Shadow Death Cloud vs DeathStar

[Sea Skimmer]

I was making reference to the comment about Master of Ossus's statement about the Death Star being 'huge'. It's not that big compared to a planet. I'm not saying the SPK will defeat the Death Star in battle, but if it comes out of hyperspace close enough to envelop it, it could so significant damage to its surface.

How? By making some of the surface buildings a bit chilly in the 30 seconds before it's blown to scrap?

Assuming they don't just turn down the heat dissipation systems a notch.

In the words of Colonel Ourumov "You cant win"

[Ender]

I believe you asked if a jump point can be formed in solid matter. The fact that a jump point can generate the energy equivalent of a stragetic nuke answers that question.

No it doesn't.

[Crossover_Maniac]

I was making reference to the comment about Master of Ossus's statement about the Death Star being 'huge'. It's not that big compared to a planet. I'm not saying the SPK will defeat the Death Star in battle, but if it comes out of hyperspace close enough to envelop it, it could so significant damage to its surface.

How? By making some of the surface buildings a bit chilly in the 30 seconds before it's blown to scrap?

The buildings were shaking when the X-Wings was making their run on the Death Star. What do you think thousands of multi-gigaton missiles will do. Besides, if the Death Star is invincible, then why all of the HTL's for defense against a fleet of capital ships?

[Sea Skimmer]

And why cant they? Just because it wasnt seen on the series does not mean it cannot be done.

There are a few reasons why we may not have ever seen it used as a weapon during the season, one its not accurate. The minbari were the oldest and most advanced space faring species of the younger races during ITB and even they could only target an area of a few hundred yards.

Two, ships have this annoying little tendency to keep moving during combat, reduces an enemies chance of hitting you.


however if you can get a ship that is sitting still or on a predictable path, you could possibly open a jump point in their ship or off the side of them.((say using a ship with very advanced jump engines, like a WS))

And once again, nothing in the series says you cant open a JP in side of a ship..... and I dont believe the shows creators have either.

Yeah, B5 cap ships pull lots of hard turns and fly highly evasive courses in combat.

You've admitted it is an ability that is totally unfounded, and the series had plenty of times when it would have been useful. The logical conclusion it is not possibul.

[Stravo]

I believe you asked if a jump point can be formed in solid matter. The fact that a jump point can generate the energy equivalent of a stragetic nuke answers that question.

HUH??!!

Just what the fuck does that answer?

NEVER NOT ONCE has this tactic ever even been ATTEMPTED. COme on give me a break with that crap. I'm as much a B-5 fan as anyone and I don't accept that tactic because not once in their most desperate hour has it EVER been tried.

[Ender]

You've admitted it is an ability that is totally unfounded, and the series had plenty of times when it would have been useful. The logical conclusion it is not possibul.

The fiver explanation for them not being commonly used is "jump point Jammers'

[Stravo]

You've admitted it is an ability that is totally unfounded, and the series had plenty of times when it would have been useful. The logical conclusion it is not possibul.

The fiver explanation for them not being commonly used is "jump point Jammers'

Funny that...NOT ONCE are they EVER mentioned either...Christ!

[Crossover_Maniac]

I believe you asked if a jump point can be formed in solid matter. The fact that a jump point can generate the energy equivalent of a stragetic nuke answers that question.

HUH??!!

Just what the fuck does that answer?

NEVER NOT ONCE has this tactic ever even been ATTEMPTED. COme on give me a break with that crap. I'm as much a B-5 fan as anyone and I don't accept that tactic because not once in their most desperate hour has it EVER been tried.

It was never tried because of the lack of accuracy in forming jump points. The Minbari jump engines are accurate enough to form jump points close enough to a EA ship to destroy it if the ship can be lurd to a predestinated spot Babylon 5: In the Beginning.

[Ender]

You've admitted it is an ability that is totally unfounded, and the series had plenty of times when it would have been useful. The logical conclusion it is not possibul.

The fiver explanation for them not being commonly used is "jump point Jammers'

Funny that...NOT ONCE are they EVER mentioned either...Christ!

Actually, apparently they were, in ITB, something about the battle of the line and the mimbari punching through the jamming field.

[Stravo]

HUH??!!

Just what the fuck does that answer?

NEVER NOT ONCE has this tactic ever even been ATTEMPTED. COme on give me a break with that crap. I'm as much a B-5 fan as anyone and I don't accept that tactic because not once in their most desperate hour has it EVER been tried.

It was never tried because of the lack of accuracy in forming jump points. The Minbari jump engines are accurate enough to form jump points close enough to a EA ship to destroy it if the ship can be lurd to a predestinated spot Babylon 5: In the Beginning.

So in other words it CAN'T be done.

[Ender]

It was never tried because of the lack of accuracy in forming jump points. The Minbari jump engines are accurate enough to form jump points close enough to a EA ship to destroy it if the ship can be lurd to a predestinated spot Babylon 5: In the Beginning.

Yes, the fact that the ships need to be brought to a specific place and then have their coordinates transmitted is a fact often glossed over.

[Ender]

Why does my post show in the forum listing, but not in the thread or a page 5, whhich it was the start of?

[Ender]

NM, there we go

[DodoBrd16]

"Yeah, B5 cap ships pull lots of hard turns and fly highly evasive courses in combat.

You've admitted it is an ability that is totally unfounded, and the series had plenty of times when it would have been useful. The logical conclusion it is not possibul."
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There were plenty of times when opening a JP off the side of a ship would have been very convienent and destroyed the enemy......but they didnt do it.....its not because a JP wouldnt destroy enemy ships.....we saw in ITB that it can and will destroy warships, the commanders just never thought about it at the time.

Now there is NOTHING in the entire series, including crusade and LOTR, that says a Jump point cannot be opened inside of a star ship. However getting that star ship in the exact right location and hitting the right point with your jump engines is not an easy thing and makes using Jump points as offensive weaponry very unrealistic from a military point of view.

And a standard forward Zig Zag pattern is not above most of the races of Babylon five.

[Typhonis 1]

So they((B5)) can now open a jump point in a very fast moving target(I think the DS traveled 200,000km in twenty min and was Accelerating the whole time))While dsaid target is using jamming equipment that alters spacetime in the area around it to a point((Ref ANH novelization))

[Ender]

There were plenty of times when opening a JP off the side of a ship would have been very convienent and destroyed the enemy......but they didnt do it.....its not because a JP wouldnt destroy enemy ships.....we saw in ITB that it can and will destroy warships, the commanders just never thought about it at the time.

So it's not a hardware problem, they are all just morons? A jump point inside the thirdspace gate would have ended the movie inside 5 minutes. Why didn't they do it? (aside from the fact it would have ended the movie inside 5 minutes)

Now there is NOTHING in the entire series, including crusade and LOTR, that says a Jump point cannot be opened inside of a star ship.

Ooh, Adarx logic. There is also nothing showing that they can. Since there is no evidence either way, you assume they can?

And for those who think they will be smart and try to use this against me, 1) I have proof of the capability, even though it might not specifically work on their particular brand of hyperspace. They have zero proof whatsoever of this capability
2) Gathering specific proof in my case would be impossible, whereas the existence of solid proof should be readily available to them

However getting that star ship in the exact right location and hitting the right point with your jump engines is not an easy thing and makes using Jump points as offensive weaponry very unrealistic from a military point of view.

Finally, a 5er who admits it

[DodoBrd16]

The death star does sit still and in predictable orbits from time to time you know.

However I doubt this tactic could be done to the Death star. The offensive systems of the DS would shred any ship trying to enter range to effectively use their JP on it. And jamming would probably make it impossible for an offensive force to transmit the DS's exact location to waiting ships in Hyperspace.

[DodoBrd16]

"Ooh, Adarx logic. There is also nothing showing that they can. Since there is no evidence either way, you assume they can? "
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It might work, it might not. All I know is that there is nothing saying it cant. The option is left open. And I have also said that it would not be a realistic weapon system against things like star ships. They have the tendency to travel on un predictable courses.


"So it's not a hardware problem, they are all just morons? A jump point inside the thirdspace gate would have ended the movie inside 5 minutes. Why didn't they do it? (aside from the fact it would have ended the movie inside 5 minutes) "
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Instead of just pulling the Jedi out and and nuking the Droid army from orbit in AOTC, the Republic deployed forces to fight them on equal terms. So just because they didnt nuke them from orbit, should we just assume that they cant?

The simple fact is that they could have plastered the area from orbit and the forces assualting the TS gate could have swatted it aside with a JP. And in a realistic situation, if these shows were not fiction but real life, then they most likely would have done the smart thing.

The reason why the smart path is not taken is because there would be no spectacle. JMS wanted a fleet battle to make peoples jaws drop open and drool. And Lucas wanted a massive ground battle for the same reasons.

But if you dont want to bring reality into this, then the commanders of both the B5 force assaulting the Gate and the commanders of the Republics clone army are just dumb ass's.

[Darth Wong]

It might work, it might not. All I know is that there is nothing saying it cant. The option is left open.

No, it isn't. With no particular reason to believe that a jump point can be opened in solid matter, the burden of proof is upon you to prove that this capability exists, otherwise it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that it does not.

The simple fact is that they could have plastered the area from orbit and the forces assualting the TS gate could have swatted it aside with a JP. And in a realistic situation, if these shows were not fiction but real life, then they most likely would have done the smart thing.

The "smart thing" in the minds of sci-fi fanboys is usually WMD. However, that is not necessarily what real people will do. If you guys ran real wars, America would have nuked half the countries on Earth by now, and gotten nuked in return.

[Crown]

I would like to dispute the claim that B5 ships didn't have the accuracy to use JP as weapons. I forget exactly which episode it was, but the point I am remebering is the 'Bonehead maneouvre'. Which basically is opening a JP, inside another JP. Now if the jump engines weren't accurate, then how the fuck could this maneouvre have ever been accomplished. Now I know what you are all going to say; but that was the whitestar!

I would ask you all to remember that the dialogue was between Ivanova and Sheriden. One was asking the other if they remembered what would happened if one attempted this manouvre. This indicates that the EA (an much younger race than the Minbari), had the ability to open one JP inside another sometime between ItB and 2258. And yet, JP tactics were still not used!

Another point. In the episode; Deconstructing falling stars basically where we fast forward 1,000,000 years into the future, humans have evolved into Vorlon types, and appear to be in the same technological spot. We learn that our beloved Sol goes nova. Now at first I was wondering a very loud and angry WTF? But JMS explained that obviously that it wasn't a natural phenominon, but the Humans at that point induced the Sun to go nova, by over the course of days (weeks?) opening JP inside Sol and unstabilising it.

So this begs the question. If the EA had the ability to open one JP inside another one, why didn't they ever show the ability to target another ship? Aslo if humans in 1,000,000 years can induce a Sun to go nova by opening JP's inside it, why didn't the Vorlons do the same to the Shadows, or the YR during the 'battles'?

However, as Mike said, the ability of a JP to destroy a ship in a universe where a 2MT nuke is enough to destroy a ship it's superior doesn't mean a god damn thing.

[XaLEv]

*shrug* then the rules of the debate need to be changed XaLEv. Now the fact that wars has subspace jamming means that applying it to Trek subspace sensors is giving them a capability it is not shown they have. It means that FTL sensors don't do shit for any side anymore. It means that we can assume phasers will fly through shields and TLs will as well, because each sides shields were never shown to stop them. It is a crossover. You assume the tech will work because in a crossover there is no baseline reference for proof.

Lets do a quick rehash here:
Ender: An extradimensional blocking component to shields stops B5 from returning to Realspace inside ships. Here is proof that shields have an extradimensional blocking component.
You guys: Prove that it will affect B5 hyperspace.
Ender: Parity of function dictates that we assume it does
You guys: No, provide hard proof or it is a no limits fallacy.

You keep demanding "prove it will block B5 FTL" well I can't because B5 FTL doesn't exist in Wars. So of course I cannot show it will specifically block it. You can't prove a negative. But I have shown the capability to block extradimensionaly, meaning parity of function negates this tactic. Even if you deny that then it is a simple extrapolation in tactics that they could use it to cover more bands, another thing that is allowed in the debates, hence why honorverse people can use grav wedges as weapons, and more to the point, how B5 is able to use jump points inside ships even though opening one inside a ship has never been shown.

And this one is a false dilemma.

Phasers operate in realspace and have been shown to be blocked by shields operating in realspace, therefore, Star Wars shields - which operate in realspace will block phasers, because both operate in realspace. Star Wars FTL sensors have been shown to detect objects in realspace; Trek vessels have been shown to exist in realspace, therefore Wars FTL sensors will be able to detect Trek ships because they both operate....in realspace! Star Wars shields have been shown to block phenomena in Star Wars Hyperspace; Babylon Five ships travel in Babylon Five Hyperspace, therefore Star Wars shields - operating in Star Wars Hyperspace - will not be able to block objects in Babylon Five Hyperspace because the two hyperspaces are not the same.

You are taking your precious Parity of Function to extremes, saying that if a shield can block one thing it must be able to block all other things even remotely similar, despite all differences, whereas the logical use would the example above.

[SirNitram]

XaLev, there is no evidence anything from extradimensional space can peirce an Imperial shield or armour belt. Reasons are twofold: One, it is speficially stated Hypercomms and Subspace based comms can't peirce them. Second is the common acknolwedgement(At least through the variety of genres I've seen) that high density metals block extradimensional travel. There is no evidence anywhere B5 Hyperspace would be capable of skipping through particle shields.

[Patrick Degan]

Now assuming that the Imperials are able to target the super structure, how many shots would it take to destroy the thing?

Only one, if they figure out how to target the central node.

And if not, well, there's alwayws simple volume of firepower to do the job.

The Shadow Deathcloud would really represent no threat to a Death Star.

• The deathcloud is a slow-moving object (relatively speaking, that is)
• The deathcloud takes an interminably long time to fully deploy around or over a target and ready its missiles for firing.
• Deathclouds do not appear to be able to simply materialise immediately above the target ("Into The Fire", A Call To Arms).
• Deathclouds do not appear to be able to reenter hyperspace once they drop into normal space, and thus constitutes a one-shot weapon system.
• No deathcloud has ever been deployed against a target with either planetary shields or massive numbers of weapons' emplacements capable of rapid multiple fire in omindirectional offense/defence.

Given the above factors, it does not seem likely that a Death Star commander would feel his mission jeopardised by the appearance of one of these weapons. Even if it were capable of somehow penetrating the battlestation's defences, it certainly would not be able to do so before the Death Star could destroy its primary target with a superlaser blast.

[Scorpius]

I would like to dispute the claim that B5 ships didn't have the accuracy to use JP as weapons. I forget exactly which episode it was, but the point I am remebering is the 'Bonehead maneouvre'. Which basically is opening a JP, inside another JP. Now if the jump engines weren't accurate, then how the fuck could this maneouvre have ever been accomplished. Now I know what you are all going to say; but that was the whitestar!

I think what happened there was that they opened a jump point inside a jump GATE which caused the big boom, The jump gate being stationary (as much as anything in space is...) made it easy to target. The result was also a destroyed jump gate, which means no hyperspace travel to that area for any small ships that can't open their own jump point

[Scorpius]

Another point. In the episode; Deconstructing falling stars basically where we fast forward 1,000,000 years into the future, humans have evolved into Vorlon types, and appear to be in the same technological spot. We learn that our beloved Sol goes nova. Now at first I was wondering a very loud and angry WTF? But JMS explained that obviously that it wasn't a natural phenominon, but the Humans at that point induced the Sun to go nova, by over the course of days (weeks?) opening JP inside Sol and unstabilising it.

Why would they do such a silly thing? They never said that in the episode, right? Was that JMS in an after-show interview or something?

-Oh by the way Death Star kicks Shadow Planet Killer in the balls with one Superlaser blast if the other Turbolasers do nothing (even though I love the Shadows as villains, they don't stand a chance against the Death Star...)