The battle of the brains!

Anomie · Post by **Anomie** » 2006-01-20 04:28pm

Admiral Daala is chasing the Suncrusher out of the Maw installation, but the information on the routes through the singularities is out of date and she manages to send the three remaining star destroyers of her fleet right into a singularity. But this singularity is actually a shortlived wormhole that sends her star destroyers to the Alpha quadrant via the Bajorn wormhole shortly after the Dominion war. When she relizes she is nolonger in Imperial space, she starts a campaign through the Alpha quadrant. After a few sorities against Federation worlds, the Federation decides to fight back. And they turn to the man who helped them win in the Dominion war, Admiral Jellico.

Now we all know that the Federation could be curbstomped by even a small force of Imperial warmachines. But in this scenario, one of the best tacticians of the Federation is pitted against one of the most inept admiral of the Empire. So with this handicap against the Imperials, can superior tactics and numbers mean a win for the Federation, even if only a pyrric victory.

(I missed a lot DS9 during the Dominion war arc, so Jellico might not be the tactical genius that I think he is, but he's the best that I can think of next to Sisko and since he's not in this scenario, it falls to the Admiral. If you can think of someone else who would be better for the command role, please feel free to mention who and how you think they would fare.)

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2006-01-20 05:07pm

The star destroyers can effortly swat anything the feds send againt them. Even Daala can't fuck up simpy saying "Fire at will"

Besides we know all of Jack Shit about CAPTAIN Jellico. I don;t think he made admiral in the canon, only in the Excellant New Frontier books series.

DaveJB · Post by **DaveJB** » 2006-01-20 05:41pm

To put this into perspective, imagine if you put Patton in charge of the 16th century English army and MacArthur in charge of a small portion (let's say 10%) of the early 1980s Red Army. No matter how well Patton plans things, his army is going to get massacred.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-01-20 07:22pm

Even at her dumbest, Daala's OFFICERS will laugh, and tell their men to open fire.

This is not even a contest. The better way is to pit them in similar vessels and knowledge of such. Then we could see who actually has a brain. This is still giving a 2 year old a red button to launch a thousand nukes that will unerringly kill anyone he doesn't like and Patton stole his candy, against Patton and a bunch of Zulu.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2006-01-21 08:32pm

Daala in charge of 3 starfighters, the UFP has a chance
Daala in charge of 3 Corvettes, the UFP + klingons have a chance
Daala in charge of 3 Light Cruisers, everyone in the Dominion war combined has a chance
Daala in charge of 3 Cruisers or better; You'll need a Borg armada
Daala in charge of 3 Star Destroyers; All Hail Empress Daala, the new ruler of the Milky Way

harbringer · Post by **harbringer** » 2006-01-21 10:31pm

The other thing many people overlook is that darlaa wasn't a dead head admiral she faced a) a threat that her star destroyers were not equiped to face, and b) problems that have nothing to do with being an admiral as such and lastly c) her command was sorely out of shape due to long periods of relative inactivity.

Im not entirely sure she is the most incompetant but if she is then she would still hammer the UFP even with their best admirals, mainly because they don't as a rule display tactical and operational flair. Strategically they arn't too bad but then they couldn't even if they were handed the plans build a death star - let alone secretly out of slush funds.

Sisko's oft quoted replicating minefield was a strategic move not something that will win a battle (it might win a war eventually...). His tactics in general were sub par and involved torpedo and strafing runs (predictable) with little intership co-operation or planning even in the attack on cardassia.

Kirk was inventive but relied on luck to a large degree and didn't command a fleet onscreen. He may well have been the best choice.

Worf like sisko reveled in world war 1 and 2 tactics without using terrain to be a true success (say nebula and asteroid belts). During WW2 it was found that torpedo boats did their best in littorial waters for that reason.

Picard the 'genius' of star fleet again lacked true style, his two successful trade mark tactics (separating the saucer to multiply the threat and the picard maneuver) have limited impact in this case. He also struggled as did janeway with small craft.

I don't think their is a Admiral that could match Darlaa and this is sad becuase there are others better and luckier than her in the star wars universe

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-01-22 10:08am

Solauren wrote:Daala in charge of 3 starfighters, the UFP has a chance
Daala in charge of 3 Corvettes, the UFP + klingons have a chance
Daala in charge of 3 Light Cruisers, everyone in the Dominion war combined has a chance
Daala in charge of 3 Cruisers or better; You'll need a Borg armada
Daala in charge of 3 Star Destroyers; All Hail Empress Daala, the new ruler of the Milky Way

Is that the right way round? Aren't Criusers > Destroyers?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-01-22 10:52am

PayBack wrote:
Solauren wrote:Daala in charge of 3 starfighters, the UFP has a chance
Daala in charge of 3 Corvettes, the UFP + klingons have a chance
Daala in charge of 3 Light Cruisers, everyone in the Dominion war combined has a chance
Daala in charge of 3 Cruisers or better; You'll need a Borg armada
Daala in charge of 3 Star Destroyers; All Hail Empress Daala, the new ruler of the Milky Way
Is that the right way round? Aren't Criusers > Destroyers?

Star Cruiser > Star Destroyer, but Star Destroyers > Cruisers (ISDs are equilevant to heavy cruisers)

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba · Post by **Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba** » 2006-01-22 11:41am

Daala could not take over the Star Trek galaxy, for one simple reason: Force Projection, pacification, and fuel. With only 3 star destroyers, there is no way she could keep order in her new empire, and after a couply of DBZ operations to pacify the populace, I imagine she'd quickly run out of Tibanna gas. If she has only 3, she might be able to destroy every ship in the galaxy, but she could not control anything past her arm's length.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-01-22 01:51pm

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:Daala could not take over the Star Trek galaxy, for one simple reason: Force Projection, pacification, and fuel. With only 3 star destroyers, there is no way she could keep order in her new empire, and after a couply of DBZ operations to pacify the populace, I imagine she'd quickly run out of Tibanna gas. If she has only 3, she might be able to destroy every ship in the galaxy, but she could not control anything past her arm's length.

She still has three ISD garrison complements; I'm not sure of the stats on those, but it seems quite simple to take over -- say -- some Federation shipyards, send scouts out to look for Tibanna to mine, and start upgrading phasers to Imperial firepower levels (if that's possible).

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba · Post by **Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba** » 2006-01-22 03:39pm

How will she mine Tibanna? How will she upgrade the phasers? And since when is 27,000 stormtroopers enough to pacify and galaxy?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-01-22 04:50pm

harbringer wrote:The other thing many people overlook is that darlaa wasn't a dead head admiral

Quite right; she was a dead head corpral - she never graduated fromthe Academy, she was still there when Tarkin took her to be his mistress.

she faced a) a threat that her star destroyers were not equiped to face,

What, chasing down and disabling a single small craft? Attacking a shipyard? Defending a space station from less then a half dozen light pickets and personal transports? Fleet combat agaisnt smaller destroyers? A vastly smaller and inferior force agaisnt her dreadnaught and fleet of destroyers?

and b) problems that have nothing to do with being an admiral as such and

Such as what?

lastly c) her command was sorely out of shape due to long periods of relative inactivity.

In a few cases yes, in others they were experienced, well supplied, and STILL lost horribly.

I don't think their is a Admiral that could match Darlaa and this is sad becuase there are others better and luckier than her in the star wars universe

Show me one example of Dalaa doing anything aside from spreading her legs.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2006-01-22 05:36pm

Well, she killed the warlords.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-01-22 05:44pm

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:How will she mine Tibanna?

This is a good point; I had assumed there would be technicians who had a good idea of how to do so aboard the ISD. Do you know how large an ISD's technical complement is?

How will she upgrade the phasers?

I have no idea; it was conjecture on my part. The idea was it might be possible to hook up phasers to the ISD power trunk; but again, I have no idea how feasible that is.

And since when is 27,000 stormtroopers enough to pacify and galaxy?

Careful; I never claimed 27,000 would be enough for the whole galaxy. If I were Dalaa, and stuck in ST-galaxy with three ISDs, I would conserve fuel and ammunition, and make some surgical strikes on Federation shipyards to cripple some and take over others. She can use the ISDs as last-resort ships, and once they've demonstrated firepower once or twice, I'm pretty sure their mere presence would inspire terror.

AK_Jedi · Post by **AK_Jedi** » 2006-01-22 05:54pm

Surlethe wrote: Careful; I never claimed 27,000 would be enough for the whole galaxy. If I were Dalaa, and stuck in ST-galaxy with three ISDs, I would conserve fuel and ammunition, and make some surgical strikes on Federation shipyards to cripple some and take over others. She can use the ISDs as last-resort ships, and once they've demonstrated firepower once or twice, I'm pretty sure their mere presence would inspire terror.

Therein lies the problem. You are not Dalaa. I agree that even Dalaa's small fleet could wipe the floor with any fleet the ST powers could throw at her.

However, I don't think that Dalaa has the strategic sense to anything that would cement her power. More likely, should would bounce around the quadrant blowing up all sorts of things while gradually taking casualties in her support craft. Eventually she would have 3 star destroyers that are desperately low on ammo, fuel and supplies. At that point, a joint strike from all the alpha quadrant powers might stand a chance at taking out her fleet.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-01-22 06:10pm

AK_Jedi wrote:
Surlethe wrote: Careful; I never claimed 27,000 would be enough for the whole galaxy. If I were Dalaa, and stuck in ST-galaxy with three ISDs, I would conserve fuel and ammunition, and make some surgical strikes on Federation shipyards to cripple some and take over others. She can use the ISDs as last-resort ships, and once they've demonstrated firepower once or twice, I'm pretty sure their mere presence would inspire terror.
Therein lies the problem. You are not Dalaa. I agree that even Dalaa's small fleet could wipe the floor with any fleet the ST powers could throw at her.

However, I don't think that Dalaa has the strategic sense to anything that would cement her power. More likely, should would bounce around the quadrant blowing up all sorts of things while gradually taking casualties in her support craft. Eventually she would have 3 star destroyers that are desperately low on ammo, fuel and supplies. At that point, a joint strike from all the alpha quadrant powers might stand a chance at taking out her fleet.

I understand your point. If you'd understood my post, you'd see I wasn't claiming Daala would do this; I was claiming Daala could do this. Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba claimed Daala could not accomplish the task of taking over the Federation and the ST galaxy, and I'm contesting the negative claim, rather than advancing the claim she actually would take over the galaxy.

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-01-22 08:06pm

Lord Revan wrote:
PayBack wrote:
Solauren wrote:Daala in charge of 3 starfighters, the UFP has a chance
Daala in charge of 3 Corvettes, the UFP + klingons have a chance
Daala in charge of 3 Light Cruisers, everyone in the Dominion war combined has a chance
Daala in charge of 3 Cruisers or better; You'll need a Borg armada
Daala in charge of 3 Star Destroyers; All Hail Empress Daala, the new ruler of the Milky Way
Is that the right way round? Aren't Criusers > Destroyers?
Star Cruiser > Star Destroyer, but Star Destroyers > Cruisers (ISDs are equilevant to heavy cruisers)

Sorry I've never encountered this distinction before... I thought a Star Destroyer was just a space based Destroyer as opposed to a sea based one.. are you saying there's two classes of everything, with having Star in their name to define them as the more powerful version? Sounds redundant to me... why now call a (non Star) Cruiser a destroyer if it's only as powerful as a Star Destroyer?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-01-22 09:29pm

PayBack wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:
PayBack wrote: Is that the right way round? Aren't Criusers > Destroyers?
Star Cruiser > Star Destroyer, but Star Destroyers > Cruisers (ISDs are equilevant to heavy cruisers)
Sorry I've never encountered this distinction before... I thought a Star Destroyer was just a space based Destroyer as opposed to a sea based one.. are you saying there's two classes of everything, with having Star in their name to define them as the more powerful version? Sounds redundant to me... why now call a (non Star) Cruiser a destroyer if it's only as powerful as a Star Destroyer?

The confussion the result of poor communication and a bit of an ad hoc rationalization with some support in the literature.

Basically, there are several different systems for classifying ships and technology levels in SW. Not really a suprise when you think about it, they have hundreds of thousands of differnet species, each with a dozen diferent cultures and things they think are important. But there are two primary systems - the small scale, and the galactic scale. The small scale is the stuff WEG and WotC put out for years. That's the one where star cruisers (and the Imperator, but that's its own special case that warrents a whole different thread) are ranked as Battleships, followed by the cruisrs, rigates, and pickets and the like; and anything larger then the star cruisers is a super ship (super in the sense of the USN's supercarriers; a sland term overly applied). Basically, everything is smaller because smaller groups cannot aford the resources to field larger groups, and don't need them to enforce things on the local scale.

Then you have the galactic scale This is the stuff fielded by superpowers; with millions of systems to draw upon they can field larger ships of greater power with ease, and need them to enforce things. These are the ships fielded by the Republic, Confederacy, Empire, Neew Republic, Vong, and Galactic Alliance. And as a general rule, can be differentiated by the "Star" prefix. They go Star Dreadnaught, Star Battlecruiser, Star Cruisr, Star Destroyer, Star Frigate, and then all your pickets. As a general rule, if someone is talkuing about ships on this board, they are using the galactic classification system.

Now there has been a big ruckus lately amongst the fanboys, angry about a "retcon" by Dr Saxton with the galactic scale replacing everything else. These people are what we politely refer to here as "fucking morons". The fail to grasp the big difference - its not a retcon because it doesn't cahgne things. The small scale was used in the old WEG stuff because WEG was written for the small scale. Your little band of scrappy heros isn't going to do anything to influence a fleet of thousands of ships, or worlds of trillions of beings. They are gonna do wonders in systems that can only muster a few dozen patrol craft with a population of a few hundred thousand though. However, with the release of the prequels, the EU is getting into galaxy (not city) spanning events, and must use a greater scale as a result. Hence the designations ships now use in the literature. A Dreadnaught is a Heavy Cruiser in the Nal Hutta system. However, as soon as the Supreme Chancellor puts it under the jurisdiction of the local Fleet Admiral, it is classified as a star frigate. Not because it is a retcon, but because it is dwarfed by the rest of the fleet.

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-01-22 11:22pm

Thanks for the clarification... hmmm just as I suspected.. things would be better with me as Emperor

Perhaps it's just me, but were I Emperor of the Galaxy, if something were a figate to me, then everyone would damn well call it a frigate, no matter how powerful it was in their little system. Having ship classifications changing depending on where they were assigned would drive me nuts (or more nuts).

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-01-23 04:52am

PayBack wrote:Thanks for the clarification... hmmm just as I suspected.. things would be better with me as Emperor

Perhaps it's just me, but were I Emperor of the Galaxy, if something were a figate to me, then everyone would damn well call it a frigate, no matter how powerful it was in their little system. Having ship classifications changing depending on where they were assigned would drive me nuts (or more nuts).

You'd have thousands of bureaucrats whose entire jobs are based around classifying what a given ship is, where, and translating your orders to the local parlance though. So you wouldn't have to worry about it.

Ender wrote:Show me one example of Dalaa doing anything aside from spreading her legs.

You've got to admit, she's got to be a fantastic, no, an epic lay. She got four Imperators damn it. The galaxy's highest paid working girl!

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2006-01-23 05:03am

On the subject of Daala doing anything besides spreading her legs there was a bit in a book (can't remember title, probably written by Barbara Hambly) where she and a small fleet of fellow retires (on the way to go colonize something IIRC) curb stomp a bunch of renegade Imperials.

Sorry to be so vague, but its been a long time since I read it.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-01-23 05:13am

NecronLord wrote:
Ender wrote:Show me one example of Dalaa doing anything aside from spreading her legs.
You've got to admit, she's got to be a fantastic, no, an epic lay. She got four Imperators damn it. The galaxy's highest paid working girl!

either that or Grand Moff Tarkin hasn't had any in a long time.

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-01-23 05:02pm

NecronLord wrote:
PayBack wrote:Thanks for the clarification... hmmm just as I suspected.. things would be better with me as Emperor

Perhaps it's just me, but were I Emperor of the Galaxy, if something were a figate to me, then everyone would damn well call it a frigate, no matter how powerful it was in their little system. Having ship classifications changing depending on where they were assigned would drive me nuts (or more nuts).
You'd have thousands of bureaucrats whose entire jobs are based around classifying what a given ship is, where, and translating your orders to the local parlance though. So you wouldn't have to worry about it.

It would still bug me knowing in the back of my mind people were calling Frigates Destroyers.. and as I'd have cut back on the number of mass murders, planets blown up and other attrocities, I'd abuse my power other ways by having a single system of classification that everyone must abide by (and thank god they're now calling the Executer a dreadnought).

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba · Post by **Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba** » 2006-01-23 09:06pm

Surlethe wrote:This is a good point; I had assumed there would be technicians who had a good idea of how to do so aboard the ISD. Do you know how large an ISD's technical complement is?

It might be large, it might be small, it doesn't matter. They have absolutely no infrastructure and no support to build it. Besides, I mimagine the tech/engineering complement is quite competent, but I'd doubt that they could build an oil rig, oil refinery, munitions plant, etc. and they have the benefit of having the right infrastructure and materials for it.

I have no idea; it was conjecture on my part. The idea was it might be possible to hook up phasers to the ISD power trunk; but again, I have no idea how feasible that is.

Fair enough. Phasers seem to be able to accept power sources of alien, Federation, or even jury-rigged origin quite easily. Still, it's irrelevent.

Careful; I never claimed 27,000 would be enough for the whole galaxy. If I were Dalaa, and stuck in ST-galaxy with three ISDs, I would conserve fuel and ammunition, and make some surgical strikes on Federation shipyards to cripple some and take over others. She can use the ISDs as last-resort ships, and once they've demonstrated firepower once or twice, I'm pretty sure their mere presence would inspire terror.

Oh, they wouldn't have to make surgical strikes. They could destroy every single ship from flagship to fighter in the entire quadrant. But they could never, never control the quadrant. With only 3 ships, she could never be in enough places at once to pacify any rebellious planets, especially as her supportless ships run quickly out of fuel in a very hypermatter-deficient galaxy as she BDZes dozens of planets out of frustration.

Also, I'd think that, trapped in a galaxy far, far away, without support or any hope of seeing friends or family again, and under a fucking retarded or insane slut-Admiral, many of her people would quickly mutiny against her, and assuming she can put these rebellions down too, who will replace them?

Finally, I sincerely doubt that if faced with Daala's super-ships, the Federation would lay down and die. While they aren't the rabidly brain-washed Orwellian psychos that some people seem to think, the Federation people are clearly indoctrinated to be almost-religious adherents and supporters of their government, call it obstinance, idiocy or courage, they refuse to submit in the face of impossible odds. The Borg incursions, the ludicrously stacked Dominion War, V'Ger, and every single episode wherein their cleverness or humanity defeat seemingly insurmountable odds and they warp away once again in their horrifically dangerous quest to galavant through the galaxy. This mind-set of determination could even be said to have been reinforced by their encounters with the Borg, Dominion and others. These are not people who will go willingly. These people make it so.

ngc7293 · Post by **ngc7293** » 2006-01-23 10:58pm

I have read very few SW books. The impression I get from people here on this character Admiral Dalaa is that she holds power only because friends put her there.

I figure once it was discovered that they were in the ST universe for good and she made a couple of horrible tactical errors (sounds like she does this on a regular basis), she would be removed from 'power' and someone else would be put in charge.

I know the idea is supposed to be SW 'village idiot' vs. ST village idiot but it just doesn't sound like she'd remain in power.