Dissilusioned with the ICS (Or: The good old days)

[Lord Poe]

No, but he will slander Curtis Saxton as a dishonest Warsie spouting bullshit and pulling numbers out of his ass with impunity, and them innocently say "who, me?" if someone tries to call him on it. I hold Mr. Saxton in high regard and I'm sick of seeing people blast his work as "bullshit", even if they grudgingly accept that it's "official bullshit", to use Alyeska's term.

This is what the Alyeskas of the world have been doing even before the ICS came out.

Curtis has shown, time and again, more than enough proof that his numbers are derived from legitimate calcs and sources. Those that can't accept this...piss and moan.

[Alyeska]

Just as a voice of reason here, let me add that Aleyeska is right in the sense that he's stating his opinion about Saxton and the ICS. He doesn't agree with the numbers and he thinks their bullshit, BUT he won't pull a Darkstar and say that the ICS does not exist or that its not canon.

No, but he will slander Curtis Saxton as a dishonest Warsie spouting bullshit and pulling numbers out of his ass with impunity, and them innocently say "who, me?" if someone tries to call him on it. I hold Mr. Saxton in high regard and I'm sick of seeing people blast his work as "bullshit", even if they grudgingly accept that it's "official bullshit", to use Alyeska's term.

Actually my only gripe is some of his firepower figures.

All I have said is that I disagree with his figures, and then not even on a factual basis. In other words, I don't like them. I have also admited that I leave that on the side when I take part in another debate.

You on the other hand just can't seem to get past the fact that I don't like Saxton's figures and won't leave that alone. You ignore the fact that this doesn't color my debating. Rather you want to get pissed and angry with me for slandering Saxton for personal opinion. I can say the exact same thing about most of the members of SD.net with their automatic slander of trekkies. The automatic troll connection so many love to give to SB members, or SB label to new trolls. There is also the slander that some give saying all things trek suck. I remember one person saying that because voyager sucked, all trekkies are bad. This ignores the fact that a trekkie might not like voyager.

Oh sure, I slam the ones I see. But even then it usually comes down to an agreement of sorts. Both sides admit their actions in the event.

Problem with this situation is I kinda preempted you on this. I said my say but then I stated that I don't let it color my debating.

Mike, why not let the issue go? Without any evidence on my side all I am giving is opinion, colored opinion at that.

[Alyeska]

No, but he will slander Curtis Saxton as a dishonest Warsie spouting bullshit and pulling numbers out of his ass with impunity, and them innocently say "who, me?" if someone tries to call him on it. I hold Mr. Saxton in high regard and I'm sick of seeing people blast his work as "bullshit", even if they grudgingly accept that it's "official bullshit", to use Alyeska's term.

This is what the Alyeskas of the world have been doing even before the ICS came out.

Curtis has shown, time and again, more than enough proof that his numbers are derived from legitimate calcs and sources. Those that can't accept this...piss and moan.

Just pouring gas on the fire.

If you are interested, you can conduct some searches at SB and you will find that I took part in only three debates regarding ICS where I disagreed with it. Here, well I stated my dislike with it but also my acceptance of it by the rules. You might also want to note that I only stated my opinoin of ICS in this specific thread. I have not been going out shouting my dislike of it and making threads for the sole purpose of slandering Saxton. This thread is about peoples opinion of ICS and its affects. I assumed that meant brutal honesty, and I did give that. I also gave the disclaimer to let people know it does not affect my debates (any search will clearly indicate this).

[Darth Wong]

Actually my only gripe is some of his firepower figures.

Wrong. You don't just state that you dislike the figures; you state quite clearly that you think they're "bullshit" and that Curtis "pulled them out of his ass". You make it into a personal attack on Curtis, and then pretend that you didn't mean anything of the sort.

Problem with this situation is I kinda preempted you on this. I said my say but then I stated that I don't let it color my debating.

And what you seem to ignore is that I don't care whether you let it colour your debating. If you run around accusing Curtis of pulling numbers out of his ass rather than doing his work conscientiously, then I have a problem with that. Who the hell said this had anything to do with debating SW vs ST, rather than your public attacks on Curtis Saxton and my irritation at said attacks?

Mike, why not let the issue go? Without any evidence on my side all I am giving is opinion, colored opinion at that.

That would be true if you just said "I don't like the ICS figures but I'll live with them" (which is what you are pretending now). But you actually said that you think Curtis "pulled them out of his ass", which means that it's more than an opinion on the ICS; it is an opinion on Curtis Saxton. I may not know Curtis that well, but I think highly enough of him that this kind of attack on him annoys me.

[Alyeska]

Actually I didn't start "Slandering" Saxton until after people directly confronted me on the "history" topic. I already stated more then once that I disagree with ICS several times in the past.

Now, I would like to ask you a question Mike. What would the definition be of "Pulling it out of your ass" or "Bullshit" be? I think those are slightly colorful terms for thinking that they are more or less made up, false. It should already be known that I disagreed with the "old" 22GT figure and was skeptical of the 2GT number. Now translate that to the new 200GT figure. Just what sort of reaction did you expect? To be fair, I didn't go about whining and bitching. Sure, I went through an "adjustment" period, but I adapted to the new figures because thats how the debates work. I haven't attacked ICS at every chance, not like Vypr, DarkStar, PyschoSama, or some of the others. Hell, you should KNOW that I disagree with ICS. What I have not done is tried slandering Saxton. I stated with a very colorful comment that I disagree with his figures IN a thread pertaining to our opinions of ICS and its affects on debates. I do NOT post this information elsewhere nor do I go out of my way to attack Saxton in such threads. THIS thread was asking for our opinions, and I gave mine.

The only good thing I can say out of this mess is that it hasn't spilled into other threads.

[Master of Ossus]

Actually I didn't start "Slandering" Saxton until after people directly confronted me on the "history" topic. I already stated more then once that I disagree with ICS several times in the past.

It does not matter when you started your seditious slander of Doctor Saxton, the fact is that you did do it.

Now, I would like to ask you a question Mike. What would the definition be of "Pulling it out of your ass" or "Bullshit" be? I think those are slightly colorful terms for thinking that they are more or less made up, false.

Your definition is correct for "pulling something out of one's ass." It means that someone has presented a figure without any evidence to support it. "Bullshit," however, is a colorful term meaning that someone is deliberately misrepresenting something, or that he is grossly mistaken.

It should already be known that I disagreed with the "old" 22GT figure and was skeptical of the 2GT number. Now translate that to the new 200GT figure. Just what sort of reaction did you expect?

You are expected to examine the evidence and determine if you think it accurate or not. If you find it inaccurate, you are expected to be able to present information on what information should be changed, and what evidence you have to demonstrate that it is incorrect in the initial incarnation of that information.

To be fair, I didn't go about whining and bitching. Sure, I went through an "adjustment" period, but I adapted to the new figures because thats how the debates work. I haven't attacked ICS at every chance, not like Vypr, DarkStar, PyschoSama, or some of the others. Hell, you should KNOW that I disagree with ICS. What I have not done is tried slandering Saxton.

If I walked around and said your arguments were "bullshit," and that you "pulled information out of your ass" then you would have a right to be offended if the statements were untrue. That would fall under the malicious intent laws, and you could even sue me if it was found that your reputation had been significantly damaged by the allegations. What do you think you did to Doctor Saxton?

I stated with a very colorful comment that I disagree with his figures IN a thread pertaining to our opinions of ICS and its affects on debates. I do NOT post this information elsewhere nor do I go out of my way to attack Saxton in such threads.

What do you mean? You stated your opinion in insulting and derogatory terms, without any evidence that your argument was correct. You did go out of your way to attack Doctor Saxton in this thread, did you not?

THIS thread was asking for our opinions, and I gave mine.

In an insulting and derogatory manner.

The only good thing I can say out of this mess is that it hasn't spilled into other threads.

That's true, it hasn't. What does that have to do with anything?

[Darth Wong]

Now, I would like to ask you a question Mike. What would the definition be of "Pulling it out of your ass" or "Bullshit" be? I think those are slightly colorful terms for thinking that they are more or less made up, false.

"Made up, false". In other words, accusations of lying.

I haven't attacked ICS at every chance, not like Vypr, DarkStar, PyschoSama, or some of the others.

True. You're not as bad as those guys. Nevertheless, you did take the opportunity to divert this thread into an opportunity to publicly accuse Saxton of dishonesty.

Hell, you should KNOW that I disagree with ICS. What I have not done is tried slandering Saxton. I stated with a very colorful comment that I disagree with his figures IN a thread pertaining to our opinions of ICS and its affects on debates.

A "colourful comment" that accused him of lying. Which you then insist is not slander.

I do NOT post this information elsewhere nor do I go out of my way to attack Saxton in such threads. THIS thread was asking for our opinions, and I gave mine.

Actually, this thread asked if people were nostalgic for the old days before the ICS came out and made things easier for the SW side, since we could not point to an official figure rather than deriving it from BDZ capabilities and then fighting endless wars with people like Edam over those estimates. At no point did it ask for opinions on the validity of ICS figures.

The only good thing I can say out of this mess is that it hasn't spilled into other threads.

You already took this one off-course, so why make it worse?

[Alyeska]

(sigh)

After reading that I am reminded of a particular line of dialogue from the Tom Clancy book Executive Orders. The President is talking with a representative from the Justice Department about the former Vice President claiming he didn't really resign, thus the current President wasn't the President.

"Bullshit!"
"The plantif would object to the foul use of language, they would request that it be struck from the record and that you be punished for making such an outburst. The judge would agree and would instruct the jury to ingore the remark. Of course its bullshit."

Ok, so what was the point of that entire post? Some times certain language is just a little to strong. I said something without really meaning things to go this far because I hadn't really bothered to think about how someone else might interpret what I said.

Yes, I said Bullshit. I was using with the intent of the what Saxton did being wrong, but not intentionally wrong.

Ok, I am sorry for dragging Saxton's name through the mud.

To clear up what I BELIEVE, here it is.

Saxton wrote the ICS and he did with honesty. From the evidence I have seen in SW I believe ICS to be grossly inflated in CERTAIN aspects, thus I believe that Saxton misrepresented SW, but not with dishonest intent. I would like to prove Saxton wrong, but I am incapable of doing so with the information I have access to.

Now, I will state my respect for Saxton. The compliliation of ICS is pretty damned neat and it has some great information. I also like his website and its database of SW material. I disagree with him on certain issues in his writing of the ICS, but I acknowledge that he wrote the entire thing honestly.

That fair enough?

[Darth Wong]

OK, I feel better now.

[Alyeska]

OK, I feel better now.

Yeah, well I guess I did kinda have my foot in my mouth.

[Vympel]

Well all's well that end's well ...

[Soulman]

Group hug!!!

[Alyeska]

Group hug!!!

[Darth Wong]

That is one big-ass emoticon.

[Sea Skimmer]

Group hug!!!

I now have an image of the Death Star painted like that stuck in my head for some reason. The wider eye is over the superlaser emitter.

[CmdrWilkens]

Group hug!!!

The day that happens will be exactly 24 hours after the heat death of the universe.

[Marcus]

If the big eye is the emitter, what is the smaller eye for? A back up?

~note to self... if I ever build a deathstar, I wont bother with a big ole planet-busting beam of wrong. Sterilized is sterilized, and primary batteries can make any world quite uninhabitable enough. Oh, no, based on SW history what I want for MY Deathstar is a smaller array of big-enough beams for one-shot capship busting (including incoming, uncontrolled Super Star Destroyers) and even more... PDS arrays. As many as can be crammed on, then some more.~

~And no matter what happens, you wont be able to fly the bloody-damned Millenium Falcon into my Hypermatter Reactor~