Thrawn or Palleon?

[Publius]

Could the seemingly contradictory premises of "Pellaeon is not a criminal" and "Pellaeon abandoned Teshik" be explained by Teshik's Destroyer simply losing communications? The Pellaeon from HttE would certainly have broadcast some sort of inquiry before assuming he had command (remember, the one thing everyone agrees upon is that he's conservative). If Teshik couldn't respond, Pellaeon might have assumed him killed.

It would certainly be in character, but unfortunately nothing – not even a loss of communications from Eleemosynary – changes the fact that Pellaeon disrupted by the chain of command and ordered an unlawful retreat by bypassing every CO present, including Admiral Harrsk. The fact that he remained in command of Chimaera afterward probably means that the entire fiasco was brushed under the table, very likely because of the cowardly misconduct of Grand Admirals Takel and Makati. Even if he overstepped his bounds by a gross margin, Pellaeon at least was attempting to preserve Imperial forces; the two grand admirals cravenly fled the battle site without making even a perfunctory effort at fighting, and probably should have been convicted of a capital offense by court-martial. Probably everyone who survived was given a blanket amnesty to avoid political embarrassment.

I don't know who Na'al is, but we have to reconcile this with RotJ, which shows that the vast majority of the Rebel fleet survived intact. Unless most of them took massive casualties or internal damage (which seems contradictory with their rapid acceleration towards the moon of Endor) a few Star Destroyers couldn't hope to make a dent in them.

Lieut. Voren Na'al is an aide to Maj. Arhul Hextrophon, the Executive Secretary and Master Historian, Alliance High Command, and author of the Report to the Provisional Council of the Alliance of Free Planets on the Aftermath of the Battle of Endor (this report is the notional document that corresponds to most of chapter 1 of The Truce at Bakura Sourcebook). Some of his analysis of the battle was mentioned by this author earlier in this thread; to wit, he writes:

Still, the victory was costly. Casualty estimates for Alliance starfighter pilots in the battle exceeded 20 percent; shipboard casualties nearly matched that total. OF the surviving Alliance vessels, nearly 75 percent of them needed extensive repairs before returning to duty. Ackbar's armada was now little more than a series of slow moving targets for an enemy that could conceivably regroup and press another attack at any time.

Estimating it would take roughly 20 to 48 hours for a sizeable Imperial force to regroup, repair thair various vessels and plan an assault, Ackbar ordered immediate repair and salvage operations. While the main Imperial fleet was scattered throughout the galaxy, even a token Imperial force – two or three Imperial Star Destroyers from the Endor fleet – could cause incredible damage to the vulnerable Alliance vessels. Hopefully, the fleet would be ready for any Imperial counter-attack, or at the least, be prepared for a full retreat.

Na'al's various appearances throughout the Expanded Universe have long established that he is quite good at obtaining interviews with prominent figures; he frequently cites personal, one-on-one interviews with such individuals as Mon Mothma, the Princess Leia of Alderaan, Han Solo, and Luke Skywalker, and in this case he is probably drawing from personal discussions with Ackbar himself or else others on his staff as to his concerns of an Imperial counterattack (notably, as you say, hindsight is 20/20 – Ackbar's concerns about his fleet's vulnerability could easily skew the issue of the encounter, since he was inclined to withdraw rather than engage).

]This is the Clone Wars comic, correct? I would still maintain that that was one of Pellaeon's relatives, perhaps his father, rather than Pellaeon himself. If it was him, then he would not only had to have been demoted in the interim period (which, admittedly, is a possibility), been about thirty or so at the time, which he does not look, and not have aged physically at all in three decades. I'm not seeing it.

"Bloodlines" (Republic No. 64) is indeed set during the Clone War, as you say. However, Pellaeon's physical appearance appears to be subject to Cerasi's Foggy Window, because the same comic does not portray any difference in appearance on Supreme Chancellor Palpatine's part from within the first six months of his first term (in 3 GR), and at the height of the Clone War ten years later (in 14 GR), despite the known canonical differences in his appearance as seen in The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones; indeed, his (chronological) first appearance in the story as Senator Palpatine portrays him as having been significantly older than he actually was when he first assumed office, and in the decades between that time and Master Jedi Ronhar Kim's death on Merson thirty years later, Kim is barely seen to have aged.

Furthermore, Pellaeon is said to have had over 50 years of Naval experience by the time of Thrawn's War in 44 GR, which means that he must have first entered the Naval service some time around 6 BrS, as noted earlier. Consequently, by the time of the Battle of Merson, Pellaeon would have been a 20-year veteran, and it is not difficult to believe that he could have attained post captaincy by then. A demotion from the rank would certainly be reasonable, seeing that he not only abandoned an army to its fate on the surface, but that the commanding general happened to have been a close friend of the Commander in Chief, Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. Certainly it reflects better on him professionally if he were a 50-year XO at Endor because of a political blacklisting rather than because of general incompetence.

It should also be pointed out that not all humans age quite so visibly in Star Wars. Mace Windu estimated that he was about 10 years or so younger than the sexagenarian Supreme Chancellor Palpatine in Shatterpoint, while the relatively youthful-looking Senator Mon Mothma (Chandrila) almost-seen in Revenge of the Sith had in fact been a Senator for close to twenty years, having opposed Palpatine's election as Supreme Chancellor in 3 GR, and Senator Bail Prestor Organa (Alderaan) looked remarkably young for a man who had been a seasoned veteran of the Senate when Mothma first entered its ranks.

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

Firstly, not to appear uneducated in later posts, what is Cerasi's Foggy Window? Secondly, Would the fact that Leia Organna becoming a senator at such an early age (17 standard years) be an explination for the fact that some senators in AotC and RotS appear to be very young? And thirdly, would Senator/Supreme Chancellor Palpatine's differing appearance from TPM and AotC (and other appearances) be attributed to his use of the Dark Side?

[Vaporous]

Captain Pellaeon disrupted the chain of command and illegally assumed authority that did not belong to him, ordering a retreat to a location two days away from the battle site. In the process he effectively eliminated any chance at a timely counterattack, and abandoned one of the Empire's finest fleet commanders to capture and eventual execution as a war criminal by the enemy. It is 'entirely understandable' in the sense that his action was clearly the result of mindless panic.

Furthermore, the fact that Grand Admiral Teshik managed to continue to fight for some three hours after Pellaeon's craven abandonment demonstrates quite handily that the situation was not as desperate as Pellaeon thought it was. In fact, according to Na'al's analysis of the situation after the battle, the rebel fleet had suffered considerable casualties, and there were concerns that even one or two Star Destroyers in a counterattack could cause serious harm to the fleet.

Recall that this is the same man who has a consistent record of fleeing. In "Bloodlines" he unilaterally declared his position untenable and retreated, abandoning an entire army on the surface of Merson and getting their commanding general, Master Jedi Ronhar Kim, killed. In The Last Command he spontaneously concluded that the situation at Bilbringi was also untenable, and ordered an immediate withdrawal after Thrawn's death, making not even the slightest chance to salvage the situation and simply abandoning one of the Empire's shipyards to the New Republic.

Your point is made, but I maintain that, in the panic and loss of cohesion, Pelleaons action is still one that can be understood under the circumstances. The fact remains that the chain of command was dead. While his desicion is militarily suspect, it is far from criminal. Without a command chain, he decided to save what could be saved. It obviously appeared desperate enough to the men who fled with him.

I have never read Bloodlines, so I can not comment without asking for specifics of the situation. As for The Last Command, there is no reason to belive they could have done anything but delay the inevetable.

Grand Admiral Thrawn also never entrusted Pellaeon with any significant, independent responsibility, and in fact kept him close at hand where he could always keep a glowing red eye on him. Notably, Pellaeon was not advanced to flag rank and was not made a task force commander, but was rather kept on a tight leash as flag captain and captain of the fleet, where he was never fully in charge of anything.

A good point. We can not judge Thrawns reasons for doing this, however. And the lack pf promotion means little, as Thrawn over saw virtually everything himself as a matter of course.

Considering that Thrawn's War took place in 44 GR, an officer with Pellaeon's experience must have entered Naval service some time around 6 BrS, several years before the Naboo Crisis that precipitated Supreme Chancellor Palpatine's election in The Phantom Menace. Given that he lied about his age to enter the Academy, he must have been in his mid-to-late sixties during Thrawn's War, which would have made him in his late fifties or early sixties at the Battle of Endor in 39 GR.

The intarweb tells me:

At the age of fifteen, Pellaeon lied about his age to enter the Raithal Academy. After graduating, he entered service in the Judicial Department Starfleet and was considered one of its most promising officers. After brilliantly stopping a pirate raid at Gavryn, Pellaeon quickly rose through the ranks. As early as 27 BBY, he was apparently highly-placed enough to have heard rumours of Outbound Flight and the disappearance of Jorus C'baoth, and around the same time, he seems to have fought against mentally-unstable fast-grown clones in campaigns that could be considered as the first of the Clone Wars.

Pell was born 22 years before GR and Endor was 39 years after GR, thusly he was 61 at Endor, and I was wrong.

Would this be the same Imperial officer corps that advanced Soontir Fel to post captaincy and command of a heavy cruiser a bare handful of years after graduation from the Military Academy at Carida? Or perhaps the same officer corps that found Maarek Stele a post captain after less than a year in service? The same officer corps that did not so much as bat an eye at the summary execution of Kendal Ozzel for incompetence? Perhaps even the same officer corps that saw Thrawn rise from the rank of post captain to the rank of grand admiral in less than four years?

I don't know much about Fel, aside from his being the premeire pilot in the galaxy. I recall reading something about one of his success coinciding with Yavin, making his ascension a convenient propaganda ploy. And I've never heard of Stele at all. As for Ozzel and Thrawn, that bears no examination. Ozzel was killed by Vader. Who was there to complain to? Eye bating is a nice way to be suffocated because the man in the Iron Mask is in a bad mood. As for Thrawn, he was the Emperors favorite, and his Admiralcy was virtually assured from the get go.

If you do not consider fighting for three hours against the massed fleet of the entire rebel Alliance to be useful, then perhaps you would be so kind as to explain what would have been useful? Perhaps headlong flight to a regrouping point two days away, there to dither about uselessly instead of planning a counterattack?

If Teshik did not take command, then perhaps you would be so kind as to explain how he ended up in command of Eleemosynary? What makes you think that the capture and execution of one of the Empire's best and greatest fleet commanders is 'good riddance'?

Perhaps had the kind admiral left with them, and assumed command of a stablized fleet, he could have averted the collapse, and maybe Pelleaons court martial, if he felt it so neccessary to remain. Instead, he did what others had done on their own. Made a useless last stand. His death was his own fault. There was no advantage to be gained by staying.

[Fire Fly]

I don't know much about Fel, aside from his being the premeire pilot in the galaxy. I recall reading something about one of his success coinciding with Yavin, making his ascension a convenient propaganda ploy. And I've never heard of Stele at all. As for Ozzel and Thrawn, that bears no examination. Ozzel was killed by Vader. Who was there to complain to? Eye bating is a nice way to be suffocated because the man in the Iron Mask is in a bad mood. As for Thrawn, he was the Emperors favorite, and his Admiralcy was virtually assured from the get go.

Favorite or not, many of the grand admirals did attain their rank through merit and Thrawn himself only attained the rank of Grand Admiral by defeating another grand admiral himself: Zaarin.

The bottom line is, a supposed Grand Admiral Thrawn versus a supposed Grand Admiral Pellaeon is rather one sided, seeing as the rank of Grand Admiral can only be crowned by the Emperor himself upon those who have earned it through merit, loyalty, and rigor. The rank Pellaeon was laureled with was merely ceromonial, as a university would hand out honorary doctorships, lacking the qualities which defines a grand admiral: creativity, a ruthless resolve, and supreme leadership. Pellaeon lacks many of these qualities, as demonstrated by his history.

Pellaeon is a very able beaurocrat, but a leader he is not. Only by his later years has he finally grown a backbone, thus, making him only competant in my book.

[Stark]

Perhaps had the kind admiral left with them, and assumed command of a stablized fleet, he could have averted the collapse, and maybe Pelleaons court martial, if he felt it so neccessary to remain. Instead, he did what others had done on their own. Made a useless last stand. His death was his own fault. There was no advantage to be gained by staying.

This is hilarious. The rebel fleet was so disorganised and battered it took them THREE HOURS to disable a single moderately soiled Star Destroyer. The odds must have been really impossible for more than a dozen!

Of course, you ignore the other aspects of P.s stupidity, such as calling a retreat to miles away so that no immediate counterattack would be possible, abandoning the potentially tens or hundreds of thousands of personell in DS lifeboats, the Endor surface, TIEs etc and his impersonation of a superior officer. I said it in my earlier post - the measure of a man comes in a crisis, and P.s reaction we see most is to run away. There's a medical name for this condition - cowardice. The fact he disrupted the chain of command and broke military law makes him a criminal. Case closed.

[Lazarus]

As has been already stated, Pellaeon was a by the book kind of officer. It therefore makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that he would take it upon himself, knowing there were many other officers above him, to order the retreat of the fleet if there was still a chance that victory could be achieved. He certainly would not have contradicted a Grand Admiral, so surely therefore the Eleemosynary would have lost communications.
Why then did he overrule other officers such as Admiral Harrsk? We know from the Warlord Harrsk became that if an XO ordered him to retreat, he's tell them where to shove it, BUT if an XO, believing perhaps through the confusion from the sudden end to the battle meditation he was in command, ordered the fleet to retreat, Harrsk might know how the Emperors death would damage the Empire irrepairably, and so he should seek to save what he could and bring it under his control. Therefore, perhaps Pellaeon DID order the retreat, hoping to save many thousands of lives, but then his order may have been confirmed by Harrsk. Just a theory.
And I agree qith Vaporous, the entire Teshik character is poorly imagined and realised, with little attention to the details which the character tramples on. By staying, he could do no good, and he obviously either didn't or couldn't make himself known, so under the circumstances no charge can be brought against Pellaeon for specifically overiding a Grand Admiral evreyone outside the Eleemosynary thought was dead. The whole 'took three hours to disable his ship' is completely ridiculous, we have seen it takes at the most half an hour for such a ship to be subdued by such an opposition (Battle of Coruscant, Wedge's Gamble), UNLESS the vessel was away from the battle area, and limited forces could be brought against it.
Pellaeon would not have ordered the abondonment of hope of the Rebellions destruction, and all those on the surface or in disabled ships and escape pods if there was even a slim chance of victory, and saying 'well he did so he's a coward' is just crap. Come on, he's an Imperial Navy officer with decades of experience, do you seriously think he is so incompetent he gave an order even an 8 year old would know is wrong?
Concerning the distance which he supposedly gave the order to retreat to, if indeed Harrsk did confirm the order, and then ordered the retreat to this remote system, it would work in his favour, for then he could run for it back to his base sector and set up his dominion, long after the battle had ended.
Stark, you suggest that attempting to save the lives of thousands on board the Imperial ships is cowardice? I call it heroism, any other commander might have ordered them to fight on and be destroyed, meaning they couldn't help the people on the surface anyway, at least if he retreated they could come back for them, or attempt a rescue later. I have seen evidence of two battles he has retreated from, Bilbringi and Endor, both of which would probably not have been victories even if he had stayed (I have seen no evidence to suggest this clone wars Pellaeon is the Endor Pellaeon, and not simply another Pellaeon). There is no evidence for his impersonation of a superior officer, all we know is that he ordered the retreat, the other officers clearly agreed with him, except for Teshik, who was clearly an idiot for staying when everyone else left. He retained command of the Chimaera, eventually becoming the Flag Captain for the Supreme Commander of Imperial forces, and then the Supreme Commander himself. Do you really think this would have occurred if he was a coward? Even a cursory look at this shows you that this cannot have been the case.
How can we dismiss certain parts of the evidence and not others? 'The Pellaeon in the comics looks old because the artist screwed up drawing him, so we'll ignore that' and 'You can't dismiss anything about Teshik whatsoever, not even the ridiculous 3 hour figure, which common sense shows contradicts the information from the truce at Bakura sourcebook'. You can't just take the bits you like.
Oh yeah, and Thrawn means twisted in Gaelic.

[Lazarus]

Double post, sorry.

[Sharp-kun]

his impersonation of a superior officer.

Proof of this? The fact that the fleet obeyed is not such.

[Spetulhu]

And I agree qith Vaporous, the entire Teshik character is poorly imagined and realised, with little attention to the details which the character tramples on. By staying, he could do no good,

and you might also consider that two out of three Grand Admirals thought discretion the better part of valor. The one that stayed must have been mistaken, or perhaps stuck in some fashion.

[Tiriol]

And I agree qith Vaporous, the entire Teshik character is poorly imagined and realised, with little attention to the details which the character tramples on. By staying, he could do no good,

and you might also consider that two out of three Grand Admirals thought discretion the better part of valor. The one that stayed must have been mistaken, or perhaps stuck in some fashion.

Is there any information about the situation of Grand Admiral Teshik's ship when Pellaeon gave the retreat order? If he did not assert his authority then he was either a) an utter moron (highly unlikely, considering that he was a Grand Admiral); b) incapable of communicating with the rest of the fleet (his communication systems were down or something like that); or c) he just thought that no one would follow the order.

Personally I like Lazarus's theory about the whole Endor fiasco.

[Stark]

his impersonation of a superior officer.

Proof of this? The fact that the fleet obeyed is not such.

Keep asking that, son.

Harrsk retreated with the fleet, then said 'no way I'm taking orders from you P'... what does that suggest to you? That he didn't know the order came from a worthless career XO instead of the ranking Commodore? Surely not, because then you wouldn't have a leg to stand on with your hilarious 'zomg maybe he just sent a 'gee maybe we should retreat guys' message and everyone agreed in an outburst of democracy in action' theory.

Anyone got any ideas why the Dark Force Critical Fumble scared everyone so much, but Teshiks ship was able to fight for so long? Were they ultra-strong willed? Were they immune to the Force? Were they Vong infiltrators? Or did they just have a commander with a clue, and an enemy who was weakened and concerned about capture?

[Lex]

-snip- Were they Vong infiltrators?

give EU a year or two and we'll have it alike

[Lazarus]

Keep asking that, son.

It ISN'T proof! The fact that the fleet obeyed his order in no way proves that he impersonated a superior officer!!! How can you possibly think it does?

Where does it state that after the fleet got to the rally point, Harrsk said he wasn't taking order from Pellaeon anymore because he had now realised he wasn't the commodore? Nowhere, its just supposition. All we know is Harrsk was at Endor, and at some point fled to create his own dominion, whether that was during the battle or in the chaos after.
Our theory has just as much evidence behind it as yours does, in that there is NOTHING definitive for either, both are based on hypotheses. Give me real evidence that Pellaeon deliberately impersonated his CO in order to get the Imperial fleet to withdraw, then fair enough, but I'm guessing all you have are, in your opinion, 'likelihoods' based on your interpretation of what little evidence you have, and your conviction of Pellaeons supposed cowardice, when throughout the literature, especially in series's like the NJO, his character and others reaction to him show he is far from a coward.

[Stark]

I'm sorry, I thought Publius supplied a quote.

The Essential Chronology states that it was only after regrouping at Annaj that Harrsk was "unwilling to take orders from Pellaeon, a mere captain," which probably indicates that he did not realize it was Pellaeon and not his CO who had issued the order to retreat.

Whoops. Looks like Harrsk jumped to the rally point as ordered, then refused to take orders from P *as he wasn't in charge*. What's YOUR hilarious interpretation of this? Or didn't you bother reading Publius' big, scary post?

Clearly, P. either sent a message from Chimera without disclosing the death of the ranking officer - which is negligent - or he took the Commodores' code cylinders and sent a message signed by him. This, of course, is also illegal. In both cases the intent was obviously to appear that the order originated with the ranking officer in theatre, which it didn't. It originated with him, and regardless of how he contrived it, he was impersonating the Commodore. Since he has a history (and at this point a future) of running away, this isn't out of character for him at all.

[Plushie]

ARMCHAIR ADMIRALS AHOY!

What everyone here is so willfully ignoring (though I'm not surprised, stubbornness is common on the net) is the issue of morale. I'll admit that Pellaeon isn't a very charismatic commander, that's actually kind of a given. The thing is, every Imperial in that fleet just saw pretty much the entirty of Imperial High Command wiped out with the destruction of the Death Star and the Executor. The mission objectives were complete failures, the Emperor was dead. They were losing a battle to a blandly inferior enemy.

Whether they had the technical ability to win the battle is irrelevent. The fact that the best and the brightest of the Imperial Fleet were (at least thought) dead, THE MOTHERFUCKING EMPEROR WAS GONE, and the additional whammy of the loss of both the Emperor's and that one Grand Admiral's battle meditation completely throwing out unit cohesion shows that Pellaeon's move, while not the absolute best move one could take, was at the very least a prudent move. The Rebels had already pulled off the impossible. Tactically, they had the Imperials fooled every which way. Better to save the fleet than to (in Pellaeon's and most likely many other commanders' eyes) lose it.

[Plushie]

Oh, forgot this:

The Grand Admiral who stayed behind was obviously charismatic to revive the in-the-pits morale of the crew under his direct command but, either because he was stupid (unlikely) or because of comms trouble, he was unable to rally the rest of the fleet.

[consequences]

Do we know anything about the Imperial supply situation during the battle? It would be in character for Palpy's mismanagement of the entire affair to have hid the fleet without allowing them to reprovision, while certain individual ships might be in much better shape than the fleet as a whole.

[Publius]

Firstly, not to appear uneducated in later posts, what is Cerasi's Foggy Window?

'Cerasi's Foggy Window' refers to the continuity policy explained by Mr. Chris Cerasi, of LucasBooks, who described "every piece of published Star Wars fiction" as "a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe" (as defined by the films themselves, which he called "absolute canon"), noting that "some windows are a bit foggier than others," but "each contains a nugget of truth to them." Tellingly, one of the examples he offered was that "not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way."

Your point is made, but I maintain that, in the panic and loss of cohesion, Pelleaons action is still one that can be understood under the circumstances. The fact remains that the chain of command was dead. While his desicion is militarily suspect, it is far from criminal. Without a command chain, he decided to save what could be saved. It obviously appeared desperate enough to the men who fled with him.

According to Grand Admiral Thrawn, six Star Destroyers were lost at Endor. At least three of these were lost before Executor was destroyed – viz., the Star Destroyer destroyed by collision with a Calamarian cruiser in the novelization, the Star Destroyer destroyed by turbolaserfire starboard of Executor in the film (tentatively identified as Devastator), and the main communications ship – and even if Thrawn did not count Executor and the two captured Star Destroyers (Accuser and Adjudicator, that leaves only two Star Destroyers to have been lost before Pellaeon called the retreat (since the sixth obviously must have been Eleemosynary, disabled by ion cannonfire after the retreat was called).

Yes, the Emperor's death and the abrupt breaking off of Grand Admiral Declann's battle meditation had deleterious effects on the Imperials' morale and 'fighting spirit.' Yes, the three main communications nodes – the main communications ship, Executor, and the Death Star itself – had been destroyed. Yes, the Imperial forces were dispirited and confused. This is not in dispute. Nor is there any reasonable dispute that Pellaeon simply did not have the authority to order a retreat, and that in so doing he abandoned a grand admiral to the enemy, making possible his trial, conviction, and execution for war crimes.

I have never read Bloodlines, so I can not comment without asking for specifics of the situation. As for The Last Command, there is no reason to belive they could have done anything but delay the inevetable.

In "Bloodlines," Master Jedi Ronhar Kim, a close personal friend of Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, suggested that perhaps they should test the members of the Senate in order to conclusively disprove Darth Tyranus's claim that a Sith Lord had taken control of the Senate; Kim's Padawan Apprentice suggested that the measure would be accepted by the Senate if Palpatine would volunteer to be the first tested in a show of good faith. Before the plan could be discussed any further, Kim was sent to command a clone army detachment sent to Merson, where it was ambushed by Confederate forces:

KIM: Captain Pellaeon, this is General Kim. Our situation planetside has gotten desperate. Is there any chance of assistance from the fleet?

PELLAEON: I'm sorry, General, but you're on your own! The enemy is here in force! My own position is untenable – and I'm ordering an immediate recall and withdrawal!

TAP-NAR-PAL: Captain, you can't do that! You withdraw now and those troops on the ground will be slaughtered. I'm ordering you to stay!

PELLAEON: You don't give me orders, Tap-Nar-Pal! This battle fleet is under my command! Anything I do to help you will only get my ships destroyed, as well! We're pulling out!

As for 'delaying the inevitable' at Bilbringi, that would, in fact, have been a good thing. Pellaeon's order to retreat immediately meant that the New Republic captured the Bilbringi Shipyards intact, that the planet and shipyards were not evacuated, that time was not given for sensitive materials to be destroyed, for equipment to be scuttled or dismantled or sabotaged. Pellaeon didn't even try to salvage the situation; he made no effort at all to fight the battle. No sooner had Thrawn stopped breathing than had Pellaeon ordered a retreat, without the slightest modicum of effort at fighting a holding action to give time for evacuation.

I don't know much about Fel, aside from his being the premeire pilot in the galaxy. I recall reading something about one of his success coinciding with Yavin, making his ascension a convenient propaganda ploy. And I've never heard of Stele at all. As for Ozzel and Thrawn, that bears no examination. Ozzel was killed by Vader. Who was there to complain to? Eye bating is a nice way to be suffocated because the man in the Iron Mask is in a bad mood. As for Thrawn, he was the Emperors favorite, and his Admiralcy was virtually assured from the get go.

Despite having graduated from the Imperial Academy the same year as Han Solo, Soontir Fel was a post captain and Commanding Officer, HIMS Pride of the Senate, a Dreadnaught heavy cruiser that participated in the attack on Nar Shaddaa in The Hutt Gambit about two years or so after they'd graduated. This was, in fact, several years before the Battle of Yavin, and he was actually demoted after that debacle as a scapegoat, and then subsequently worked his way back to post captain's rank and command of the 181st Imperial Fighter Group.

Tan Maarek Stele is the Empire's ace of aces, whose known kill count extends into the 100s at the very least, including over a dozen capital ships (corvettes, frigates, a Calamarian light cruiser, and a Victory Star Destroyer). Featured in TIE Fighter and its various add-ons, and TIE Fighter: The Official Strategy Guide, Tan Stele is the most highly decorated known officer in the Empire, having received twelve medals for valor and being the only canonically known recipient of the Emperor's Will (the highest award granted by the Imperial State).

Thrawn was indeed one of the Emperor's favorites, but that doesn't mean he didn't actually work his way up through the ranks. He was 'only' a post captain by 35 GR, as seen in Dark Forces: Soldier for the Empire and Galaxy of Fear: The Swarm, but had worked his way up to a vice admiral's flag only three years later in 38 GR, when he appeared in TIE Fighter, and managed to obtain promotions to admiral and then grand admiral over the course of a single year. Inquisitor Jerec even notices that Captain Thrawn had more decorations than most officers with twice as many years of service as he. Yes, Thrawn was one of the Emperor's favorites, but it is important to remember that one gets to be one of the Emperor's favorites by being a winner.

As has been already stated, Pellaeon was a by the book kind of officer. It therefore makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that he would take it upon himself, knowing there were many other officers above him, to order the retreat of the fleet if there was still a chance that victory could be achieved. He certainly would not have contradicted a Grand Admiral, so surely therefore the Eleemosynary would have lost communications.

Deliberate contradiction of Grand Admiral Teshik isn't necessary. He demonstrated at Merson and Bilbringi that his immediate impulse is to flee when confronted with a hostile situation, and Bilbringi was the second time he had ordered a retreat after the death of his commander; he has no stomach for pitched battle. He need not have intentionally superseded his authority; in the heat of the moment he may have simply ordered a retreat after seeing the unnamed CO killed, and only subsequently realized what he had done.

It is also worth pointing out that Chimaera was the auxiliary communications ship. It is equally possible that Teshik's countermanding of Chimaera's retreat call was simply lost because of the confusion on Chimaera's bridge. This information is not available. The only canonical knowledge about the event is as follows: Grand Admiral Teshik made his way to Eleemosynary and took command. Captain Pellaeon ordered a retreat after his CO was killed. Grand Admiral Teshik did not retreat, fought for three hours, and was captured. Coupled with the knowledge that Pellaeon knowingly abandoned an army on Merson, this does not paint him in a positive light.

Why then did he overrule other officers such as Admiral Harrsk? We know from the Warlord Harrsk became that if an XO ordered him to retreat, he's tell them where to shove it, BUT if an XO, believing perhaps through the confusion from the sudden end to the battle meditation he was in command, ordered the fleet to retreat, Harrsk might know how the Emperors death would damage the Empire irrepairably, and so he should seek to save what he could and bring it under his control. Therefore, perhaps Pellaeon DID order the retreat, hoping to save many thousands of lives, but then his order may have been confirmed by Harrsk. Just a theory.

According to The Essential Chronology, Harrsk refused to accept orders from Pellaeon at Annaj after the retreat had been called, and immediately abandoned the fleet and the Empire there, taking his own task force with him and heading to the outskirts of the Deep Core, where he established himself as an empereur en petit. This is hardly the act of a man who has confirmed an acting captain's order to retreat in order to take control of the fleet afterward. He made no attempt to assert his authority over Pellaeon; instead he rejected Pellaeon's leadership and defected immediately.

And I agree qith Vaporous, the entire Teshik character is poorly imagined and realised, with little attention to the details which the character tramples on. By staying, he could do no good, and he obviously either didn't or couldn't make himself known, so under the circumstances no charge can be brought against Pellaeon for specifically overiding a Grand Admiral evreyone outside the Eleemosynary thought was dead.

Even supposing that you were right and Teshik's presence was not known, that does not justify Pellaeon's behavior one whit – he still disregarded the chain of command and superseded Admiral Harrsk and every other CO present. There is simply no acceptable justification for his calling of the retreat; no amount of special pleading will change the fact that it was not his decision to make, and that he made a panicked decision that smacked of unprofessionalism and inexperience.

Was this decision made at a time when the fleet was suffering from severe panic and confusion due to the diffusion of the dark side caused by the Emperor's death? Yes. Was this decision made at a time made at a time when the fleet was disoriented and nauseated by the abrupt cancellation of Grand Admiral Declann's battle meditation? Yes. Was this decision made at a time when the fleet was suffering from degraded communications because of the destruction of the three main communications nodes? Yes. Does feeling sick and afraid excuse unprofessional behavior? Not in the slightest.

No one disputes that the fleet must have been confused and distraught; the Emperor was, after all, dead. Nevertheless, this is precisely why one trains and drills – so that even when faced with utter chaos, one still knows how to do one's job, and does it. It is foolish to expect the proper performance of duty only under optimal conditions. It is when the sky is alive with fire and the fog of war has set in that training and nerve are most needed, and it is then that we saw what kind of man Pellaeon is when push comes to shove: He is the kind of man who wants to run away and lick his wounds.

The whole 'took three hours to disable his ship' is completely ridiculous, we have seen it takes at the most half an hour for such a ship to be subdued by such an opposition (Battle of Coruscant, Wedge's Gamble), UNLESS the vessel was away from the battle area, and limited forces could be brought against it.

And yet the thought that Grand Admiral Thrawn is able to guess exactly what the Princess Leia and Chewbacca the Wookiee are doing based on how long they parked their starships in space is somehow 'less' ridiculous? The thought that a man can analyze what kind of paintings one likes and use this insight to outmaneuver one in space is 'less' ridiculous? Where, precisely, is the speed barrier between ridiculous and ludicrous?

Pellaeon would not have ordered the abondonment of hope of the Rebellions destruction, and all those on the surface or in disabled ships and escape pods if there was even a slim chance of victory, and saying 'well he did so he's a coward' is just crap. Come on, he's an Imperial Navy officer with decades of experience, do you seriously think he is so incompetent he gave an order even an 8 year old would know is wrong?

Evidently he did, so one is forced to answer 'yes.' Even experienced leaders can make blunders; history is full of examples of miscommunications, errors, and lapses in judgment that have made the difference between triumph and disaster. Even Thrawn blundered at Bilbringi, putting his forces into overly precise positions so that when a penetration of his formation actually happened, he couldn't respond without throwing his entire battle plan into disarray. Even genius is not proof against folly; how, then, can one expect mediocrity to be immune?

If he is such a well-qualified leader, why was he a superannuated executive officer in a Navy where men with bare fractions of his space time were his equals and superiors in rank?

Concerning the distance which he supposedly gave the order to retreat to, if indeed Harrsk did confirm the order, and then ordered the retreat to this remote system, it would work in his favour, for then he could run for it back to his base sector and set up his dominion, long after the battle had ended.

Harrsk set up his rogue state in the outskirts of the Deep Core, while Annaj is in the Outer Rim Territories. Although certainly a novel thought, your theory is overruled by the facts in evidence.

Stark, you suggest that attempting to save the lives of thousands on board the Imperial ships is cowardice? I call it heroism, any other commander might have ordered them to fight on and be destroyed, meaning they couldn't help the people on the surface anyway, at least if he retreated they could come back for them, or attempt a rescue later. I have seen evidence of two battles he has retreated from, Bilbringi and Endor, both of which would probably not have been victories even if he had stayed (I have seen no evidence to suggest this clone wars Pellaeon is the Endor Pellaeon, and not simply another Pellaeon).

Are you familiar with the concept of a holding action? Do you genuinely think that abandoning an entire shipyard intact to the enemy is good strategy? Do you genuinely believe that not giving Imperial citizens time to evacuate is patriotism? Do you genuinely believe that fleeing the battle site at the first sign of adversity is heroism?

Do you realize that even if one does not count the destruction of Executor, the capture of Accuser and Adjudicator, and disabling of Eleemosynary, only three Star Destroyers were lost at Endor from the time the tide turned against the Imperial fleet to the time Pellaeon ordered the retreat? Even supposing that those do not count, one still stretches the bounds of Thrawn's statement that six were lost during the battle. Pellaeon panicked, plainly and simply; whether under the influence of dark side exhaustion and confusion, or cowardice, or any other number of psychological motivations, the fact remains that he panicked and broke the chain of command.

Was he the most cowardly individual at the battle? Hardly, when one remembers that Grand Admirals Takel and Makati fled outright without even trying to take control of the situation, and probably could have been convicted by general court-martial of cowardice in the face of the enemy and shot. Does this validate Pellaeon's panicking? Not remotely. As said earlier, his act is perfectly understandable when taken in the context of an overly conservative officer panicking.

How can we dismiss certain parts of the evidence and not others? 'The Pellaeon in the comics looks old because the artist screwed up drawing him, so we'll ignore that' and 'You can't dismiss anything about Teshik whatsoever, not even the ridiculous 3 hour figure, which common sense shows contradicts the information from the truce at Bakura sourcebook'. You can't just take the bits you like.

When the artist draws Palpatine as of The Phantom Menace as looking no different from Palpatine in Attack of the Clones despite the known, canonical differences in his appearance between those times, it is not mere caprice to suspect that artist's interpretations of a character's appearance as being less than reliable. Do you have any compelling reason to believe that it is some other person named Captain Pellaeon with a penchant for retreat?

[The Original Nex]

Your point is made, but I maintain that, in the panic and loss of cohesion, Pelleaons action is still one that can be understood under the circumstances. The fact remains that the chain of command was dead.

Really? Admiral Harrsk was still around. He surely outranked Pellaeon, a mere XO. What about every commanding Captain of all the other Star Destroyers? Surely they were higher up the CoC than Pellaeon, an Postcaptian acting as the Chimaera's CO in the wake of his commanders death.

The Chain of Command wasn't dead, P. simply disregarded it.

While his desicion is militarily suspect, it is far from criminal.

It is if (as Stark mentioned above) Pellaeon intentionally impersonated his CO, who did have authority to order a retreat, it would have been absolutely illegal, and criminally negligent ig he simply sent the message without netifying the fleet of the CO's death.

Without a command chain, he decided to save what could be saved. It obviously appeared desperate enough to the men who fled with him.

Excapt that there was a CoC. Also there's the issue that the Imperial Fleet didn't need any saving. The Eleemosynary, although vastly outnumbered and outgunned held its own against the Rebel Fleet for 3 ours. Imagine if the entire fleet had stuck around, which it likely would have had Pellaeon not ordered a retreat.

The men who fled with him fled because they thought they were following orders from P's dead CO, no other reason.

[Shaidar Haran]

Paelleon has always struck me as Lt Bush to Thrawn's Hornblower. He's competent, experienced, and a good subordinate but on the other hand is limited in his initiative and not particularly inspired or inspiring. Gilad Paelleon may not share his fighting spirit but it really is hard to say.

Whoops. Looks like Harrsk jumped to the rally point as ordered, then refused to take orders from P *as he wasn't in charge*. What's YOUR hilarious interpretation of this? Or didn't you bother reading Publius' big, scary post?

You mean the same Harrsk who had half his face burnt off when his ship took major damage? I would sumbit to you that Harrsk was probably not in any position, with regards to his ship's condition or his personal health, to safely assume command in the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Endor. If Harssk is unfit for command at the time, and his condition could be judged as rendering him so, Paelleon would be with in his rights to retain command, if such would devolve to him.

Given that Paelleon's rank is equivalent to a post captain he may well be the next ranking officer, regardless of the peculiarity of him not being the commanding officer. He is a post captain, which would put him as the equal of any "mere" CO by pure rank; only a division commander would outrank him. Thus he could well be the legitimate senior officer. That of course assumes that all that matters is his rank and the date of seniority there of. I do not know enough of naval procedure to say.

The Grand Admiral who stayed behind was obviously charismatic to revive the in-the-pits morale of the crew under his direct command but, either because he was stupid (unlikely) or because of comms trouble, he was unable to rally the rest of the fleet.

Given the loss of the fleet flagship, the communication ship, and quite probably severe damage to the task force flags and division leaders, it seems quite likely that Grand Admiral Teshik was severly hampered by the loss and damage of major links in the chain of command. Even worse is the fact that the Grand Admiral was outside the chain of command himself and thus probably having serious difficulty establishing his bona fides.

What about every commanding Captain of all the other Star Destroyers? Surely they were higher up the CoC than Pellaeon, an Postcaptian acting as the Chimaera's CO in the wake of his commanders death.

Imperial Ranks

Paelleon would be a Captain, period. Publius is using the older british term to distinguish from a captain (as in commanding a vessel) who was by rank merely a Commander. And I suspect to further distinguish from a Commodore, lower half, who was by rank a Captain but given a Commodore's authority, while still retaining the responsibility of command of "his" ship. The Star Wars equivalent of that has apparently become a formalized rank of Line Captain.

As a "Post" Captain Paelleon would probably hold the same rank as most of the other Captains. It is not a junior rank by any means.

[The Original Nex]

Paelleon would be a Captain, period. Publius is using the older british term to distinguish from a captain (as in commanding a vessel) who was by rank merely a Commander. And I suspect to further distinguish from a Commodore, lower half, who was by rank a Captain but given a Commodore's authority, while still retaining the responsibility of command of "his" ship. The Star Wars equivalent of that has apparently become a formalized rank of Line Captain.

As a "Post" Captain Paelleon would probably hold the same rank as most of the other Captains. It is not a junior rank by any means.

Yes I realize that, but he was an XO vaulted into command of the Chimaera after his higher ranking commander (some rank of Admiral) was killed. I may be mistaken, but wouldn't the fact that his other Captain colleagues in commanding roles, not executive roles, have more authority that Pellaeon, who was first an XO?

[Shaidar Haran]

Yes I realize that, but he was an XO vaulted into command of the Chimaera after his higher ranking commander (some rank of Admiral) was killed. I may be mistaken, but wouldn't the fact that his other Captain colleagues in commanding roles, not executive roles, have more authority that Pellaeon, who was first an XO?

Which raises the question, which I don't know enough of either of the fictional Empire or real life Navies to answer for sure. I suspect Imperial procedure, if it exists for such a situation, probably prefers simple rank and seniority with out prejudice to ship command. The fact that Paelleon expected to retain command at Annaj, understanding that Harssk was likely medically disqualified, lends a certain amount of credence to this. As is the fact that he retained command of the Chimaera afterwards.

PS: Paelleon's superior would have to be a Line Captain (and that equivalent to a Commodre, lower half) in order for the arrangement to make sense. Admirals and lesser flag officers do not retain personal command of their flagship. A Line Captain would probably be in between, thus the retention of command yet superiority to Paelleon. Most likely Paelleon's superior was a divsion commander, below an Admiral but above ordinary Captains. He would probably be in charge of one or two ISDs beyond Chimaera herself, though not in direct command.

[Publius]

Given that Paelleon's rank is equivalent to a post captain he may well be the next ranking officer, regardless of the peculiarity of him not being the commanding officer. He is a post captain, which would put him as the equal of any "mere" CO by pure rank; only a division commander would outrank him. Thus he could well be the legitimate senior officer. That of course assumes that all that matters is his rank and the date of seniority there of. I do not know enough of naval procedure to say.

In the event of the death or incapacity of the fleet commander in battle, command devolves provisionally upon the officer next in rank aboard the flagship, until such time as the actual successor to command is able to take command (that being the senior line officer eligible for command at space within the fleet or fleet subdivision). Pellaeon, being a late returnee to the rank of post captain, would not take command until every one of his seniors – including all flag officers and senior captains – were killed or incapacitated.

Incidentally, the evidence of the Dark Force Rising Sourcebook does indicate that Pellaeon did at least announce the death of his CO, as required by regulation; Captain Dorja, one of Pellaeon's many seniors, "almost refused to follow Captain Pellaeon when the junior officer announced that he was now in command of the Chimaera and was taking command of the fleet," but did not do so at that time because "he could not disagree with Pellaeon's evaluation of the situation and orders to retreat." This is somewhat backhanded exculpatory evidence, however, since it conclusively demonstrates that he deliberately and knowingly usurped command, and that he got away with it because of the critically low morale in the fleet (apparently the diffusion of the dark side and the negative side-effects of battle meditation had so demoralized the fleet that at least some officers knowingly accepted orders from a junior in their haste to retreat).

This brings up an interesting point – it is entirely possible that many of Pellaeon's seniors already wanted to retreat but – in Stalinist fashion – nobody wanted to be the first to 'stop clapping,' as it were, and accepted Pellaeon's orders because it gave them the excuse that "someone else ordered the retreat," and they could later blame it on the fog of war. Furthermore, the failures in communication may have meant that some commanders did not realize that Pellaeon had succeeded, and may have still believed that his CO was in command, not having received the notification that Pellaeon had taken command of Chimaera. In any case, as this author has noted earlier, it is quite possible that none of the officers at the battle were subjected to much scrutiny, as the Imperial State had obviously decided to overlook the outright cowardice in the face of the enemy displayed by two of its most senior flag officers, Grand Admirals Takel and Makati (both of whom, as hitherto noted, could have been brought before a general court-martial and shot, were it not for political considerations).

The Dark Force Rising Sourcebook does exculpate Pellaeon from impersonating a senior (the author apologizes for not having consulted this source sooner). He may not have realized that he was usurping command, given the confusion on Chimaera's bridge and concerns about whatever damage Harrsk's flagship may have sustained. This does not, however, mean that he did not break the chain of command; the evidence simply shows upon further review that his act was not as seriously insubordinate as first believed. Nor does it validate his order to retreat in and of itself; the situation was not as desperate as it had appeared, with Executor and six other Star Destroyers being lost (three of which were lost before Executor was even destroyed), and the rebel fleet being so disorganized and exhausted that Teshik was able to run amok for three hours after he was abandoned by the rest of the fleet (it is possible that the rebel fleet was also affected by the diffusion of the dark side caused by the Emperor's death).

[Stark]

Sorry, his rank is less important than his position. As an XO, he's outranked by every single other captain of every single other ship in the fight. He has a subordinate role, not a command role.

[Noble Ire]

Sorry, his rank is less important than his position. As an XO, he's outranked by every single other captain of every single other ship in the fight. He has a subordinate role, not a command role.

No one is arguing that he did not break the chain of command; in that sense, he did break the law. However, the circumstances and motives behind the infraction mitigate the incident, at least to some extent.