Shadow Death Cloud vs DeathStar

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-12-06 12:46am

XaLEv wrote:This sure sounds like a no-limits fallacy to me. PROVE THEY CAN BLOCK IT! Don't just say "They can block this, so they must be able to block that as well."

No, all I had to do was show there was an extradimensional blocking component. Something to do with how B5 tech works. For some reason, if you block things like that, it doesn't work. That's how the Trekkeis get away with not having to here "JUMP POINT" during their vs, Equinox showed them to block extradimensional things.

DodoBrd16 · Post by **DodoBrd16** » 2002-12-06 12:48am

"WHAT COMMENT ABOUT ZHA'HA'DUM? You replied to a post with a reference to the Black Star in ItB, and you respond to it with a red herring regarding Zha'ha'dum? "
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My mistake, I appologize. My eyes played a trick on me.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-06 12:48am

DodoBrd16 wrote: Assuming it can target it accuratly, there are alot of open areas in the frame work.

OMFG. The Death Star has thousands--perhaps millions--of turbolasers. They can all fire at a rate of about once per second. Even if the weapons could not target and could merely fire blindly at the cloud they would inevitably score some hits with that kind of volume of fire.

DodoBrd16 · Post by **DodoBrd16** » 2002-12-06 12:50am

"Unsubstantiated claim. Small and unprotected SW buildings can be destroyed with kiloton to megaton scale weapons, but the Emperor's Palace on Coruscant is heavily armored and can allegedly withstand numerous turbolaser blasts. Two megatons would do damage, but it almost certainly would not destroy the building. Moreover, the building would clealy not be melted by such an attack."
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Which SW book was this information on the palace stated in?

DodoBrd16 · Post by **DodoBrd16** » 2002-12-06 12:54am

"OMFG. The Death Star has thousands--perhaps millions--of turbolasers. They can all fire at a rate of about once per second. Even if the weapons could not target and could merely fire blindly at the cloud they would inevitably score some hits with that kind of volume of fire."
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I'm certain they would and I'm certain the Death star would win, however it will not be in the span of a snap of the fingers. Thats alot of area to cover with pulse shots. They will eventually rip the SDC to pieces.........I agree.

I also dont think the missiles of the SDC could breach the shields of the Death Star.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-12-06 12:55am

DodoBrd16 wrote:Which SW book was this information on the palace stated in?

2 Thermal Detanators took out Xizors palace, and they crank in at about 10 MT each. And even then they did it by taking out support frames and whatnot in the basement.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-06 12:57am

DodoBrd16 wrote:"One. 200+ gigatons would tear the SPK to peices. It's simply not that durable."
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Assuming it can target it accuratly, there are alot of open areas in the frame work.

Two words. Flak Burst. Even a few percent of such a blast would be more then enough. And of course Star Wars uses 6-megaton guns to cope with attacks by jammer-equipped 2500+G maneuvering starfighters. That’s already three times what a B5 cruiser can take. Hitting a large framework would be Childs play.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-06 12:58am

Ender wrote:
DodoBrd16 wrote:Which SW book was this information on the palace stated in?
2 Thermal Detanators took out Xizors palace, and they crank in at about 10 MT each. And even then they did it by taking out support frames and whatnot in the basement.

The Palace fell down when major supports got vaporized from the inside. Not really suprising.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-12-06 01:00am

Ender wrote: No, all I had to do was show there was an extradimensional blocking component. Something to do with how B5 tech works. For some reason, if you block things like that, it doesn't work. That's how the Trekkeis get away with not having to here "JUMP POINT" during their vs, Equinox showed them to block extradimensional things.

And your proof that any 'extradimensional blocking component' will block B5 hyperspace?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-12-06 01:03am

XaLEv wrote:And your proof that any 'extradimensional blocking component' will block B5 hyperspace?

Parity of function.

It applies to all these debates, wheter it be the trekkies example I gave, assumption of equal working of tech agaisnt one another, or the FTL detection.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-06 01:06am

Who cares about SPK vs shields anyway? Death Star fires its superlaser. If it hits the planet, the SPK is destroyed by the blast. If it hits the SPK, the SPK absorbs a miniscule fraction of its energy, which is enough to heat it to plasma. Either way, it's gone. Done deal.

DodoBrd16 · Post by **DodoBrd16** » 2002-12-06 01:06am

Oh well, you dont have to open a jump point in a ship to seriously hurt it or destroy it, just off to the side of the bugger and let it get wacked by the expanding vortex.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-12-06 01:11am

DodoBrd16 wrote:Oh well, you dont have to open a jump point in a ship to seriously hurt it or destroy it, just off to the side of the bugger and let it get wacked by the expanding vortex.

Even that is iffy. FTL sensors will see the ship coming through hyperspace, meaning they can high tail out of danger, and if they try it from realspace the ship will be in weapons range long before it can open the jump point.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-12-06 01:13am

Ender wrote: Parity of function.

It applies to all these debates, wheter it be the trekkies example I gave, assumption of equal working of tech agaisnt one another, or the FTL detection.

So you give them capabilities they don't have. How nice.

Still a no-limits.

Crossover_Maniac · Post by **Crossover_Maniac** » 2002-12-06 01:13am

Master of Ossus wrote:
Omega-13 wrote:it also puts a deep cold around whatever it surrounds, would that cause a problem for the deathstar?
The Death Star's volume is enormous, and its hull is made of something with such a high specific heat that it can withstand thermonuclear strikes without problems. The deep cold thing would do squat.

The SPK can encompass an entire Earth-size planet.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-12-06 01:17am

You know what as a B-5 fan I am always annoyed by claims from Fivers that "you just open a jump point inside a ship and its over." This manuever was NEVER done in the whole run of the series, where the hell do they get that from???

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-06 01:18am

Stravo wrote:You know what as a B-5 fan I am always annoyed by claims from Fivers that "you just open a jump point inside a ship and its over." This manuever was NEVER done in the whole run of the series, where the hell do they get that from???

Techno-wanking. They assume that a jump point can be opened within solid matter because it can be opened in an upper atmosphere ... which is apparently solid matter

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-06 01:19am

Crossover_Maniac wrote:The SPK can encompass an entire Earth-size planet.

So does the blob of nitrogen and oxygen that we call our atmosphere. Doesn't mean it can hold a candle to Death Star power generation, shielding, absorption, etc.

Crossover_Maniac · Post by **Crossover_Maniac** » 2002-12-06 01:21am

Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:You know what as a B-5 fan I am always annoyed by claims from Fivers that "you just open a jump point inside a ship and its over." This manuever was NEVER done in the whole run of the series, where the hell do they get that from???
Techno-wanking. They assume that a jump point can be opened within solid matter because it can be opened in an upper atmosphere ... which is apparently solid matter

That depends on how much force can be generated by the formation of a jump point. A jump point can destroy a ship that is too close to it when it forms Babylon 5: In the Beginning.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-06 01:23am

Crossover_Maniac wrote:That depends on how much force can be generated by the formation of a jump point. A jump point can destroy a ship that is too close to it when it forms Babylon 5: In the Beginning.

The ability to destroy a ship in a universe where 2 megaton blasts are fatal to top-of-the-line capital warships at a range of half a kilometre is not exactly Death Star-killing power, CM. Need I remind you that the Death Star was sitting less than 100,000km away from Alderaan when it blew up at 5% of the speed of light?

Crossover_Maniac · Post by **Crossover_Maniac** » 2002-12-06 01:25am

Darth Wong wrote:
Crossover_Maniac wrote:The SPK can encompass an entire Earth-size planet.
So does the blob of nitrogen and oxygen that we call our atmosphere. Doesn't mean it can hold a candle to Death Star power generation, shielding, absorption, etc.

I was making reference to the comment about Master of Ossus's statement about the Death Star being 'huge'. It's not that big compared to a planet. I'm not saying the SPK will defeat the Death Star in battle, but if it comes out of hyperspace close enough to envelop it, it could so significant damage to its surface.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-06 01:26am

Crossover_Maniac wrote:I was making reference to the comment about Master of Ossus's statement about the Death Star being 'huge'. It's not that big compared to a planet. I'm not saying the SPK will defeat the Death Star in battle, but if it comes out of hyperspace close enough to envelop it, it could so significant damage to its surface.

How? By making some of the surface buildings a bit chilly in the 30 seconds before it's blown to scrap?

Crossover_Maniac · Post by **Crossover_Maniac** » 2002-12-06 01:32am

Darth Wong wrote:
Crossover_Maniac wrote:That depends on how much force can be generated by the formation of a jump point. A jump point can destroy a ship that is too close to it when it forms Babylon 5: In the Beginning.
The ability to destroy a ship in a universe where 2 megaton blasts are fatal to top-of-the-line capital warships at a range of half a kilometre is not exactly Death Star-killing power, CM. Need I remind you that the Death Star was sitting less than 100,000km away from Alderaan when it blew up at 5% of the speed of light?

I believe you asked if a jump point can be formed in solid matter. The fact that a jump point can generate the energy equivalent of a stragetic nuke answers that question. Now, if the material can withstand that much energy being pumped into it, then no, you can't form a jump point in it. And where did you get the figure for the distance that the Death Star was from Alderaan when it destroyed that planet?

DodoBrd16 · Post by **DodoBrd16** » 2002-12-06 01:34am

And why cant they? Just because it wasnt seen on the series does not mean it cannot be done.

There are a few reasons why we may not have ever seen it used as a weapon during the season, one its not accurate. The minbari were the oldest and most advanced space faring species of the younger races during ITB and even they could only target an area of a few hundred yards.

Two, ships have this annoying little tendency to keep moving during combat, reduces an enemies chance of hitting you.

however if you can get a ship that is sitting still or on a predictable path, you could possibly open a jump point in their ship or off the side of them.((say using a ship with very advanced jump engines, like a WS))

And once again, nothing in the series says you cant open a JP in side of a ship..... and I dont believe the shows creators have either.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-12-06 01:38am

XaLEv wrote:So you give them capabilities they don't have. How nice.
Still a no-limits.

*shrug* then the rules of the debate need to be changed XaLEv. Now the fact that wars has subspace jamming means that applying it to Trek subspace sensors is giving them a capability it is not shown they have. It means that FTL sensors don't do shit for any side anymore. It means that we can assume phasers will fly through shields and TLs will as well, because each sides shields were never shown to stop them. It is a crossover. You assume the tech will work because in a crossover there is no baseline reference for proof.

Lets do a quick rehash here:
Ender: An extradimensional blocking component to shields stops B5 from returning to Realspace inside ships. Here is proof that shields have an extradimensional blocking component.
You guys: Prove that it will affect B5 hyperspace.
Ender: Parity of function dictates that we assume it does
You guys: No, provide hard proof or it is a no limits fallacy.

You keep demanding "prove it will block B5 FTL" well I can't because B5 FTL doesn't exist in Wars. So of course I cannot show it will specifically block it. You can't prove a negative. But I have shown the capability to block extradimensionaly, meaning parity of function negates this tactic. Even if you deny that then it is a simple extrapolation in tactics that they could use it to cover more bands, another thing that is allowed in the debates, hence why honorverse people can use grav wedges as weapons, and more to the point, how B5 is able to use jump points inside ships even though opening one inside a ship has never been shown.