BSG: Computer Networks
Moderator: NecronLord
BSG: Computer Networks
So, I have a huge problem with the "networked computer" loophole in BSG, that I am sure most people are aware of but I want to rant about it. It really bugs me that somehow the Cylons are only able to hack into networked computer system, just because its a network. Apparently they have the tech to remotely manipulate a computer through unknown means (in other words, remote manipulating the hardware directly). The only other explanation is that the BSG universe is completely stupid and leaves networks with open access to anyone and everyone. This raises the question: What stops them from hacking into a stand-alone computer the same way? Why are only networked computer's vulnerable? (Yes, I know, it's bad writing, but the spirit of this board seems to be to try to explains this type of thing in a "logical" way)
My apologies if this has already been discussed.
Miles Teg
My apologies if this has already been discussed.
Miles Teg
Now I am become death -- the shatterer of worlds...
-- Oppenheimer 1945
-- Oppenheimer 1945
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Its entirely possible, that the Cylons had agents onboard many ships planting bugs/taps on the ships networks. As such, it would only take 1 computer or cable to be compromised in this manner and on a networked vessel, the Cylons would be capable of remotely hacking the entire ship.
On Galactica, a single console somewhere in the ship may have been compromised, thus when the ship was re-networked, the hacking was able to be undertaken.
Or - even more wild (though somewhat plausible), the Cylons might just be fucking awesome at TEMPEST attacks.
On Galactica, a single console somewhere in the ship may have been compromised, thus when the ship was re-networked, the hacking was able to be undertaken.
Or - even more wild (though somewhat plausible), the Cylons might just be fucking awesome at TEMPEST attacks.
Heh, they would have to be incredibly fucking awesome to pull TEMPEST attacks to the point having any network is dangerous - especially considering all the armor on the Colonial ships would work against Cylon sensor in such an attack. (For those that don't know, TEMPEST is the term used to describe monitoring a computer system, from a distance, by its electromagnetic emissions, and includes such things as grabbing the image off a computer screen by reading the RF a CRT monitor is producing).weemadando wrote:Its entirely possible, that the Cylons had agents onboard many ships planting bugs/taps on the ships networks. As such, it would only take 1 computer or cable to be compromised in this manner and on a networked vessel, the Cylons would be capable of remotely hacking the entire ship.
On Galactica, a single console somewhere in the ship may have been compromised, thus when the ship was re-networked, the hacking was able to be undertaken.
Or - even more wild (though somewhat plausible), the Cylons might just be fucking awesome at TEMPEST attacks.
Personally, I chalk the poor network security up to the Colonials being idiots. Or, maybe the Colonials are the ultimate open-source file-sharing freaks.
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Perhaps there's simply some flaw inherent to their operating software that they've never been able to fully get rid of short of not linking the networks, and can't afford to upgrade all their computer systems to newer or better versions that lack these flaws?Arrow wrote:
Heh, they would have to be incredibly fucking awesome to pull TEMPEST attacks to the point having any network is dangerous - especially considering all the armor on the Colonial ships would work against Cylon sensor in such an attack. (For those that don't know, TEMPEST is the term used to describe monitoring a computer system, from a distance, by its electromagnetic emissions, and includes such things as grabbing the image off a computer screen by reading the RF a CRT monitor is producing).
Personally, I chalk the poor network security up to the Colonials being idiots. Or, maybe the Colonials are the ultimate open-source file-sharing freaks.
Like the flaw with leaving an unsecured wireless network open that anyone can get onto, but is remarkably harder to get into if it's got some type of security protocols going?
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What? The Colonials could afford to pay for a patch? Or force the orginal developer to develop a patch for free or face punitive actions (as such no new contracts or legal action).General Zod wrote:Perhaps there's simply some flaw inherent to their operating software that they've never been able to fully get rid of short of not linking the networks, and can't afford to upgrade all their computer systems to newer or better versions that lack these flaws?
Like the flaw with leaving an unsecured wireless network open that anyone can get onto, but is remarkably harder to get into if it's got some type of security protocols going?
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Well if the ship is networked then they only need to compromise one, say an unshielded personal terminal or something near the skin of the ship.Uraniun235 wrote:What would stop them from just simultaneously attacking all of the non-networked computers, though?weemadando wrote: Or - even more wild (though somewhat plausible), the Cylons might just be fucking awesome at TEMPEST attacks.
Its possible that with a non-networked ship they can compromise some terminals, and plant things like the worm that miraculously appeared...
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With wireless networks, for example, your system's vulnerable unless you have the WEP turned on. Like Weemadando said, it could just make it easier to break into multiple computers at once, and they simply don't have the security encryption to prevent a total takeover entirely, as opposed to simply delaying it.Arrow wrote:What? The Colonials could afford to pay for a patch? Or force the orginal developer to develop a patch for free or face punitive actions (as such no new contracts or legal action).General Zod wrote:Perhaps there's simply some flaw inherent to their operating software that they've never been able to fully get rid of short of not linking the networks, and can't afford to upgrade all their computer systems to newer or better versions that lack these flaws?
Like the flaw with leaving an unsecured wireless network open that anyone can get onto, but is remarkably harder to get into if it's got some type of security protocols going?
For example, suppose they have their communications computers wired separately from engines, ftl, etc. If they networked communications and FTL, then the cylons broke through communications, they'd have a straight route to the engines, instead of having to hack it manually.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
Ahh, didn't know there was a term for what I was talking about with "direct hardware manipulation". Unless the colonials are completely incompotent with network security (to the point where they don't understand the concept of an externally isolated network), then the Cylons *must* have phenominal TEMPET attack ability, but for some reason only when computer's are networked, heh. Otherwise, why not just hack into the mainframe of the Galactica even though it's not networked?weemadando wrote:Its entirely possible, that the Cylons had agents onboard many ships planting bugs/taps on the ships networks. As such, it would only take 1 computer or cable to be compromised in this manner and on a networked vessel, the Cylons would be capable of remotely hacking the entire ship.
On Galactica, a single console somewhere in the ship may have been compromised, thus when the ship was re-networked, the hacking was able to be undertaken.
Or - even more wild (though somewhat plausible), the Cylons might just be fucking awesome at TEMPEST attacks.
Miles Teg
Now I am become death -- the shatterer of worlds...
-- Oppenheimer 1945
-- Oppenheimer 1945
Which would also be stupid. All of the systems of on the network should be protected to same level as the most sensitive computer on the network. That's common sense and its how it works for classified networks in the defense contracting world. An unshielded personal terminal should be on a seperate network, if networked at all.weemadando wrote:Well if the ship is networked then they only need to compromise one, say an unshielded personal terminal or something near the skin of the ship.
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First of all, I doubt they would use wireless networks. A ships sensors could pick up the signal, possibly preventing them for monitoring for external (and possibly hostile) signals within the wireless networks frequency band (for example, you're off-the-shelf wireless route does a beautiful job of jamming IFM). Secondly, with all the metal and hallways, the wireless signal is going to have very serious attentuation, multipath and other distortion problems. And then you're going to have less bandwith than a copper or fiber optic connection. And finally, a wireless network is just one more emission the enemy can use to find you.General Zod wrote:With wireless networks, for example, your system's vulnerable unless you have the WEP turned on. Like Weemadando said, it could just make it easier to break into multiple computers at once, and they simply don't have the security encryption to prevent a total takeover entirely, as opposed to simply delaying it.
For example, suppose they have their communications computers wired separately from engines, ftl, etc. If they networked communications and FTL, then the cylons broke through communications, they'd have a straight route to the engines, instead of having to hack it manually.
And then there are ways you limit intrusions into works. Firewalls, user accounts, proxies, etc. Someone more well versed in IT can list those off.
Oh, and the last, and easiest security measure - shield your cables and when someone does break into your comm computer, UNPLUG THE FUCKING ANTENNIA!!!!
Artillery. Its what's for dinner.
I put it down to Cylon agents compromising everystage of both the new software and hardware being used by the Colonials, then distributing the compromised parts across the network to prevent detection when the parts are in isolation (aka initial testing).Crazedwraith wrote:Well before the S2 opener, We could have said its because of all the backdoors Baltar build into colonial systems.
Why should Baltar be the only one manipulated into adding backdoors? They are millions of other dumb fucks you can conn to get backdoors added.
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I never suggested that they did use wireless, read my post again. I was using wireless as an example of how their hardware could be vulnerable. Including the fact that the Cylons, being machines, are likely far superior at cracking security encryptions on computers. But unless the computers are networked they'll have a bitch of a time getting at all the critical systems.Arrow wrote: First of all, I doubt they would use wireless networks. A ships sensors could pick up the signal, possibly preventing them for monitoring for external (and possibly hostile) signals within the wireless networks frequency band (for example, you're off-the-shelf wireless route does a beautiful job of jamming IFM). Secondly, with all the metal and hallways, the wireless signal is going to have very serious attentuation, multipath and other distortion problems. And then you're going to have less bandwith than a copper or fiber optic connection. And finally, a wireless network is just one more emission the enemy can use to find you.
Unless the cylons are so good at cracking encryption methods that firewalls only delay the inevitable. Didn't they have firewalls up and running when the cylons were hacking into Galactica's network, which only prolonged the inevitable?And then there are ways you limit intrusions into works. Firewalls, user accounts, proxies, etc. Someone more well versed in IT can list those off.
Somehow I doubt that the antennas aboard a BattleStar are something you can just unplug and plug in on a whim, which'd make that somewhat unpractical.Oh, and the last, and easiest security measure - shield your cables and when someone does break into your comm computer, UNPLUG THE FUCKING ANTENNIA!!!!
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
Ok, the Colonials were obviously savy enough to create sentient AI; otherwise, the Cylons wouldn't exist. Anyone that smart ought to be able to come up with a intelligent firewall or some other intelligent security software than see a cyber attack for exactly what it is, despite however good the Cylons are. Once the software understands its under attack, it can act to isolate network from the attack, at the very least by using a switching mechanism to pull the plug on the link the attack is coming from. The ONLY way the a Cylon attack could be successful in such a system is if the back-doored everything (as ggs thinks) or if they PERFECT knowledge the security systems during combat.General Zod wrote:I never suggested that they did use wireless, read my post again. I was using wireless as an example of how their hardware could be vulnerable. Including the fact that the Cylons, being machines, are likely far superior at cracking security encryptions on computers. But unless the computers are networked they'll have a bitch of a time getting at all the critical systems.
<snip my quote>
Unless the cylons are so good at cracking encryption methods that firewalls only delay the inevitable. Didn't they have firewalls up and running when the cylons were hacking into Galactica's network, which only prolonged the inevitable?
You realize you can get a switch to turn on/off an antenna feed, and it works the same way a lightswitch does. Its all you need.Somehow I doubt that the antennas aboard a BattleStar are something you can just unplug and plug in on a whim, which'd make that somewhat unpractical.
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Baltar -did- help them break into the military's defense systems before their initial attack on Caprica, and I doubt they've had time to upgrade their operating systems entirely since then. Given how long software development takes.Arrow wrote: The ONLY way the a Cylon attack could be successful in such a system is if the back-doored everything (as ggs thinks) or if they PERFECT knowledge the security systems during combat.
I'll concede that, but why would they turn it off in the middle of battle? Wouldn't they need communications working so they can coordinate assaults with their Vipers and the rest of the fleet?You realize you can get a switch to turn on/off an antenna feed, and it works the same way a lightswitch does. Its all you need.
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They have demonstrated the ability to insert sleeper agents and active agents in all levels of Colonials society. They have demonstrate the ability to get those agents todo something with utterly no regard for if the agent "dies".Arrow wrote: The ONLY way the a Cylon attack could be successful in such a system is if the back-doored everything (as ggs thinks) or if they PERFECT knowledge the security systems during combat.
Despite this, the Cylons get thier asses kicked in anything approching a fair fight. One old & crusty battlestar and a newer basestar completely kicked the crap out of 2 battlestars and another ship with no loss of life to the battlestars.
Really, the Colonials are right to dispise the Cylons. Beyond for thier human-form agents, they have nothing going for them.
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"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." ~ Stephen Colbert
"One Drive, One Partition, the One True Path" ~ ars technica forums - warrens - on hhd partitioning schemes.
Oh the Cylons have a better FTL drive. Which is probably how they do thier resurection trick, FTL jump a data capsule to a location for putting back in a body.
They probably picked up the better FTL drive when they "found God" along with thier bio-technology.
Also, Balter probably had a bio-tech chip implanted in him a some stage since we know that Cylon biotech is good enough to fool the primitive medical technology of the Colonials(which really isnt much better than modern day medtech).
They probably picked up the better FTL drive when they "found God" along with thier bio-technology.
Also, Balter probably had a bio-tech chip implanted in him a some stage since we know that Cylon biotech is good enough to fool the primitive medical technology of the Colonials(which really isnt much better than modern day medtech).
"Okay, I'll have the truth with a side order of clarity." ~ Dr. Daniel Jackson.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." ~ Stephen Colbert
"One Drive, One Partition, the One True Path" ~ ars technica forums - warrens - on hhd partitioning schemes.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." ~ Stephen Colbert
"One Drive, One Partition, the One True Path" ~ ars technica forums - warrens - on hhd partitioning schemes.
And this also gets me - why does one man's work serve as an access point for everything. And furthermore, why wasn't there some agency beating the fuck out of Baltar's "free pass to the fleet" software, finding the holes? That's just plan bad security, right there.General Zod wrote: Baltar -did- help them break into the military's defense systems before their initial attack on Caprica, and I doubt they've had time to upgrade their operating systems entirely since then. Given how long software development takes.
Because, as I said earlier, you turn if off when your comm system is about to be/just was compromised. By that point in time, your comm system useless to you anyway, and can only be used to serve the enemy's purposes.I'll concede that, but why would they turn it off in the middle of battle? Wouldn't they need communications working so they can coordinate assaults with their Vipers and the rest of the fleet?
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Of course if the comm system isn't their only access point, then shutting it down is not going to help much.Arrow wrote:
Because, as I said earlier, you turn if off when your comm system is about to be/just was compromised. By that point in time, your comm system useless to you anyway, and can only be used to serve the enemy's purposes.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
Yes, and you're right that its only way the could plant an off-switch in the fleet. However, I really have to wonder just how good Colonial background checks are - you would think their sercuity services would notice mulitple with the same face applying for the necessary clearance levels. But, may not, depending on the rules, organization and internal politics.ggs wrote:They have demonstrated the ability to insert sleeper agents and active agents in all levels of Colonials society. They have demonstrate the ability to get those agents todo something with utterly no regard for if the agent "dies".
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going from my personal iterpretation of the episode... the computers were all linked via a wireless network(they had to be, or else how could the cylons hack it...*my logic at work*), afterall considering the computers are probably all over the ship it would be alot easier (albiet much more dangerous) to link them via a wireless. That was what the cylons were hacking... and how did geata break the network? oh yes. he unplugged the feed from the other computers, or in your words "HE UNPLUGED THE FUCKING ANTENNIA!!!!" (at least going from what i got from the episode...Oh, and the last, and easiest security measure - shield your cables and when someone does break into your comm computer, UNPLUG THE FUCKING ANTENNIA!!!!
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