Doomsday Machine from TOS VS. ISD

[T-1000]

Yes, well since we are assuming tacticle intelligence for the Planet Killer, we can assume that it will fire it's most powerful blast, and take out the SD in one shot.

Its most powerful blast is obviously nowhere near the teraton range; need I remind you that Decker sat on his ship and listened to his crew calling for help while it attacked the planet they were on? If its beam were that powerful, it would have been a very short cry for help.

It may well have been a very short cry for help. Either way, I still think the Planet Killer at full power can hit a standard Star Destroyer with more force than it can take.

[Vympel]

Unlikely. Since the Enterprise found rubble still left from it's first system it attacked, its more likely that it blows it up in one shot, and then does its best to tractor or collect all the flying and scattered debris as it goes. If it attempted the more gradual method you are suggesting, it would seem that it would be more than able to consume the whole of a planet without any waist. However, there is clearly waist, as seen in the begining of the episode. Assuming that all elements within a planet can be succesifully processed by the Doomsday Machine, this would fit the theory that there are just certain elements missed by the Planet Killer.

That reasoning does not follow. Purely because it goes by a gradual method does not preclude the existence of waste.

[Darth Servo]

Unlikely. Since the Enterprise found rubble still left from it's first system it attacked, its more likely that it blows it up in one shot, and then does its best to tractor or collect all the flying and scattered debris as it goes. If it attempted the more gradual method you are suggesting, it would seem that it would be more than able to consume the whole of a planet without any waist. However, there is clearly waist, as seen in the begining of the episode. Assuming that all elements within a planet can be succesifully processed by the Doomsday Machine, this would fit the theory that there are just certain elements missed by the Planet Killer.

See Mike's last post.

Does the Doomsday machine have a waist? Hips and thighs too?

[paladin]

Because we don't know over how long a period it does this work, we cannot calculate whether one 'shot' would overcome the shields of a Star Destroyer. It could take minutes, hours, or days even.

Yes, well since we are assuming tacticle intelligence for the Planet Killer, we can assume that it will fire it's most powerful blast, and take out the SD in one shot.

The Doomsday Machine has the capabilities it had in the episode. It does not have any advanced tactical knowledge of the ISD. It just destroys a planet for fuel, moves onto the next planet, or attacks when a vessel enters into its "attack zone."

I don't remember any specific range where it would attack but I remember it went after "power sources" like starships or shuttles.

[Darth Wong]

Unlikely. Since the Enterprise found rubble still left from it's first system it attacked, its more likely that it blows it up in one shot, and then does its best to tractor or collect all the flying and scattered debris as it goes.

Leap in logic. Why should the lingering presence of planetary rubble mean that the planet must have been violently blown up in a single shot?

PS. And how could Decker be sitting there listening to his crew cry for help during this attack?

If it attempted the more gradual method you are suggesting, it would seem that it would be more than able to consume the whole of a planet without any waist.

You are assuming that 100% of the planetary material is useful to it. Justify this assumption.

However, there is clearly waist, as seen in the begining of the episode. Assuming that all elements within a planet can be succesifully processed by the Doomsday Machine, this would fit the theory that there are just certain elements missed by the Planet Killer.

What makes you think the planet-killer processes all of the elements with no waste byproducts whatsoever? Are you suggesting total annihilation of any matter whatsoever? Where does it store all of this mass/energy, pray tell? And how can it have such tremendous energy storage capabilities when a 100 megaton blast was enough to kill it?

[T-1000]

That reasoning does not follow. Purely because it goes by a gradual method does not preclude the existence of waste.

Yes, but the gradual method is less likely to result in waist. Since the machine obviously is on a preset series of instructions and process, blowing up chunks of the planet and then consuming them one at a time would be less likely to leave waist then the method I described, in which it promply blows up the planet and attempts to gather the scattered debries for fuel.

[Darth Servo]

Yes, but the gradual method is less likely to result in waist. Since the machine obviously is on a preset series of instructions and process, blowing up chunks of the planet and then consuming them one at a time would be less likely to leave waist then the method I described, in which it promply blows up the planet and attempts to gather the scattered debries for fuel.

Less likely does not mean zero.

[Vympel]

Bugger Mike beat me to it *points to last post on page 2*

[Darth Wong]

Yes, but the gradual method is less likely to result in waist. Since the machine obviously is on a preset series of instructions and process, blowing up chunks of the planet and then consuming them one at a time would be less likely to leave waist then the method I described, in which it promply blows up the planet and attempts to gather the scattered debries for fuel.

What the fuck is your problem? How many times do I have to point out that you are assuming zero waste byproducts in its processing scheme without a shred of evidence, and without explaining how it can possibly store such a vast amount of mass-energy?

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Yes, but the gradual method is less likely to result in waist. Since the machine obviously is on a preset series of instructions and process, blowing up chunks of the planet and then consuming them one at a time would be less likely to leave waist then the method I described, in which it promply blows up the planet and attempts to gather the scattered debries for fuel.

What the fuck is your problem? How many times do I have to point out that you are assuming zero waste byproducts in its processing scheme without a shred of evidence, and without explaining how it can possibly store such a vast amount of mass-energy?

I bet he's high.

[Darth Servo]

What the fuck is your problem? How many times do I have to point out that you are assuming zero waste byproducts in its processing scheme without a shred of evidence, and without explaining how it can possibly store such a vast amount of mass-energy?

Somebody want to remind him about the second law of thermal dynamics?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I bet he's high.

Either that or really dense.

[T-1000]

Leap in logic. Why should the lingering presence of planetary rubble mean that the planet must have been violently blown up in a single shot?

It doesn't, but it does fit the theory that the planet killer did blow up the planet in such a fashion, and then tried to collect as much of the rubble and debries as possible, but missed some. It fits the data a bit more easily than the model that the process was much more gradual, and the Doomsday machine had ample time to chew up the chunks as it went along. Neither theories can be conclusivly proven, but I think this one fits the facts a little bit better.

PS. And how could Decker be sitting there listening to his crew cry for help during this attack?

For all we know, Decker's crew had enough time to call for help just before the giant beam came crashing down on them. Decker was found in a state of shock when he gave this testimony, so obviously every word of it can't be taken in concret evidence, but assuming that that is precisely how it happened, then they may have had enough time to let out a scream over the communicators before the Planet Killer fired, who knows? I'm only offering a theory.

You are assuming that 100% of the planetary material is useful to it. Justify this assumption.

I can't anymore than you can justify that it isn't. However, the functions of the Planet Killer seem to preclude the possiblity of shifting out any unnecessary materials. Assuming that there are certain elements within a planet that it can't consume, and others that it can, it seems highly unlikely that it could so easily sift out certain elements from others.

Besides, since it was assumed that the Planet Killer originated from a galaxy outside our own, who knows what kind of elements are or aren't acceptable to it.

What makes you think the planet-killer processes all of the elements with no waste byproducts whatsoever? Are you suggesting total annihilation of any matter whatsoever? Where does it store all of this mass/energy, pray tell? And how can it have such tremendous energy storage capabilities when a 100 megaton blast was enough to kill it?

Well gee, since it's science fiction, obviously I can't explain the total processes of the Planet Killer. However, I never stated that the Planet Killer needs to process 100% of the planet's mass. It is possible that it only needs to absorb a certain amount, and that the debris the Enterprise found at the begining of the episode was merely leftovers. However, since no planetary bodies were found intact, assuming that the PK does not need to consume the total mass of a planet to fuel itself, this would still fit the assumption that the PK violently blew up the planet, and then consumed the necessary elements/mass for fuel.

[T-1000]

What the fuck is your problem? How many times do I have to point out that you are assuming zero waste byproducts in its processing scheme without a shred of evidence, and without explaining how it can possibly store such a vast amount of mass-energy?

Well gee, since it was written in a show that is notorious for slaughtering physics, I suppose it is just possible that the Planet Killer might not make sense to normal science. What else do you want me to say?

However, whatever waste byproducts may be produced by the planet killer, I have no idea about. I am refering to the rubble and debris found at the begining of the episode. This would suggest that certain parts of the planet surface are just left behind, wasted, because the planet killer consumed its necessary requirements for fuel and then moved on.

[Darth Servo]

[quote="T-1000"]Besides, since it was assumed that the Planet Killer originated from a galaxy outside our own, who knows what kind of elements are or aren't acceptable to it.
ROTFLMAO. Elements are the same no matter which galaxy your in. Hydrogen is still hydrogen in the Andromeda galaxy.

[Darth Wong]

OK T-1000, you're trying to pretend that your theory fits the facts better. Let's check that assumption, shall we?

Known data:

1) planets are reduced to rubble
2) planet-killer cannot withstand a 100 megaton explosion

Theory 1: planet-killer violently shatters planet with an energy beam vastly more intense than a 100 megaton explosion, and then achieves complete matter/energy conversion of most of the planet's mass before it hurls away, absorbing energy (again) at vastly greater rates than it would absorb during a 100 megaton blast. Predicts a rapidly expanding debris field and near-instantaneous death for all occupants of a destroyed planet.

Theory 2: planet-killer slowly tears planet to pieces bit by bit, leaving a large debris field consisting of much of the planet's mass and extracting as many useful materials from it as possible. Predicts a slow-moving debris field and significant survival time for occupants of a destroyed planet. Also fits laws of physics more easily than theory 1.

Sorry, but while you may say that your theory fits the facts better, it does not.

Well gee, since it's science fiction, obviously I can't explain the total processes of the Planet Killer.

Feeble cop-out alert. When faced with the fact that his theory is scientifically far less feasible, he simply resorts to the "it's sci-fi so it doesn't have to make sense" excuse. Bzzzttt! You lose.

However, since no planetary bodies were found intact, assuming that the PK does not need to consume the total mass of a planet to fuel itself, this would still fit the assumption that the PK violently blew up the planet, and then consumed the necessary elements/mass for fuel.

You just love to make leaps in logic, don't you? Why must the PK leave planets intact in order to not be violently blowing them up? You see no middle ground between intact planets and violent explosion?

[LordShaithis]

Furthermore, why should blowing the planet up result in LESS waste? If you blew it up, there'd be so many fucking chunks flying around that it would take years to collect them all.

[LordShaithis]

I mean, think about it. I cut my steak up carefully with a knife and then eat it piece by piece. I don't blow it up and lick the chunks off the ceiling. Why would the planet-killer WANT to detonate the whole planet???

[Col. Crackpot]

If I remember correctly, it has been stated that the DM fired a beam of pure anti-protons or something to that effect? That would mean that as long as the ISD keeps its shields up then there will be no reaction.

are you on drugs? or ar you just the warsie version of grahme kennedy?That thing smashes planets to pieces! if it were to get a shot off, the ISD is toast. More than one ISD and i think it would be in trouble.

[nightmare]

are you on drugs? or ar you just the warsie version of grahme kennedy?That thing smashes planets to pieces! if it were to get a shot off, the ISD is toast. More than one ISD and i think it would be in trouble.

Just like the E-nil blew up, eh?

Oh wait.. it didn't.

[SpyderGS]

Consider that at least one of the purposes the PK was built for is destroying planets. Consider that this is it's means to aqcuiring fuel.

It does not make any sense to violently destroy a planet and then chase down all the rubble it needs to continue operations. It would, in fact, be a waste of fuel.

Most likely, it slowly rips up chunks of a planet and consumes them while remaining relatively motionless (stationkeeping being less fuel consumptive than tearing around a star system trying to gather up planetary debris).

On the other hand, how fast can it actually move? The Connies fighting it had no trouble manuevering around it. It's beam had a bit of a reach, but even the crippled Connie was able to maneuver into position without coming under fire. Of course this may only mean that the PK no longer considered it a threat.

[SPOOFE]

Do you people even know what an "anti-proton" is?

Here's a tip: anti-proton requires the presence of a proton in order to annihilate. Shields are not composed of protons. Ergo, the only energy impacting against the shield of an ISD will be the anti-proton beam's kinetic energy... which is to say, not a whole helluva lot (relatively).

[Darth Yoshi]

It blows up planets. That means more power than a Star Destroyer can take. Sheesh, I don't really think we need heavy mathmatics to figure that out.

No, it doesn't blow up planets. That's my point.

He's right. Watch the episode again. The DM cuts up a planet and consumes the rubble, but it doesn't blast it into kingdom come.

[Jim Raynor]

So does this mean the ISD has nothing to fear from the Planet Killer? Cool.

[Col. Crackpot]

So does this mean the ISD has nothing to fear from the Planet Killer? Cool.

i think that it means whichever ship gains inititive in battle and gains the first shot will destroy the other. However i think Stravo has a much more action packed scenerio based example of what would happen coming soon in starcrossed. might i add i am hooked on that story like friggin crack and i need a fix! comeon stravo! i'm going through fucking withdrawal here!