Thrawn or Palleon?

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Thrawn or Palleon?

Thrawn
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53%
Palleon
26
31%
This is a retarded question!
13
16%
 
Total votes: 83

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Chris OFarrell
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

Vympel wrote:Look, it's a canon fact (RotS novelization) that the death of the Emperor sowed disorder among the Imperial forces. Holding Pelleaon responsible for the Imperial retreat in that regard seems ridiculous, it's a miracle they fought on as long as they did given the circumstances.
Including a crapload of Mon Cal cruisers, which frankly would be expected to outgun ISD's given how much bigger they are, more a pocket cruiser then a Destroyer.
The novelization explicitly has Ackbar's aide stating that the Star Destroyers both outgun them and are more heavily armored. He's probably not talking about the Home One type vessels, but the other Star Cruisers in the fleet.
Possibly. OTOH, the Mon Cal's do have much better shielding which at this stage in the game probably means they are less damaged and in a real slugging match against the completly disoreinted Imperial fleet, would come in their favour. Plus of course some of the larger Mon-Cal ships...

And I'm not really that sure about the comments in the book in that section, especialy in light of ROTS. Even so, those Mon Cals were able to deliver a TOT barrage that dropped Executors shields...that ain't no small thing. And if they still have that level of co-ordination with each other while the Imperials are completly disorganised, the battle would be over rather quickly.
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Post by Vympel »

Chris OFarrell wrote: And I'm not really that sure about the comments in the book in that section, especialy in light of ROTS.
Hrm? What's RotS got to do with it? The exchange is moments after the destruction of the Liberty, specifically:
'You won't get a second chance at this, Admiral. Han will have that shield down- we've got to give him more time.
[Film: immediate cut to ground battle]

But the novel continues:
Head for those Star Destroyers.'

Ackbar looked around him. A huge charge of flak rumbled the ship, painting a brief, waxen light over the window. Calrissian was right, there would be no second chance. It was now, or it was the end.

He turned to his First Star captain. 'Move the fleet forward.'

'Yes, sir.' The man paused. 'Sir, we don't stand much of a chance against those Star Destroyers. They out-gun us, and they're more heavily armored.'

'I know,' Ackbar said softly.

The captain left. An aide approached.

'Forward ships have made contact with the Imperial fleet, sir.'
And so on. The "Pearly Wingless" is destroyed later, and that's when the point-blank order is given.
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Post by Lord Revan »

Vympel wrote:
Chris OFarrell wrote: And I'm not really that sure about the comments in the book in that section, especialy in light of ROTS.
Hrm? What's RotS got to do with it? The exchange is moments after the destruction of the Liberty, specifically:
you said ROTS
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Post by Vympel »

Lord Revan wrote:you said ROTS
In terms of a different topic (death of the Emperor), and it was a simple typo. What RotS has to do with it is regarding Star Destroyers versus a Star Cruiser.
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Post by Spetulhu »

Chris OFarrell wrote:So is Pealleon a traitor or a criminal? Hardly. He is an officer who saw a battle was quickly going to turn into a one sided rout if he didn't do anything....so he did something.
Saved the fleet, that's what he did. Getting them to fall back in some semblance of order instead of individual ships breaking off at their own convenience.
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Post by The Original Nex »

with that I agree, but this intresting who was the next in chain of command (we do know it wasn't Palleon though IIRC his CO was dead)?

Is CO on the Chimaera was dead yes, but despite Fleet Admiral Piett's (or was he a High Admiral at this point? There is some conjecture on this) death, Grand Admiral Teshik, who was a guest of the Emperor assumed control of the Eleemosynary before the Death Star's destruction and continued to fight with the Rebels long after Pellaeon's unlawful retreat. Teshik should have had command of the entire Imperial force upon Piett's death. Pellaeon superceded an Imperial Grand Admiral.

There is also mention of an "Admiral Prittick" in Truce at Bakura who assumed command of the Imperial fleet once it regrouped at Annaj. It is unknown what rank of Admiral he was (perhaps merely a Commodore) but he would also have been Pellaeon's superior. The fact that he obeyed Pellaeon's order is odd. Of course it is also possible that Prittick wasn't at Endor at all and was simply the CO of Imperial Navy forces at Annaj. That's more likely IMO.

Whether Prittick was present at Endor or not, Pellaeon clearly defied a Grand Admiral in his retreat, and he and all captains who obeyed him should have been Court Martialed, and likely would had been had Teshik not been captured by the Rebels.
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

Does someone want to tell me where this Grand Admiral came from? Because frankly it sounds like it is from some obsecure source that Zhan almost certianly never heard of (read some comic book), or, it came out after HTTE and the author didn't bother to check.

And frankly I find it absurd that an *Imperial Grand Admiral* was present at Endor and was subservent to Piet, that one of the twelve highest ranking people in the Emperors fleet wouldn't be given command of the battle over a very much junior Admiral like Piet.
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Post by Anguirus »

Why are people saying that Pellaeon ought to be court-martialed? Chain-of-command fuck-ups happen, and in the case of confusion, I don't believe an officer who has reason to believe he's in charge can be punished for giving orders as if he were.

Pellaeon could be in trouble if he gave the retreat order, some Admiral countermanded the order, and Pellaeon said "Fuck you, I'm out of here." But we'll assume that didn't happen, since no evidence suggests that Pellaeon is a traitor and coward. He is the new commander of the vessel that's in charge of the fleet, he gave a legal order, and whether it was right or wrong in retrospect, I can't see why he'd be punished just because officers higher than him were present but did not countermand him.
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Post by The Original Nex »

He is the new commander of the vessel that's in charge of the fleet
Since when is Chimaera in charge of the fleet? GADM Teshik and the Eleemosynary should have had priority even if Chimaera's proper CO was next in line in the COC after Piett, Harssk (who fled) and any other ranking officers who may have been indisposed. Pellaeon certainly didn't have any authority beyond the Chimaera once his CO died. Teshik should have superceded any officer there, he could have bossed Piett around if he was still alive. Pellaeon had the authority to retreat Chimaera only, and that's only if he had no outstanding orders to do otherwise. He had no authority to order any of the other ship commanders to do anything, by the time of his retreat order he was the acting CO of the Chimaera.
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Post by Anguirus »

Since when is Chimaera in charge of the fleet?
That was the impression I'd gotten. Maybe I'm wrong.
GADM Teshik and the Eleemosynary should have had priority even if Chimaera's CO was next in line in the COC after Piett, Harssk (who fled) and any other ranking officers who may have been indisposed. Pellaeon certainly didn't have any authority beyond the Chimaera once his CO died. Teshik should have superceded any officer there, he could have bossed Piett around if he was still alive.
All this is retroactive, right? This was all created after HttE. I think it a bit strange that we're calling Pellaeon a disobedient coward based on the retroactive placing of officers above him at Endor. I doubt that Thrawn would have made Pellaeon his protege if he ignored orders from superior officers in order to retreat.

Anyway, wasn't Teshik already dead at this point? Hadn't Harrsk already fled? If the chain of command's a shambles, what's wrong with ordering a further retreat? Morale's shot, there's no clear command structure, and the Rebels have such overwhelming superiority that they're capturing Star Destroyers intact. Pellaeon assumed that he was the highest-ranking officer present and gave the retreat order, and no one countermanded him.
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This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
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Post by Jason von Evil »

I retract my earlier claim about the Chimaera being next in line after the DSII and Executor. I just checked Wookieepedia and even they're debating it.
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Post by Lazarus »

IIRC, Teshik just appeared in one comic, or a small line of them, and in my experience comics tend to randomly disregard established facts because it 'makes a better story'. Clearly, pellaeon WASN'T court martialed, and neither was he severely disgraced if he came to be the XO of the Supreme Commander, and then eventually the SC himself. Hence, and as Piett is shown to be in command at Endor, and not Teshik, I think we can assume that for whatever reason, the Grand Admiral was not playing the role expected of his rank.
Again, IIRC, Teshik had been previously disgraced by the Emperor for showing mercy to some Rebel prisoners or somesuch, which is ironic as it is them who capture him, give him a 'trial' and then execute him for crimes against humanity or somesuch. This might suggest why he seemed to only have jurisdiction over his own unpronounceable vessel.
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Post by The Original Nex »

Anguirus wrote:That was the impression I'd gotten. Maybe I'm wrong.
AFAIK Chimaera wasn't an important ship. Perhaps Pellaeon's CO was a ranking officer at the battle and command would have fallen to him in light of Piett's death and Harrsk's betrayal, but that doesn't give Pellaeon his ex-CO's authority in the event of his death.
All this is retroactive, right? This was all created after HttE. I think it a bit strange that we're calling Pellaeon a disobedient coward based on the retroactive placing of officers above him at Endor.
Well, talking strictly SoD he did defy a superior officer. Retroactive placement of a superior officer at Endor outside of SoD is irrelevant.
I doubt that Thrawn would have made Pellaeon his protege if he ignored orders from superior officers in order to retreat.
Thrawn "worked in mysterious ways", to quote an annoying fundie saying. We don't know why he selected Pellaeon and the Chimaera.
Anyway, wasn't Teshik already dead at this point?
No. He continued to fight after the Imperial retreat.
Hadn't Harrsk already fled? If the chain of command's a shambles, what's wrong with ordering a further retreat?
Admiral Harrsk fleeing doesn't suddenly loft Pellaeon (was he even a Captian?) into a position of authority. He's fucking XO of a Star Destroyer. Not even a ship commander, he certainly doesn't have the authority to order a full retreat.
Morale's shot, there's no clear command structure, and the Rebels have such overwhelming superiority that they're capturing Star Destroyers intact. Pellaeon assumed that he was the highest-ranking officer present and gave the retreat order, and no one countermanded him.
I don't argue that (except for the idea that he though he was the highest ranking officer, IIRC he was only a senior Commander not even a Captain). The fact that other officers obeyed his call for retreat does not justify the retreat.
Lazarus wrote:IIRC, Teshik just appeared in one comic, or a small line of them, and in my experience comics tend to randomly disregard established facts because it 'makes a better story'.
That doesn't invalidate his character or placement at the battle. He was there poor writing aside. We can't pick and choose.
Clearly, pellaeon WASN'T court martialed, and neither was he severely disgraced if he came to be the XO of the Supreme Commander, and then eventually the SC himself.
Well, the Empire was rather busy trying to stave off collapse. I doubt Pestage or Isard were worrying about reprimanding officers while huge chunks of their fleet desert and swaths of territory are gobbled up by the Alliance of Free Planets and various ex-Imperal warlords. He wasn't involved in any campaigns until Thrawn assumed command of the Chimaera and, for unknown reasons, made Pellaeon his de facto number two. After Thrawn's defeat he made his way to massed fleet at Byss. He lost the Chimaera in battle, and after the Reborn Empire's defeat he abandoned the Imperial State and attached himself to warlords like Teradoc and the fraud Daala. Because Daala consolidated the Imperial forces when she left in disgrace Pellaeon her XO was vaulted into the position of Supreme Commander. There weren't many Imperial officers remaining with Pellaeon's tenure who wanted to challange his position so he remained.

Pellaeon hardly became SC because of his prowess as a commander. He was handed the job after shuttling around to various warlord kingdoms and Imperial remnants, and being a fraudulent Admiral's XO at the time of her disgrace.
Hence, and as Piett is shown to be in command at Endor, and not Teshik, I think we can assume that for whatever reason, the Grand Admiral was not playing the role expected of his rank.
Teshik, and the three other GADMs present on the Death Star were there as guests to the Emperor, not commanders of the fleet. However, when the battle turned sour the GADMs have the authority to pull rank and assume control of the forces.
Again, IIRC, Teshik had been previously disgraced by the Emperor for showing mercy to some Rebel prisoners or somesuch
For failing to rescue an Imperial Privy Councilor from privateers, which he was subsequently punished for by losing the HIMSS Whelm as a flagship and being sent into the Hapes Cluster to fight a battle he could not win. He still had command of Azure Hammer Command and Whelm he just didn't carry his flag on the SSD. 75% of his body was replaced with cybernetics and he was the laughing stock of the Imperial elite.

Perhaps that is why no commander heeded his example by staying and fighting, they held him in distain despite his rank, which is all that legally matters: he's a Grand Admiral. Regardless of his image all officers were obligated to follow his command once he entered battle.
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Post by Publius »

Fleet Admiral Firmus Piett was in command of the battle fleet assembled at Endor, and flew his flag aboard HIMS Executor (ref. Return of the Jedi[); it is known that there was at least one other flag officer aboard the Executor, that being Piett's chief of staff, Admiral Chiraneau (ref. Death Star II Expansion Set), and one other flag officer present in the fleet as one of Piett's subordinate task force commanders, Admiral Harrsk (ref. The Essential Chronology). Based on the fact that, despite being a post captain, Captain Gilad Pellaeon was only Executive Officer, HIMS Chimaera (ref. Star Wars Encyclopedia), it is very probable that the CO was either a line captain or a commodore (at the very least) and another one of Piett's task force commanders. Additionally, there were two 'fleet captains' present with Piett on the Executor's bridge (ref. Return of the Jedi novelization).

There were at least four grand admirals present – Grand Admirals Osvald Teshik, Nial Declann, Miltin Takel, and Afsheen Makati (ref. "Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals") – as well as a potential fifth grand admiral, possibly Rufaan Tigellinus's successor (ref. The Essential Chronology), but – this is an important distinction – they were not present and afloat (as it were); the grand admirals had arrived with the Galactic Emperor and were aboard the Death Star as observers, not in the battle fleet.

It is pretty safe to assume that Chiraneau died at either the same time or shortly after Piett was killed and the Executor was destroyed. At that point, command of the battle fleet should have devolved upon the next senior officer present and afloat, which was probably Pellaeon's unnamed CO, as the Death Star II Expansion Set established that Chimaera was the auxiliary communications ship (not the same as the main communications ship in the novelization, which was destroyed before the Executor was), and The Essential Chronology states that it was only after regrouping at Annaj that Harrsk was "unwilling to take orders from Pellaeon, a mere captain," which probably indicates that he did not realize it was Pellaeon and not his CO who had issued the order to retreat.

At least three Star Destroyers were destroyed prior to the destruction of the Executor herself – (1.) a Star Destroyer destroyed by collision with a rebel cruiser (ref. Return of the Jedi novelization), (2.) the main communications ship (op. cit.), and (3.) the Star Destroyer seen destroyed by turbolaserfire to the Executor's starboard, possibly HIMS Devastator (ref. Return of the Jedi). Although the loss of the main communications ship very likely contributed to a degradation of Imperial coordination, the fact is that it could not have been excessively deleterious; both the Executor and the Chimaera remained intact. Even if one of Piett's task force commanders had been aboard, there remained Piett himself, Pellaeon's unnamed CO, and Harrsk (although his flagship did sustain damage, it was not destroyed, and the damage to his face was apparently superficial, despite the loss of an eye).

Lieut. Voren Na'al's Report to the Provisional Council of the Alliance of Free Planets on the Aftermath of the Battle of Endor – which is the notional document corresponding to most of chapter 2 of The Truce at Bakura Sourcebook – notes that the destruction of the Executor, which Na'al incorrectly attributes to "the Death Star's gravitational field" (seemingly unaware that she had been "having difficulties with its guidance system" even before Admiral Ackbar ordered the fleet to concentrate its fire on her, and had been "listing badly to starboard" when her bridge was hit, according to the novelization), "seemed to trigger a significant demoralization throughout the Imperial fleet – the accuracy of Imperial fire dropped off, and while the decrease was not substantial, it was at least noticeable," and that "several TIEs from the Executor – on station with orders to protect the exposed sections of the Death Star – began to make crucial errors once their command ship (and source of coordination) had been destroyed," indicating that the Executor herself had probably assumed much of the main communications ship's functions after she had been destroyed.

Although Grand Admiral Thrawn's 'borg-implant' theory (quoted in Heir to the Empire) proved to be wrong in the details, it was essentially correct; Grand Admiral Nial Declann had been applying his dark side mentalic influence to enhance the Imperial fleet via battle meditation (ref. "Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals"). The immediate result of the Galactic Emperor's death, therefore, was in fact magnified. As the novelization points out, the Galactic Emperor's death removed the "central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire" and left the dark side diffused and 'nondirected,' leading to confusion, desperation, and damp fear, and to this must be added the negative side effects of the abrupt termination of Declann's battle meditation (he stopped immediately when he felt the Galactic Emperor's death through the Force).

It is pretty safe to assume that Chiraneau was also killed when Piett and his two 'fleet captains' died aboard the Executor, which would have sent command to the next senior officer, one of Piett's task force commanders, probably the unknown CO of the Chimaera, which was the auxiliary communications ship. In any case, Na'al's report contains the following information:
The immediate effect of Death Star II's explosion was severe: ship-to-ship communications were almost completely disrupted. The Death Star possessed the main communications node for Imperial ships stationed in the Endor system. After the explosion, contact with the outside was lost along with the in-system HoloNet. In addition, the explosion itself caused considerable interference with both scanner systems and communications equipment. Imperial ships, accustomed to superior communications, were caught unprepared for the sudden reduction in communications range. Alliance troops, trained to operate under less than ideal conditions, pressed their assualts on various ships and the Imperials' unified blockade action degenerated into a series of fierce single engagements.

After hours of fighting, Imperial morale was extremely low, and it is this loss of (for lack of a better term) fighting spirit that led to the Imperial retreat. The Rebel Alliance, after years of fighting a defensive campaign, had defeated a numerically superior force and landed a decisive blow against the New Order.
Na'al's report is also quite explicit that "contrary to popular opinion, the Imperial fleet did not surrender after the Death Star exploded," and "in fact, the Alliance accepted no Imperial surrender at Endor," because "despite the battle's sudden reversal in momentum, the fighting raged on for nearly four hours." Nor was the battle a bloodless victory; Na'al quotes "casualty estimates for Alliance starfighter pilots" that "exceeded 20 percent," noting that "shipboard casualties nearly matched that total," and that "of the surviving Alliance vessels, nearly 75 percent of them needed extensive repairs before returning to duty" (unlike most sourcebooks, The Truce at Bakura Sourcebook actually cites its sources; the 20% figure is drawn from The Truce at Bakura, in which Ackbar states that the Alliance "lost twenty percent of our forces, battling only part of the Emperor's fleet").

Na'al writes in his report that the battle continued for "nearly four hours" after the destruction of the Death Star, and the Historical Council of the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances – of which Na'al was Archivist Emeritus – subsequently writes in The New Essential Chronology that "after the destruction of the second Death Star, the Imperial fleet had continued to fight for four hours under the command of Grand Admiral Teshik – but were systematically beaten back by their numerically inferior foe," and that "when Rebel forces disabled Teshik's ship, Captain Gilad Pellaeon of the Star Destroyer Chimaera ordered the fleet to retreat and regroup at Annaj, where the first signs of stress began to show" (note that the scribe writes in The New Essential Guide to Characters that "with the death of Admiral Piett and the absence of any Grand Admirals, Pellaeon's order made him the de facto fleet leader at Annaj"). However, here one discovers a discontinuity, as "Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals" – the only one of these sources that is not notionally written from an 'in-universe' perspective, and thus not overtly known to be written by partisan historians – states quite plainly that "when the Imperial retreat was called, Teshik stayed behind," and "as a testament to Teshik's brilliance, the battle raged for another three hours before his Star Destroyer Eleemosynary succumbed to overwhelming ion cannon fire."

Note here that the only source not written from an 'in-universe' perspective – "Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals" – states that Teshik fought for three hours after the retreat was called, whereas the Historical Council's version – written at a time when Pellaeon had become not only "the dictator we can do business with" (it being in the New Republic's best interests that the legitimacy of his regime in the Outer Rim be upheld and that all other Imperialist states and neo-Imperialist movements be deprecated as 'non-mainstream,' leaving Pellaeon and his pro-New Republic regime as the 'legitimate' heirs to the Palpatinist tradition), but indeed a wartime ally of the New Republic during the Vong War and a leader of the Galactic Alliance's war effort in the Swarm War – claims that Pellaeon called the retreat four hours after the destruction of the Death Star, after Teshik's Eleemosynary was disabled. The scribe even goes so far as to claim that since there were no grand admirals at Annaj, Pellaeon was de facto in charge, ignoring several important facts: (1.) Grand Admiral Teshik was not present because he had been abandoned at Endor; (2.) Admiral Harrsk was present at Annaj and would have automatically taken precedence before any ship's Commanding Officer, let alone an Executive Officer acting as captain after the death of his CO, who would take command only if every single other CO had been killed and he were the senior XO present; and (3.) not even Harrsk should have taken command, because Annaj was in fact an Imperial Sector capital (a deposition given by Alliance Intelligence's Maj. Breslin Drake is quoted in The Truce at Bakura Sourcebook as saying that "the nearest Imperial sector capital (and the next logical link in the chain of command) was Cannij Barr, Annaj system – a system nearly two days' Class One hyperdrive travel distant").

Immediately after the battle itself, Na'al did write that the space battle lasted nearly four hours after the destruction of the Death Star, and there is no reason to suspect his honesty. Combined with the knowledge that Teshik fought for three hours after the retreat, and the Historical Council's claim that his ship was captured toward the end of the fourth hour, it seems likely that the breakdown in communications had meant that most of the ships in the fleet were unaware that Teshik had made his way to the Eleemosynary, and were looking to the Chimaera's CO as the SOPA for orders. When the unknown CO was killed, Pellaeon assumed command and issued the order to retreat, possibly without announcing the CO's death (thus explaining Harrsk's subsequent outrage at Annaj, two days later), leaving Teshik behind to fight for another three hours before being captured.

As to why Pellaeon was not tried by court-martial, it is quite possible that he was spared by political expediency; there were, after all, two much more important figures among the Loyalists that had displayed outright cowardice at Endor – Grand Admirals Miltin Takel and Afsheen Makati, who had been aboard the Death Star and simply fled the battle altogether, not taking command as Teshik had tried to do, nor even regrouping with the fleet at the nearest Sector capital at Annaj. The fact that both Takel and Makati went unpunished and remained Loyalists as late as the start of the Trioculus Affair probably means that the decision was made to overlook any and all indiscretions by senior officers at Endor and in its immediate aftermath, so long as the officer in question had had the good taste not to defect altogether (as Harrsk and others had done).

As it happens, it is no great argument in Pellaeon's favor to claim that he was Thrawn's protégé; it need hardly be said that a man with over 50 years of naval experience shouldn't be learning much of anything about space warfare from anyone. Very likely he was chosen as Thrawn's flag captain – which is not the same thing as a second in command or a deputy supreme commander – because, while suffering from excessive conservatism, unaggressiveness, and lack of nerve, he is a competent and reliable administrator who was more than able to make his ship run like clockwork (which is, incidentally, precisely what an XO is expected to do); in Tatooine Ghost it was mentioned that the Chimaera was reputed as one of the best-run Star Destroyers in the Imperial fleet. Nevertheless, skill in organization does not imply skill on the battlefield (see, for example, Maj. Gen. George B. McClellan).
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Post by The Original Nex »

Thank you Publius. I'm happy to say I am always further educated after reading one of your essays or posts.
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Post by Anguirus »

Agreed. Good job pulling all those different sources together.
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This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
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Post by Jason von Evil »

Stupid question: But what is SoD? I saw it being used in another SW thread aswell, and I feel I should know it.
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Post by NeoGoomba »

So would it be a safe comparason then to say that a real life equivalent to Pellaeon could be Gen. Omar Bradley? He too was a conservative, by-the-book commander who while a good CO was by no means brilliant?
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Vaporous
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Post by Vaporous »

First off, there is no reason for anyone in the Imperial Fleet to think of bombarding Endor, especially not when everything is going to hell. Pietts conversation with the officer on the Executor earlier in the battle, as well as Palpys normal megalomaniacal theatrics, show that exactly what was going on was not general knowledge. It was likely assumed that a random group of rebels had assaulted the shield: bombarding the area and slaughtering "and entire Legion of [The Emperors] best troops" to kill a handful of enemy agents in the middle of a fight would be pointless.

The Fleet ceased to be a cohesive unit due to circumstances that have been explained enough. (Palpys death, communication loss without the DS or the Executor). He gave the order because nothing else could have been done. There were, according to "Heir to the Empire", individual commanders ordering suicde runs. There was no command anymore. The fleet had already come apart at the seams, and so Pelleaon did the only logical thing. He ordered them to withdraw to fight on later, not knowing how deep the wound went. Under the circumstances, it is entirely understandable.


I do not recall Thrawn ever faulting him for his action.

As for his "50 years of fleet experience", it must be considered he had to lie about his age to fight the clone wars, being about 15-17 years old. Tack on two decades or so, and you have a 40 year old Pelleaon at Endor, if not younger..

Keep in mind, we are discussing the Imperial Officer Core we love so dearly. The one bloated with rampant nepotism, cronyism and favortism. Enough inbred twitts at the top for Pelleaon to serve in the background.

That said, Thrawn is still the best choice. Pelleaon is a competant enough officer, but as he himself thought at Bibringi, "Thrawn could make it a victory. But he [Pelleaon] was not Thrawn." But lets not have any nonsense about Pelleaon being a coward or a fool.
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Post by The Original Nex »

lets not have any nonsense about Pelleaon being a coward or a fool.
And let's not absolve Pellaeon of his terrible mistake at Endor. You say it was "entirely Understandable given the circumstances". But you neglect to mention that he had no authority to command the fleet at all. His retreat was illegal as he most likely lied to all other commanders by letting them beleive his CO (who did have authority) had survived and was in fact issuing the order himself. In the process they abandoned Grand Admiral Teshik leading to his capture and eventual execution.

I'm not calling a coward or a fool, but I'm not going to bend over backwards to justify his illegal retreat either.
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Post by Spetulhu »

The Original Nex wrote:
lets not have any nonsense about Pelleaon being a coward or a fool.
But you neglect to mention that he had no authority to command the fleet at all. His retreat was illegal as he most likely lied to all other commanders by letting them beleive his CO (who did have authority) had survived and was in fact issuing the order himself. In the process they abandoned Grand Admiral Teshik leading to his capture and eventual execution.
It would seem the Grand Admiral failed to take command, or even make himself known. Sucks to be him, but he wasn't doing anything useful. Goodbye and good riddance.
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Post by Publius »

The fleet had already come apart at the seams, and so Pelleaon did the only logical thing. He ordered them to withdraw to fight on later, not knowing how deep the wound went. Under the circumstances, it is entirely understandable.
Captain Pellaeon disrupted the chain of command and illegally assumed authority that did not belong to him, ordering a retreat to a location two days away from the battle site. In the process he effectively eliminated any chance at a timely counterattack, and abandoned one of the Empire's finest fleet commanders to capture and eventual execution as a war criminal by the enemy. It is 'entirely understandable' in the sense that his action was clearly the result of mindless panic.

Furthermore, the fact that Grand Admiral Teshik managed to continue to fight for some three hours after Pellaeon's craven abandonment demonstrates quite handily that the situation was not as desperate as Pellaeon thought it was. In fact, according to Na'al's analysis of the situation after the battle, the rebel fleet had suffered considerable casualties, and there were concerns that even one or two Star Destroyers in a counterattack could cause serious harm to the fleet.

Recall that this is the same man who has a consistent record of fleeing. In "Bloodlines" he unilaterally declared his position untenable and retreated, abandoning an entire army on the surface of Merson and getting their commanding general, Master Jedi Ronhar Kim, killed. In The Last Command he spontaneously concluded that the situation at Bilbringi was also untenable, and ordered an immediate withdrawal after Thrawn's death, making not even the slightest chance to salvage the situation and simply abandoning one of the Empire's shipyards to the New Republic.
I do not recall Thrawn ever faulting him for his action.
Grand Admiral Thrawn also never entrusted Pellaeon with any significant, independent responsibility, and in fact kept him close at hand where he could always keep a glowing red eye on him. Notably, Pellaeon was not advanced to flag rank and was not made a task force commander, but was rather kept on a tight leash as flag captain and captain of the fleet, where he was never fully in charge of anything.
As for his "50 years of fleet experience", it must be considered he had to lie about his age to fight the clone wars, being about 15-17 years old. Tack on two decades or so, and you have a 40 year old Pelleaon at Endor, if not younger..
Considering that Thrawn's War took place in 44 GR, an officer with Pellaeon's experience must have entered Naval service some time around 6 BrS, several years before the Naboo Crisis that precipitated Supreme Chancellor Palpatine's election in The Phantom Menace. Given that he lied about his age to enter the Academy, he must have been in his mid-to-late sixties during Thrawn's War, which would have made him in his late fifties or early sixties at the Battle of Endor in 39 GR.
Keep in mind, we are discussing the Imperial Officer Core we love so dearly. The one bloated with rampant nepotism, cronyism and favortism. Enough inbred twitts at the top for Pelleaon to serve in the background.
Would this be the same Imperial officer corps that advanced Soontir Fel to post captaincy and command of a heavy cruiser a bare handful of years after graduation from the Military Academy at Carida? Or perhaps the same officer corps that found Maarek Stele a post captain after less than a year in service? The same officer corps that did not so much as bat an eye at the summary execution of Kendal Ozzel for incompetence? Perhaps even the same officer corps that saw Thrawn rise from the rank of post captain to the rank of grand admiral in less than four years?
It would seem the Grand Admiral failed to take command, or even make himself known. Sucks to be him, but he wasn't doing anything useful. Goodbye and good riddance.
If you do not consider fighting for three hours against the massed fleet of the entire rebel Alliance to be useful, then perhaps you would be so kind as to explain what would have been useful? Perhaps headlong flight to a regrouping point two days away, there to dither about uselessly instead of planning a counterattack?

If Teshik did not take command, then perhaps you would be so kind as to explain how he ended up in command of Eleemosynary? What makes you think that the capture and execution of one of the Empire's best and greatest fleet commanders is 'good riddance'?
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Post by Anguirus »

Could the seemingly contradictory premises of "Pellaeon is not a criminal" and "Pellaeon abandoned Teshik" be explained by Teshik's Destroyer simply losing communications? The Pellaeon from HttE would certainly have broadcast some sort of inquiry before assuming he had command (remember, the one thing everyone agrees upon is that he's conservative). If Teshik couldn't respond, Pellaeon might have assumed him killed.
In fact, according to Na'al's analysis of the situation after the battle, the rebel fleet had suffered considerable casualties, and there were concerns that even one or two Star Destroyers in a counterattack could cause serious harm to the fleet.
I don't know who Na'al is, but we have to reconcile this with RotJ, which shows that the vast majority of the Rebel fleet survived intact. Unless most of them took massive casualties or internal damage (which seems contradictory with their rapid acceleration towards the moon of Endor) a few Star Destroyers couldn't hope to make a dent in them.

The Home One took no visible internal damage or casualties, probably thanks to its shields. At least two ships of this type survived the battle, and the last shot of the fleet is thought to show one or two more. It would take a number of Destroyers to stop them, and all the nearest ones are themselves battle-damaged.

Also, let's keep in mind that all Pellaeon knows is that most of the fleet's intact. He knows little or nothing of internal damage or casualties. Even if a sudden counterattack would do him some good, he has no way of knowing it. It's a bit like the situation in North Carolina in 1862...a large Confederate force was driven into retreat by a larger Union force, when the Union suddenly retreated. The Confederate commander, perhaps sensibly, stablized his position. But years later, it was revealed that if he had attacked, he would have driven the Union from the state. They were totally out of ammunition.

Hindsight's 20-20, especially in military matters.
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Post by Noble Ire »

Recall that this is the same man who has a consistent record of fleeing. In "Bloodlines" he unilaterally declared his position untenable and retreated, abandoning an entire army on the surface of Merson and getting their commanding general, Master Jedi Ronhar Kim, killed.
This is the Clone Wars comic, correct? I would still maintain that that was one of Pellaeon's relatives, perhaps his father, rather than Pellaeon himself. If it was him, then he would not only had to have been demoted in the interim period (which, admittedly, is a possibility), been about thirty or so at the time, which he does not look, and not have aged physically at all in three decades. I'm not seeing it.
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