Cheap Boss Syndrome

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2006-01-29 01:00pm

This mainly relates to fighting games, but I'm sure there are other fine examples in other genres, and I'm sure someone will bring them up.

But why, for the lofe of all that is good in the world, do fighting game bosses have to be, rather than a decent expression of a difficult fight, a cheap motherfucker. So cheap, in fact, that they probably got all their moves at Poundstretcher.

The latest and undoubtedly worst for this is Alpha 152, from Dead or Alive 4. The wee bitch takes off 2/3 of your health with every combo or throw, is utterly impossible to throw herself, as she always pre-empts it, and can air and wall juggle you from full health to near death, and teleport herself at will around the area. And worse, the only way to reliably beat her is to spam punch combos, the most basic move you can, because everything else is too slow and she'll rape you for it.

And it's not like it isn't possible to just make one foe that little bit more difficult. Night Terror in Soul Calibur III feels like a really hard opponent, not a cheap little goatfelcher. Even Olcadan, the super-hidden one-shot opponent feels like a normal, albeit extremely difficult, battle, even with damage carrying over from the previous not-at-all easy fight.

Seriously, any boss fight that makes you want to find the designer and repeatedly stamp on their face needs rethinking before release.

Netko · Post by **Netko** » 2006-01-29 01:28pm

I got that feeling in the boss fights in the second of the new Prince games. All your good and cool moves are worth shit since they are blocked so you are forced into a careful block-small hit-maybe large hit-block-repeat routine which makes the fights more tedious then fun. Dissapointing in a game that otherwise has some really nice attack moves.

The worst part of it is the artificial programmatic feel of the fights. I mean, if the enemy is such a bad motherfucker that nothing but that single fast move works against him, then he should rape my fictional characters ass and not succumb to the death of a thousand cuts. That is just lame.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2006-01-29 06:16pm

Yeah, Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force had that feel. The boss basicly had an array of one-hit-kill moves that he used over and over, and you were magically given 999 ammo on all your weapons just before the battle and have to unload every one into his head to kill him.

Then there's the exact opposite. Like the final boss on Gunstar Super Heroes. The last stage makes you go through four boss fights- on Normal difficulty, I got utterly wailed on and made it past the fourth boss with 9 health left (having started with 150).

I got to the final boss, thinking, oh crap, I'm dead.

I beat him with about 2 health left, after getting hit about twenty times. One of the most pathetic and disappointing last bosses in history. The second to last boss, Seven Force, is awesome, however.

Post by **weemadando** » 2006-01-29 06:46pm

Cheap bosses from fighting games:

Jinpachi (Tekken 5) - UNBLOCKABLE VAMPIRE RANGED ATTACK? FUCK OFF!

Omega (DoA3) - So I'm playing as Bayman and I can't counter/throw the boss. Yeah, that's fair.

T-Rex (Ballz) - What the HELL?

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-01-29 06:51pm

The boss from Bushido Blade 2, on the original Playstation. Everytime your sword is about to land on him, he teleports halfway across the floor. Fucken ...

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2006-01-29 07:05pm

Metal Sonic, Sonic the Fighters. Fuck you and your unblockable claw that does 2/3 damage.

Dahaka, Warrior Within. Bastard regenerates half his life bar everytime he recovers from Kaileena's sandblast.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-01-29 07:36pm

Goose? Geese? The Final Fight guy. Fuck on a bike, he was a cheesy, cheesy bastard. There is no escaping his pantaloons of DOOM.

StimNeuro · Post by **StimNeuro** » 2006-01-29 07:56pm

weemadando wrote:Cheap bosses from fighting games:

Jinpachi (Tekken 5) - UNBLOCKABLE VAMPIRE RANGED ATTACK? FUCK OFF!

Omega (DoA3) - So I'm playing as Bayman and I can't counter/throw the boss. Yeah, that's fair.

T-Rex (Ballz) - What the HELL?

T-Rex was easy. Jump on his back and kill him. Of course, I played as Divine and the Monkey guy most of the time, so there is that. The Jester, though, he's just plain evil.

felineki · Post by **felineki** » 2006-01-29 07:58pm

Street Fighter 3's Gill. "RESURRECTION!!!1" "RESURRECTION!!!1" "RESURRECTION!!!1" ad infinitum.

Once you've been K.O.ed, the round is supposed to be OVER, you bastard! Learn to play by the rules.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2006-01-30 02:00pm

weemadando wrote:Omega (DoA3) - So I'm playing as Bayman and I can't counter/throw the boss. Yeah, that's fair.

Seriously, Genra ain't got shit on Alpha-152. He (like Tengu) was easy to beat if you just blocked his ranged spam attack because his actual attacks were pissy. Alpha can destroy you in one or two combos. It took me half a fucking hour to beat it with Kokoro (And I've done all of Time Attack in 7:30 with Spartan-458, which just shows how much you need the "right" character to beat it).

President Sharky · Post by **President Sharky** » 2006-01-30 02:09pm

Sagat from Street Fighter 2 for SNES. All he would do was constant "Tiger! Tiger!" and "Tiger Uppercut!". The very definition of a cheap fighting game boss.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-01-30 02:13pm

Several bosses in FR: Demonstone were cheap, if not necessarily uber-hard. The pattern of 'duke it out, retreat to place where, mysteriously, ranged attacks don't work, and send minions while he regains health' was tiresome, especially with the dragon.

Of course, the cheapest boss ever will forever be Kingdom of Loathing's Naughty Sorceress, who neuters your skills and items, and you have to carry a puny, weak weapon to actually beat her.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-01-30 02:16pm

Praxis wrote:Yeah, Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force had that feel. The boss basicly had an array of one-hit-kill moves that he used over and over, and you were magically given 999 ammo on all your weapons just before the battle and have to unload every one into his head to kill him.

And whats bad is you don't really know how your supposed to take him down. Not sure if he has to be attacked in a particular area or not. But no, the way you kill him is to pound the fuck out of him with every heavy weapon you have.

First I emptied every photon torpedo (super charged blast) I could into him. Next was the wonderful arc welder gun. Then I started firing the heavy phaser blasts at the guy. After that I was going to wip out that weird Etherian gun. But after almost exhausting my rifle ammo, he finaly dies.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-01-30 02:56pm

Mine is CvS2 Shin Akuma.

Motherfucker can kill you in one combo, can counter all the dumbest of simple moves, and ranges from slow turtle in reaction to "I have precognition...fuck off chimp."

The only other was the final of Samurai 3. Killed in one hit. Not even full rage...fucker went swipe, and you're dead.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2006-01-30 10:52pm

Alyeska wrote:
Praxis wrote:Yeah, Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force had that feel. The boss basicly had an array of one-hit-kill moves that he used over and over, and you were magically given 999 ammo on all your weapons just before the battle and have to unload every one into his head to kill him.
And whats bad is you don't really know how your supposed to take him down. Not sure if he has to be attacked in a particular area or not. But no, the way you kill him is to pound the fuck out of him with every heavy weapon you have.

First I emptied every photon torpedo (super charged blast) I could into him. Next was the wonderful arc welder gun. Then I started firing the heavy phaser blasts at the guy. After that I was going to wip out that weird Etherian gun. But after almost exhausting my rifle ammo, he finaly dies.

Yup, there's no reaction and you can't tell if you're hurting him. My first few times fighting him I used up all my ammo on him.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2006-01-31 12:31am

Nefarian, from World of Warcraft, as a Hunter. Not because he's impossible or any such, simply because he can reach into your pocket and pluck out several gold at a whim, more or less. Bitch. (For the uninitiated, he calls out a class, and that class has unhappy things happen. For hunters, your weapon breaks. A high-end epic is EXPENSIVE to fix)

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2006-01-31 05:30pm

I didn't really like the Axe and Sword brothers from Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones. First, the fight is after a Chariot Sequence, which is pretty cheap in itself. That means I'm coming into it with less than optimal sand tanks. Second, you have to fight in a very specific way to beat them (attack Sword, wait for Axe to attack, dodge, attack Axe while he's stuck, repeat) and even after you figure it out, it's still as hard as hell, since Sword has around three times your reach, Axe will kick your ass if you acidentally hit him when he's unstuck, and neither of them are hurt by the fire that's burning around the arena.

MOST irritating.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2006-01-31 05:57pm

weemadando wrote:Jinpachi (Tekken 5) - UNBLOCKABLE VAMPIRE RANGED ATTACK? FUCK OFF!

Yep, this one's definitely true. Difficulty is nothing -- on PS2, he's this bad on Easy, and I think that he pretty much prevents players from playing defensive -- have to go offensive and dominate the match just to avoid catching his over-50% ranged attack(s -- special emphasis on the plural as what has done my character in several times) or his unblockable stun that interrupts any move....

What's sad is that I've beaten him with every character in the game, but my anti-CPU strategy is designed specifically against Jinpachi -- find every character's best (damage-wise) moves that you can do on a whim, and AY-BEE-YU-SE it. Doesn't hafta be an unblockable, a 50+ damage move or a high-low combo, just something that'll keep racking up the damage. If on PS2, tie the press-two-button options to the shoulder buttons (i.e. L1: LP+RP, R1: RP+RK, L2: LP+RK, R2: RP+LK).

Characters like Jack-5, Kuma, Paul Phoenix, even Ganryu excelled at this, as did (surprisingly for me) Anna Williams, Heihachi and Kazuya. The absolute two worst at this were Lei Wulong and Julia Chang. I had to spam Wulong's sweep/spinning RK combo (so it was a pleasant surprise to see him beat the guy in his ending with the same move), and Julia Chang? I literally did nothing but hold Down and mash RK the entire match.

This sound like your experience?

Post by **weemadando** » 2006-01-31 06:24pm

The faster characters I had no problem with. Beating him with the heavy/slow guys was a fucking BITCH because of his interrupts.

Post by **Kuja** » 2006-02-01 01:27pm

Onaga from MK:Deception. BlockblockblockblockblockblockFUCKING MASSIVE UPPERCUTblockblockblockblockblockBAM RINGOUT YOU LOSE

And you can't ring him out no matter how hard you hit him. Bastard.

Lost Soal · Post by **Lost Soal** » 2006-02-01 03:04pm

Edward Yee wrote:
weemadando wrote:Jinpachi (Tekken 5) - UNBLOCKABLE VAMPIRE RANGED ATTACK? FUCK OFF!
Yep, this one's definitely true. Difficulty is nothing -- on PS2, he's this bad on Easy, and I think that he pretty much prevents players from playing defensive -- have to go offensive and dominate the match just to avoid catching his over-50% ranged attack(s -- special emphasis on the plural as what has done my character in several times) or his unblockable stun that interrupts any move....

What's sad is that I've beaten him with every character in the game, but my anti-CPU strategy is designed specifically against Jinpachi -- find every character's best (damage-wise) moves that you can do on a whim, and AY-BEE-YU-SE it. Doesn't hafta be an unblockable, a 50+ damage move or a high-low combo, just something that'll keep racking up the damage. If on PS2, tie the press-two-button options to the shoulder buttons (i.e. L1: LP+RP, R1: RP+RK, L2: LP+RK, R2: RP+LK).

Characters like Jack-5, Kuma, Paul Phoenix, even Ganryu excelled at this, as did (surprisingly for me) Anna Williams, Heihachi and Kazuya. The absolute two worst at this were Lei Wulong and Julia Chang. I had to spam Wulong's sweep/spinning RK combo (so it was a pleasant surprise to see him beat the guy in his ending with the same move), and Julia Chang? I literally did nothing but hold Down and mash RK the entire match.

This sound like your experience?

Played a few goes on my mates PS2, believe I was using Lee when I reached Jinpachi.
I Literally kneed him to death, and if I was lucky got one or two hits while he was falling. If I varied from rising knee kicks, I got beat.

Ar-Adunakhor · Post by **Ar-Adunakhor** » 2006-02-01 06:29pm

Yogi wrote:I didn't really like the Axe and Sword brothers from Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones. First, the fight is after a Chariot Sequence, which is pretty cheap in itself. That means I'm coming into it with less than optimal sand tanks. Second, you have to fight in a very specific way to beat them (attack Sword, wait for Axe to attack, dodge, attack Axe while he's stuck, repeat) and even after you figure it out, it's still as hard as hell, since Sword has around three times your reach, Axe will kick your ass if you acidentally hit him when he's unstuck, and neither of them are hurt by the fire that's burning around the arena.

MOST irritating.

Yes... just... yes. Not only that, but if you ever happen to get in the way of their leap attacks or combo attacks... or even that single super-swipe they do, you are boned.

Another extremely annoying thing was that you had no real way of knowing when the Sword+Axe fight or the Vizier fight (especially this one!) was going to be over. My combo suddenly takes out 1/3 of his health when my previous 4 only took out 1/8th? Ehhhh? WTF? How about a little pacing so we can know when the fight is about to be over, and use our sand accordingly.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-02-01 09:12pm

Yeah I faced a few bosses of this for example that last boss from Elite Force, personally I think it's becuase game maker are getting either lazy or too close to dead line to make anything else. another cheap boss I think is Darth Traya from KOTOR2 (on the light side) you can't use any of your Force buffs or Force healing (as it give it the same effect to her) and then there's the three lightsabers she uses at the end.

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2006-02-02 09:05am

Yu Yevon in FFX. Whose idea was it to make a boss who was vulnerable to zombie? I always thought there was some kind of unspoken rule of boss monsters that said that they shall not be insta-killed, but instead I discovered that I could life him to death.

Not cheap in the way meant, but I felt gypped. Well, I would have, had I not gotten a goodly amount of playtime out of the game before I faced him.

ROAR!!!!! says GOJIRA!!!!!

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2006-02-02 09:38am

Lord Revan wrote:Yeah I faced a few bosses of this for example that last boss from Elite Force, personally I think it's becuase game maker are getting either lazy or too close to dead line to make anything else. another cheap boss I think is Darth Traya from KOTOR2 (on the light side) you can't use any of your Force buffs or Force healing (as it give it the same effect to her) and then there's the three lightsabers she uses at the end.

What are you talking about? Even with her tapping your buffs, she's still an easy takedown. The multiple floating sabers pose somewhat of a problem, but that's dealt with easily enough with using careful positioning, ranged force-attacks such as saber-throw or force storm, and a few strokes of Master Flurry.

I'd have to say that Darth Malik from the original KOTOR is more cheap than Darth Traya because of his massive damage-boost. Even then though, he's nowhere near as cheap or as hard to take down as some of the other bosses mentioned.