he is probably the most successful Imperial commander ever, and managed to bring the NR almost to its knees, with what appeared to be very limited resources.

[Sharp-kun]

Ah, so he sent a call for retreat as the officer in command, who was dead. Then he's *definately* a criminal, since command would have devolved onto one of the other commanders present.

Then why did others follow him?

[FTeik]

We know Admiral Harrsk survived until after the retreat; ipso facto the XO of the Chimaera was not in general command and issued a criminal command.

Ehmm, wasn't then-Admiral Harrsk the FIRST to run at Endor?

[Tiriol]

I actually wonder if he avoided condemnation by attaching himself to one of the splinter groups? As you say, Imperial authority began to disintegrate immediately (I believe many ships at Endor went straight home and became warlords) so as long as he stuck with Daala or whoever he'd be safe from prosecution, and the rebels probably put up a statue for him.

As to how he ordered the retreat, I'm not sure. He could easily, however, simply stolen the captains code cylinders and given the orders by impersonating him. In any case, if he simply sent a message from Chimera the fleet would take it as an order from the acting commander.

Pellaeon remained loyal to the central goverment on Coruscant, as per New Essential Guide to Characters.

And I don't think that Pellaeon actually stole the code cylinders, there has been no indication that he did so. He simply ordered a retreat after seeing the massive chaos and destruction all around him and after witnessing his commanding officer die (since there has been no indication that Pellaeon received any promotions after Endor, he must already have had the rank of captain, so most likely his immediate superior and the commander of Chimaera was a line captain at least). And since others were just as disheartened as he was, just about everyone followed his command.

Pellaeon made a bad choice - exceedingly bad - and the Empire lost their chance to destroy the entire Rebel fleet: but no one disputed that order during that battle, not even the vaunted Grand Admirals or anyone among the superior officers still left alive. But I repeat: the dark side battle meditation's effect was over and it ALWAYS carries a heavy price. According to the WotC's Dark Side Sourcebook it imposes -6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity and halves the base land speed of all those who have received boosts to their fighting ability before. Game mechanics, I know, but it reflects the fact that the dark side battle meditation is very exhausting and fatiguing for those who experienced it and Thrawn also points it out in HttE. The Emperor's death had released a massive amount of dark side energies (as per RotJ novelization), causing even more confusion and sheer terror and uncertainty among the Imperials, which only worsened the effect of having the battle meditation cut off. Do you think that anyone could actually make an informed and reasonable decision, especially if your ship is being pounded upon by the Rebel fleet, you've just lost your commanding officer, the mighty and invincible Death Star is no more, Executor herself has been destroyed and several Star Destroyers have been wiped out or rendered useless?

[Stark]

Ah, so he sent a call for retreat as the officer in command, who was dead. Then he's *definately* a criminal, since command would have devolved onto one of the other commanders present.

Then why did others follow him?

Because he sent a message from the ship of the commander, and I doubt he bothered to say 'oh and the officer commanding is dead and I'm just some nameless lamer who thinks we should run away now'.

I don't understand why people accept this. If you're in a battle, and you take losses, and everyone is nervous, and morale hangs by a thread, do you want someone yelling I'M IN CHARGE: RUN AWAY? A *good* commander would have regrouped the fleet, maybe pulled back and counterattacked, but not abandoned the field.

I could make all the same arguments about 'zomg run away' for the rebels. They'd watched their fleet get blown to shit, they'd taken significant losses, were hanging on by their fingernails. They had momentum from their victories, and that's all. It's called *nerve*, something P-pants didn't have.

If you really think commanding officers buckle up, bend over and cry when a battle turns against them, then that's a sad commentary on our time. It's even a common idea that easy victories prove nothing, its the hard ones, full of chaos and difficult decisions, that define a service and it's officers. I have a huge amount of difficulty imagining the Imperial fleet composed of officers any less professional and couragous than our Earthbound forces.

Except P-pants, that is.

I will neither spell his stupid name, or respond to arguments based on game mechanics.

[Chris OFarrell]

Okay. After reading all the arguments I think I'm going to have to jump in here and make my own comments.

Pealleon being called a coward and a traitor is predicated on several assumptions.

Assumption # 1. He was not in charge.
Assumption # 2. The Imperials were still capable of winning.

So lets look at these.

I think is clear, he wasn't in charge as far as lines of authority went. But the fact is that it didn't appear that ANYONE was in charge at this point, no matter what the technical side of it was.

Consider.

The Second Death star has been destroyed, killing Palpitine, Vader and Moff Jerjjrod. Executor was lost as was the fleets nominal commander, who frankly shouldn't have been in command but was. Admiral Harrsk ran for it so did other Star Destroyer captians. I recall one from The Bacta War had been at Endor and ran the second the DSII exploded.

So it does look like ships were ALREADY retreating even before the offical word to do so came down the line. Command and control quite simply was BROKEN at this point. The nominal fleet commanders were all dead, there isn't any indication that there was a set up de-evoloution of command. Afterall, this was supposed to be a quick and easy slaughter. The idea of the rebels taking out the Death Star, Executor and a high Admiral is a little extreme, so you can forgive the Imperials this lapse.

The Chimera at this point is clearly having the crap beaten out of it, if the ships CO has just been killed. Seven other Star Destroyers were killed by the Rebels. Even if we're being generous and assuming the two captured were included in that total, we're still down eight Star Destroyers, one of them an SSD and the fleets flagship, plus a communications ship.

The rebels on the other hand still had most of their fleet. The Truce at Bakura says that they had lost only 20% of their forces, leaving 80%.

http://helios.acomp.usf.edu/~pnguyen7/i ... _boxed.png

The shot of the ships accelerating away from the Death Star show they still had a rather large number of ships at this point. Including a crapload of Mon Cal cruisers, which frankly would be expected to outgun ISD's given how much bigger they are, more a pocket cruiser then a Destroyer.

So can the Imperials win the battle in a straight up slugfest? I would say heck no. The Imperials clearly have no Command and Control if Pealleon can order them all to fall back. The rebels match and probably outgun them at this point and are on a high from the destruction of the 2nd DS and Executor and still have perfectly intact leadership.

Now add to that the fact that the loss of the battle meditation *drasticly* reduced the abilites of the Imperial ships to effectivly fight and you can see this is becoming even more lopsided. Ships had already started to abandon the field even before Pealleon gave the offical order to retreat. And this is ignoring the confusion from the complete breakdown in C3, the normal moral loss of seeing the Emperor die with the Death Star and Executor and even some ISD's start to leave on their own.


In short, there WASN'T a coherent Imperial force that could be rallied to fight back against a probably superior rebel force. Pealleon did the only smart thing, he rallied what he had and retreated to regroup and lick his wounds. The rebel ships could frankly leave now at any point, so there wasn't a hope of a decisive victory ANYWAY, ignoring the fact that it's far more likely that the rebels would have simply wipped the floor with him given the state of his fleet.

So is Pealleon a traitor or a criminal? Hardly. He is an officer who saw a battle was quickly going to turn into a one sided rout if he didn't do anything....so he did something.

[Vympel]

Look, it's a canon fact (RotS novelization) that the death of the Emperor sowed disorder among the Imperial forces. Holding Pelleaon responsible for the Imperial retreat in that regard seems ridiculous, it's a miracle they fought on as long as they did given the circumstances.

Including a crapload of Mon Cal cruisers, which frankly would be expected to outgun ISD's given how much bigger they are, more a pocket cruiser then a Destroyer.

The novelization explicitly has Ackbar's aide stating that the Star Destroyers both outgun them and are more heavily armored. He's probably not talking about the Home One type vessels, but the other Star Cruisers in the fleet.