Star Wars Engines Idea

[General_Paul]

Well, I know I don't post here very often but I had an idea that may just be flamed out of this world.:

The vessels of the Empire, specifically the Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers, are nigh impregnable fortresses for the Federation to attempt to take out. However, it appears that no one has addressed this issue, to the best of my knowledge. Why don't the Federation vessels simply fire a barrage of Photon or Quantum Torpedos directly down the Engine Bell of the Star Destroyers? I don't know a lot about the shielding of those reactors, but those thrusters feed directly down to the fusion reactors and the hypermatter reactors?

[OmegaGuy]

Um.... shields?

[Connor MacLeod]

Engines are more than likely covered by the shield arcs (or they can be if they're extended), so they'd only be 'vulnerable' when the shields were open to leat the ion engine exhaust out. However, said exhaust is going to be a stream of relatativsitc charged particles moving at VERY close to c, meaning they carry a fuckload of KE (ie they'll probably vaporize anything passing close to them, considering that the engine straem is going to be capable of carrying a substantial fraction of the ship's max reactor output.)

Hell, the fact that those thrust nozzles are designed to handle such massive thrust streams sortt of suggests they're pretty durable. (And there's always the magnetic steering fields that could be used to deflect the torps.)

In short, its doubtful the tactic would work, no matter how you approach it.

[Surlethe]

Out to some large distance from the ship, the thrust particle streams are likely to remain thin, straight, well-collimated cylinders. Passing through the stream anywhere in this region must be dangerous. Even a peripheral exposure is likely to feel like an intense, possibly lethal cosmic ray shower. A particle shield may provide some protection against such irradiation, but any object standing directly in the beam will experience the stream's thrust. The victim could be blown away downstream at hundreds or thousands of G.

Heat transfer from the stream may also be lethal. Even if the stream particles are ice-cold in their own reference frame, their relativistic impact into a solid surface must cause tremendous shock-heating, as bulk kinetic energy is converted to thermal energy. The post-shock temperature may be orders of magnitude greater than the temperature of the undisturbed flow or the interior of the engine that emitted the stream. Depending on mass and surface area, the transgressing object may be vapourised before it is accelerated appreciably. It therefore seems likely that all small starships have at least some minimal shields (including TIE fighters), whether or not they're battle-worthy.

At ordinary inter-ship separations, the relatively narrow drive trails pose little physical risk. The chance of crossing the path of a randomly oriented ship (with intense but well collimated drive streams) diminishes like the inverse square of distance. However, flying deliberately at the tail of a dogfight foe is more hazardous. The survivability of the encounter depends on a comparison between one ship's engine power and the dissipative power of the intercepting ship's shields. Naval ships of comparable power may be able to endure each others' emissions, if their shields are fully raised or if the engines are idling. However the thrust stream of a large commercial or naval vessel may be lethal to a starfighter: a fighter entering a star destroyer's trail within viewing distance of the ship might be torn apart and lethally irradiated instantaneously.

[Mad]

In The Bacta War, New Republic ships attacked the engines of the Executor-class Lusankya. It helped, but the Lusankya survived the battle. Federation weaponry isn't going to be more effective than what the Valiant threw at it.

[Elheru Aran]

And let us not forget the Kzinti Gambit... or whatever Niven called it, that bit where he points out that the thrust from an engine, will send a hefty bit of energy in the opposite direction... somehow, I don't think a Federation starship would appreciate that much.

To be sure, that depends upon how close they fire from, but that'd certainly ruin their days if they were close enough for said thrust to have any appreciable effect on 'em...

[Darth Yoshi]

In Dark Force Rising, Karrde skims the exhaust of the ISD Chimaera to force the TIEs to attack from one direction.

[The Silence and I]

Before anyone mentions it...

Yes, photon torpedoes can survive entry into a star, indicating their shields are extremely powerful (it's not just the heat, they penetrate at high speed too), but compared to a thrust stream like described above, waltzing into a star is I think comparatively easy, keeping in mind the mass flow and the relatavistic particle speeds. So a photon torpedo might survive briefly at best, but it cannot be expected to survive long enough to enter the engine bells, where there is a chance it could cause damage.

If the engines are not on, then I expect shields will block off the openings--after all I'm sure someone has tried this before in Star Wars, and a countermeasure developed.

[Connor MacLeod]

The intensity between penetrating into a star and burrowing into the thrust stream of an ion engine (of an ISd-sized vessel) is a tad different, methinks.

[The Silence and I]

Which is exactly why I said as much

[Lord Revan]

it should noted that (IIRC) the Ravager still used all of it's engines dispate being in so bad shape that it's implied that only thing keeping it together is the will of its commander (who's a Sith Lord) and all of this is due to battle damage (the said Sith couldn't or did not care to repair the ship). This suggest that the Engines are not a very easy thing to destroy.

I seriously dout that no one would ever would have tried to shoot at the engines of starship during the 25.000 year history of Republic (yes the Galactic Republic is that old (though the latest (pre NR) incarnation was only 1.000 years old)).

[Knife]

Well, I know I don't post here very often but I had an idea that may just be flamed out of this world.:

The vessels of the Empire, specifically the Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers, are nigh impregnable fortresses for the Federation to attempt to take out. However, it appears that no one has addressed this issue, to the best of my knowledge. Why don't the Federation vessels simply fire a barrage of Photon or Quantum Torpedos directly down the Engine Bell of the Star Destroyers? I don't know a lot about the shielding of those reactors, but those thrusters feed directly down to the fusion reactors and the hypermatter reactors?

You have to figure that sometime in the last 25 thousand year, they thought of that. I would imagine that shield arcs would cover all but whatever is needed for the thrust streams to go through. Even durring manuvering, I'd imagine that 'controled' shifts in the shields tied to shifts in the vectored thrust would keep the engines protected except for where the trust was.

Getting directly behind an engine is usually a bad idea in just about any universe I can think of. SW and ST being in the top two. Even if your ship can handle it, doesn't mean your weapons will. Besides which, doesn't dicount the posssible ability of the SD to kill it's thrust and put up shields in that arc.

[Kuja]

You have to figure that sometime in the last 25 thousand year, they thought of that. I would imagine that shield arcs would cover all but whatever is needed for the thrust streams to go through. Even durring manuvering, I'd imagine that 'controled' shifts in the shields tied to shifts in the vectored thrust would keep the engines protected except for where the trust was.

Getting directly behind an engine is usually a bad idea in just about any universe I can think of. SW and ST being in the top two. Even if your ship can handle it, doesn't mean your weapons will. Besides which, doesn't dicount the posssible ability of the SD to kill it's thrust and put up shields in that arc.

That would be one hell of rear-end collision.

[Knife]

You have to figure that sometime in the last 25 thousand year, they thought of that. I would imagine that shield arcs would cover all but whatever is needed for the thrust streams to go through. Even durring manuvering, I'd imagine that 'controled' shifts in the shields tied to shifts in the vectored thrust would keep the engines protected except for where the trust was.

Getting directly behind an engine is usually a bad idea in just about any universe I can think of. SW and ST being in the top two. Even if your ship can handle it, doesn't mean your weapons will. Besides which, doesn't dicount the posssible ability of the SD to kill it's thrust and put up shields in that arc.

That would be one hell of rear-end collision.

Something I'd have to ask Ender; PT/TT level sheilding or the thrust stream big enough to move a SD sized object at thousands/tens of thousands of G's.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

And let us not forget the Kzinti Gambit... or whatever Niven called it, that bit where he points out that the thrust from an engine, will send a hefty bit of energy in the opposite direction... somehow, I don't think a Federation starship would appreciate that much.

To be sure, that depends upon how close they fire from, but that'd certainly ruin their days if they were close enough for said thrust to have any appreciable effect on 'em...

Kzinti Lesson: A reaction drive's efficiency as a weapon is in direct proportion to its efficiency as a drive.

[Ender]

Well, I know I don't post here very often but I had an idea that may just be flamed out of this world.:

The vessels of the Empire, specifically the Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers, are nigh impregnable fortresses for the Federation to attempt to take out. However, it appears that no one has addressed this issue, to the best of my knowledge. Why don't the Federation vessels simply fire a barrage of Photon or Quantum Torpedos directly down the Engine Bell of the Star Destroyers? I don't know a lot about the shielding of those reactors, but those thrusters feed directly down to the fusion reactors and the hypermatter reactors?

The engines dump out literally hundreds of thousands of tons of matter (millions of tons fo the bigger ships) at velocities close enough to the speed of light that photon rocket equations can be used to model their behavior. Your torpedos will be utterly annihilated well before they even get close to the engine bell.

[Ender]

You have to figure that sometime in the last 25 thousand year, they thought of that. I would imagine that shield arcs would cover all but whatever is needed for the thrust streams to go through. Even durring manuvering, I'd imagine that 'controled' shifts in the shields tied to shifts in the vectored thrust would keep the engines protected except for where the trust was.

Getting directly behind an engine is usually a bad idea in just about any universe I can think of. SW and ST being in the top two. Even if your ship can handle it, doesn't mean your weapons will. Besides which, doesn't dicount the posssible ability of the SD to kill it's thrust and put up shields in that arc.

That would be one hell of rear-end collision.

Something I'd have to ask Ender; PT/TT level sheilding or the thrust stream big enough to move a SD sized object at thousands/tens of thousands of G's.

While I personally prefer to use relativistic numbers for doing the calcs (it makes the overall numbers line up better in terms of mass and operating times etc) you can reach a good approximation by using the equations for photon drives due to the extremely high velocity of the thrust stream. This can also be used to determine the output of the reactor, as the engines will be the single biggest load on it and other systems used during maximum thrust will basically be so small as to be insignificant (eg light weapons weapons hundreds of MT is in the 10^17 range, compared to the main engines in the 10^25). However thrust streams are poorly collaminated, so intensity will drop off in keeping with diffraction, electrostatic repulsion, and the heisenberg uncertaintly principle (yes the last one is actually a good factor, its why even neutral particle beams will spread out). The energy will also drop of once within the stream due to gamma eruptions due to collisions in the matter stream.

In short it comes down to this - a warship of the same strength or better can survive the energy being applied briefly; though if their shield mounts can withstand the force being applied is another question entirely. Smaller ships might be able to survive if the only catch a part of it (EG Karrde's skimming the very edge of the stream); small fighters evidently pack enough shielding to prevent the death of pilots from the gamma flashes in normal accel, but a maximum acceleration or turn might result in enough gamma radiation being released to kill them (this is one of the two reasons all ships require shields despite what the EU says)

[Eleas]

Kzinti Lesson: A reaction drive's efficiency as a weapon is in direct proportion to its efficiency as a drive.

I would very much dispute that. Drives don't benefit from a focused beam, unlike beam weaponry.

[Ender]

Kzinti Lesson: A reaction drive's efficiency as a weapon is in direct proportion to its efficiency as a drive.

I would very much dispute that. Drives don't benefit from a focused beam, unlike beam weaponry.

And I'll dispute the heck out of that, weapons are not a focused beam eaither. They expand due to difraction (lasers), electorstatic bloom, are warped by magnetic fields, have internal collisions, and their emitters have flaws.

Further your criticism has zero reflection on Einy's statement, it is not comparing them to weapons, simply speaking of their power. And the engines are going to be the most powerful system on the ship.

[Eleas]

And I'll dispute the heck out of that, weapons are not a focused beam eaither. They expand due to difraction (lasers), electorstatic bloom, are warped by magnetic fields, have internal collisions, and their emitters have flaws.

Further your criticism has zero reflection on Einy's statement, it is not comparing them to weapons, simply speaking of their power.

So he did not, in fact, speak of their efficiency as weapons?

[Eleas]

...okay, I'll stop. I'm whoring semantics, and I don't really want to be doing that.

[Solauren]

Also, most Imperial starships have guns at the back to shot down people trying this tactic.


"Hey look, one of those 'Sovereign' Class ships is trying to toss there idea of torpedoes up our ass"

"Geez, even there tactics have gone to shit! Fire Rear Turbolasers!"

[Winston Blake]

Also, most Imperial starships have guns at the back to shot down people trying this tactic.

"Hey look, one of those 'Sovereign' Class ships is trying to toss there idea of torpedoes up our ass"

"Geez, even there tactics have gone to shit! Fire Rear Turbolasers!"

Still, an ISD is overwhelmingly suited to killing things in front of it, since the wedge shape allows almost all guns to fire forward, and half in any lateral direction. The ass is probably the safest spot to attack an ISD. Even though the engine nozzles themselves are belching out mindboggling power, the surrounding areas are probably the least weapons-bristling.

[FOG3]

Has the mental picture occured to anyone else, of them torching Fed ships on purpose with the engines in funky ways? Followed by the various Star Destroyer captains getting together for a spot of tea, and having long discussions akin to the comercials with the basketball players going on about bouncing the ball of x,y, and z?

[Ender]

Also, most Imperial starships have guns at the back to shot down people trying this tactic.

"Hey look, one of those 'Sovereign' Class ships is trying to toss there idea of torpedoes up our ass"

"Geez, even there tactics have gone to shit! Fire Rear Turbolasers!"

Still, an ISD is overwhelmingly suited to killing things in front of it, since the wedge shape allows almost all guns to fire forward, and half in any lateral direction. The ass is probably the safest spot to attack an ISD. Even though the engine nozzles themselves are belching out mindboggling power, the surrounding areas are probably the least weapons-bristling.

In number of weapons, sure. In terms of energy hell no. When a cap ship cuts loose, it can direct all its energy to its main guns, which fire at a rate of about every 1.5 sec based on ROTS (A Venator cuts loose with 12 shots in a second from one side, average it out over the 8 guns on that side). But all the energy from the reactors can come out the engine nozzles. Much worse plan.