BSG: Computer Networks

Miles Teg · Post by **Miles Teg** » 2006-01-24 05:02pm

So, I have a huge problem with the "networked computer" loophole in BSG, that I am sure most people are aware of but I want to rant about it. It really bugs me that somehow the Cylons are only able to hack into networked computer system, just because its a network. Apparently they have the tech to remotely manipulate a computer through unknown means (in other words, remote manipulating the hardware directly). The only other explanation is that the BSG universe is completely stupid and leaves networks with open access to anyone and everyone. This raises the question: What stops them from hacking into a stand-alone computer the same way? Why are only networked computer's vulnerable? (Yes, I know, it's bad writing, but the spirit of this board seems to be to try to explains this type of thing in a "logical" way)

My apologies if this has already been discussed.

Miles Teg

Miles Teg · Post by **Miles Teg** » 2006-01-24 05:05pm

Ugh, sorry for the terrible amount of typos in my message.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2006-01-24 05:05pm

Well before the S2 opener, We could have said its because of all the backdoors Baltar build into colonial systems.

But the cylons being able to hack Galactica becuase Geata pluged a few computers together was stupid, I agree.

Post by **weemadando** » 2006-01-24 05:12pm

Its entirely possible, that the Cylons had agents onboard many ships planting bugs/taps on the ships networks. As such, it would only take 1 computer or cable to be compromised in this manner and on a networked vessel, the Cylons would be capable of remotely hacking the entire ship.

On Galactica, a single console somewhere in the ship may have been compromised, thus when the ship was re-networked, the hacking was able to be undertaken.

Or - even more wild (though somewhat plausible), the Cylons might just be fucking awesome at TEMPEST attacks.

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2006-01-24 06:15pm

weemadando wrote:Its entirely possible, that the Cylons had agents onboard many ships planting bugs/taps on the ships networks. As such, it would only take 1 computer or cable to be compromised in this manner and on a networked vessel, the Cylons would be capable of remotely hacking the entire ship.

On Galactica, a single console somewhere in the ship may have been compromised, thus when the ship was re-networked, the hacking was able to be undertaken.

Or - even more wild (though somewhat plausible), the Cylons might just be fucking awesome at TEMPEST attacks.

Heh, they would have to be incredibly fucking awesome to pull TEMPEST attacks to the point having any network is dangerous - especially considering all the armor on the Colonial ships would work against Cylon sensor in such an attack. (For those that don't know, TEMPEST is the term used to describe monitoring a computer system, from a distance, by its electromagnetic emissions, and includes such things as grabbing the image off a computer screen by reading the RF a CRT monitor is producing).

Personally, I chalk the poor network security up to the Colonials being idiots. Or, maybe the Colonials are the ultimate open-source file-sharing freaks.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2006-01-24 06:33pm

Arrow wrote:
Heh, they would have to be incredibly fucking awesome to pull TEMPEST attacks to the point having any network is dangerous - especially considering all the armor on the Colonial ships would work against Cylon sensor in such an attack. (For those that don't know, TEMPEST is the term used to describe monitoring a computer system, from a distance, by its electromagnetic emissions, and includes such things as grabbing the image off a computer screen by reading the RF a CRT monitor is producing).

Personally, I chalk the poor network security up to the Colonials being idiots. Or, maybe the Colonials are the ultimate open-source file-sharing freaks.

Perhaps there's simply some flaw inherent to their operating software that they've never been able to fully get rid of short of not linking the networks, and can't afford to upgrade all their computer systems to newer or better versions that lack these flaws?

Like the flaw with leaving an unsecured wireless network open that anyone can get onto, but is remarkably harder to get into if it's got some type of security protocols going?

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-01-24 07:05pm

weemadando wrote: Or - even more wild (though somewhat plausible), the Cylons might just be fucking awesome at TEMPEST attacks.

What would stop them from just simultaneously attacking all of the non-networked computers, though?

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2006-01-24 07:08pm

General Zod wrote:Perhaps there's simply some flaw inherent to their operating software that they've never been able to fully get rid of short of not linking the networks, and can't afford to upgrade all their computer systems to newer or better versions that lack these flaws?

Like the flaw with leaving an unsecured wireless network open that anyone can get onto, but is remarkably harder to get into if it's got some type of security protocols going?

What? The Colonials could afford to pay for a patch? Or force the orginal developer to develop a patch for free or face punitive actions (as such no new contracts or legal action).

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2006-01-24 07:09pm

Ghetto edit: That should "couldn't", not could.

Either way, the Colonials are fucking stupid when it comes to computer security.

Post by **weemadando** » 2006-01-24 07:12pm

Uraniun235 wrote:
weemadando wrote: Or - even more wild (though somewhat plausible), the Cylons might just be fucking awesome at TEMPEST attacks.
What would stop them from just simultaneously attacking all of the non-networked computers, though?

Well if the ship is networked then they only need to compromise one, say an unshielded personal terminal or something near the skin of the ship.

Its possible that with a non-networked ship they can compromise some terminals, and plant things like the worm that miraculously appeared...

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2006-01-24 07:15pm

Arrow wrote:
General Zod wrote:Perhaps there's simply some flaw inherent to their operating software that they've never been able to fully get rid of short of not linking the networks, and can't afford to upgrade all their computer systems to newer or better versions that lack these flaws?

Like the flaw with leaving an unsecured wireless network open that anyone can get onto, but is remarkably harder to get into if it's got some type of security protocols going?
What? The Colonials could afford to pay for a patch? Or force the orginal developer to develop a patch for free or face punitive actions (as such no new contracts or legal action).

With wireless networks, for example, your system's vulnerable unless you have the WEP turned on. Like Weemadando said, it could just make it easier to break into multiple computers at once, and they simply don't have the security encryption to prevent a total takeover entirely, as opposed to simply delaying it.

For example, suppose they have their communications computers wired separately from engines, ftl, etc. If they networked communications and FTL, then the cylons broke through communications, they'd have a straight route to the engines, instead of having to hack it manually.

Miles Teg · Post by **Miles Teg** » 2006-01-24 07:16pm

weemadando wrote:Its entirely possible, that the Cylons had agents onboard many ships planting bugs/taps on the ships networks. As such, it would only take 1 computer or cable to be compromised in this manner and on a networked vessel, the Cylons would be capable of remotely hacking the entire ship.

On Galactica, a single console somewhere in the ship may have been compromised, thus when the ship was re-networked, the hacking was able to be undertaken.

Or - even more wild (though somewhat plausible), the Cylons might just be fucking awesome at TEMPEST attacks.

Ahh, didn't know there was a term for what I was talking about with "direct hardware manipulation". Unless the colonials are completely incompotent with network security (to the point where they don't understand the concept of an externally isolated network), then the Cylons *must* have phenominal TEMPET attack ability, but for some reason only when computer's are networked, heh. Otherwise, why not just hack into the mainframe of the Galactica even though it's not networked?

Miles Teg

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2006-01-24 07:17pm

weemadando wrote:Well if the ship is networked then they only need to compromise one, say an unshielded personal terminal or something near the skin of the ship.

Which would also be stupid. All of the systems of on the network should be protected to same level as the most sensitive computer on the network. That's common sense and its how it works for classified networks in the defense contracting world. An unshielded personal terminal should be on a seperate network, if networked at all.

Post by **weemadando** » 2006-01-24 07:28pm

Sure in the case of personal systems, they would be on a seperate network or not networked at all, but during the emergency jump sequence, I thought EVERY computer on board was tied in, no matter how insignificant their processing power.

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2006-01-24 07:30pm

General Zod wrote:With wireless networks, for example, your system's vulnerable unless you have the WEP turned on. Like Weemadando said, it could just make it easier to break into multiple computers at once, and they simply don't have the security encryption to prevent a total takeover entirely, as opposed to simply delaying it.

For example, suppose they have their communications computers wired separately from engines, ftl, etc. If they networked communications and FTL, then the cylons broke through communications, they'd have a straight route to the engines, instead of having to hack it manually.

First of all, I doubt they would use wireless networks. A ships sensors could pick up the signal, possibly preventing them for monitoring for external (and possibly hostile) signals within the wireless networks frequency band (for example, you're off-the-shelf wireless route does a beautiful job of jamming IFM). Secondly, with all the metal and hallways, the wireless signal is going to have very serious attentuation, multipath and other distortion problems. And then you're going to have less bandwith than a copper or fiber optic connection. And finally, a wireless network is just one more emission the enemy can use to find you.

And then there are ways you limit intrusions into works. Firewalls, user accounts, proxies, etc. Someone more well versed in IT can list those off.

Oh, and the last, and easiest security measure - shield your cables and when someone does break into your comm computer, UNPLUG THE FUCKING ANTENNIA!!!!

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2006-01-24 07:37pm

Crazedwraith wrote:Well before the S2 opener, We could have said its because of all the backdoors Baltar build into colonial systems.

I put it down to Cylon agents compromising everystage of both the new software and hardware being used by the Colonials, then distributing the compromised parts across the network to prevent detection when the parts are in isolation (aka initial testing).

Why should Baltar be the only one manipulated into adding backdoors? They are millions of other dumb fucks you can conn to get backdoors added.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2006-01-24 07:39pm

Arrow wrote: First of all, I doubt they would use wireless networks. A ships sensors could pick up the signal, possibly preventing them for monitoring for external (and possibly hostile) signals within the wireless networks frequency band (for example, you're off-the-shelf wireless route does a beautiful job of jamming IFM). Secondly, with all the metal and hallways, the wireless signal is going to have very serious attentuation, multipath and other distortion problems. And then you're going to have less bandwith than a copper or fiber optic connection. And finally, a wireless network is just one more emission the enemy can use to find you.

I never suggested that they did use wireless, read my post again. I was using wireless as an example of how their hardware could be vulnerable. Including the fact that the Cylons, being machines, are likely far superior at cracking security encryptions on computers. But unless the computers are networked they'll have a bitch of a time getting at all the critical systems.

And then there are ways you limit intrusions into works. Firewalls, user accounts, proxies, etc. Someone more well versed in IT can list those off.

Unless the cylons are so good at cracking encryption methods that firewalls only delay the inevitable. Didn't they have firewalls up and running when the cylons were hacking into Galactica's network, which only prolonged the inevitable?

Oh, and the last, and easiest security measure - shield your cables and when someone does break into your comm computer, UNPLUG THE FUCKING ANTENNIA!!!!

Somehow I doubt that the antennas aboard a BattleStar are something you can just unplug and plug in on a whim, which'd make that somewhat unpractical.

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2006-01-24 07:58pm

General Zod wrote:I never suggested that they did use wireless, read my post again. I was using wireless as an example of how their hardware could be vulnerable. Including the fact that the Cylons, being machines, are likely far superior at cracking security encryptions on computers. But unless the computers are networked they'll have a bitch of a time getting at all the critical systems.

<snip my quote>

Unless the cylons are so good at cracking encryption methods that firewalls only delay the inevitable. Didn't they have firewalls up and running when the cylons were hacking into Galactica's network, which only prolonged the inevitable?

Ok, the Colonials were obviously savy enough to create sentient AI; otherwise, the Cylons wouldn't exist. Anyone that smart ought to be able to come up with a intelligent firewall or some other intelligent security software than see a cyber attack for exactly what it is, despite however good the Cylons are. Once the software understands its under attack, it can act to isolate network from the attack, at the very least by using a switching mechanism to pull the plug on the link the attack is coming from. The ONLY way the a Cylon attack could be successful in such a system is if the back-doored everything (as ggs thinks) or if they PERFECT knowledge the security systems during combat.

Somehow I doubt that the antennas aboard a BattleStar are something you can just unplug and plug in on a whim, which'd make that somewhat unpractical.

You realize you can get a switch to turn on/off an antenna feed, and it works the same way a lightswitch does. Its all you need.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2006-01-24 08:04pm

Arrow wrote: The ONLY way the a Cylon attack could be successful in such a system is if the back-doored everything (as ggs thinks) or if they PERFECT knowledge the security systems during combat.

Baltar -did- help them break into the military's defense systems before their initial attack on Caprica, and I doubt they've had time to upgrade their operating systems entirely since then. Given how long software development takes.

You realize you can get a switch to turn on/off an antenna feed, and it works the same way a lightswitch does. Its all you need.

I'll concede that, but why would they turn it off in the middle of battle? Wouldn't they need communications working so they can coordinate assaults with their Vipers and the rest of the fleet?

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2006-01-24 08:09pm

Arrow wrote: The ONLY way the a Cylon attack could be successful in such a system is if the back-doored everything (as ggs thinks) or if they PERFECT knowledge the security systems during combat.

They have demonstrated the ability to insert sleeper agents and active agents in all levels of Colonials society. They have demonstrate the ability to get those agents todo something with utterly no regard for if the agent "dies".

Despite this, the Cylons get thier asses kicked in anything approching a fair fight. One old & crusty battlestar and a newer basestar completely kicked the crap out of 2 battlestars and another ship with no loss of life to the battlestars.

Really, the Colonials are right to dispise the Cylons. Beyond for thier human-form agents, they have nothing going for them.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2006-01-24 08:14pm

Oh the Cylons have a better FTL drive. Which is probably how they do thier resurection trick, FTL jump a data capsule to a location for putting back in a body.

They probably picked up the better FTL drive when they "found God" along with thier bio-technology.

Also, Balter probably had a bio-tech chip implanted in him a some stage since we know that Cylon biotech is good enough to fool the primitive medical technology of the Colonials(which really isnt much better than modern day medtech).

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2006-01-24 08:14pm

General Zod wrote: Baltar -did- help them break into the military's defense systems before their initial attack on Caprica, and I doubt they've had time to upgrade their operating systems entirely since then. Given how long software development takes.

And this also gets me - why does one man's work serve as an access point for everything. And furthermore, why wasn't there some agency beating the fuck out of Baltar's "free pass to the fleet" software, finding the holes? That's just plan bad security, right there.

I'll concede that, but why would they turn it off in the middle of battle? Wouldn't they need communications working so they can coordinate assaults with their Vipers and the rest of the fleet?

Because, as I said earlier, you turn if off when your comm system is about to be/just was compromised. By that point in time, your comm system useless to you anyway, and can only be used to serve the enemy's purposes.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2006-01-24 08:16pm

Arrow wrote:
Because, as I said earlier, you turn if off when your comm system is about to be/just was compromised. By that point in time, your comm system useless to you anyway, and can only be used to serve the enemy's purposes.

Of course if the comm system isn't their only access point, then shutting it down is not going to help much.

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2006-01-24 08:18pm

ggs wrote:They have demonstrated the ability to insert sleeper agents and active agents in all levels of Colonials society. They have demonstrate the ability to get those agents todo something with utterly no regard for if the agent "dies".

Yes, and you're right that its only way the could plant an off-switch in the fleet. However, I really have to wonder just how good Colonial background checks are - you would think their sercuity services would notice mulitple with the same face applying for the necessary clearance levels. But, may not, depending on the rules, organization and internal politics.

Koolaidkirby · Post by **Koolaidkirby** » 2006-01-24 08:19pm

Oh, and the last, and easiest security measure - shield your cables and when someone does break into your comm computer, UNPLUG THE FUCKING ANTENNIA!!!!

going from my personal iterpretation of the episode... the computers were all linked via a wireless network(they had to be, or else how could the cylons hack it...*my logic at work*), afterall considering the computers are probably all over the ship it would be alot easier (albiet much more dangerous) to link them via a wireless. That was what the cylons were hacking... and how did geata break the network? oh yes. he unplugged the feed from the other computers, or in your words "HE UNPLUGED THE FUCKING ANTENNIA!!!!" (at least going from what i got from the episode...