Strictly speaking, you are correct; a commodore of the second class is historically the highest rank that normally commands his own flagship (broad pennantship, really, but that is neither here nor there). However, enough Imperial flag officers and broad-pennant officers have been seen to retain personal command of their flagships – e.g., G. Adm. Demetrius Zaarin, Adm. Delak Krennel, Adm. Apwar Trigit, Com. Zuggs – that it appears to be the flag's or broad-pennant's prerogative in the Imperial Navy. This author has traditionally assumed that the unnamed CO was at least a commodore or rear admiral with a preference for personal command, giving Pellaeon the benefit of the doubt by assuming that Chimaera had been the fleet flagship until the CO was killed, thereby explaining why Pellaeon might have felt responsibility for the rest of the fleet (as otherwise, his action would have been even more presumptuous).Shaidar Haran wrote:PS: Paelleon's superior would have to be a Line Captain (and that equivalent to a Commodre, lower half) in order for the arrangement to make sense. Admirals and lesser flag officers do not retain personal command of their flagship. A Line Captain would probably be in between, thus the retention of command yet superiority to Paelleon. Most likely Paelleon's superior was a divsion commander, below an Admiral but above ordinary Captains. He would probably be in charge of one or two ISDs beyond Chimaera herself, though not in direct command.
Thrawn or Palleon?
Moderator: Vympel
-
Publius
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 1912
- Joined: 2002-07-03 08:22pm
- Location: Novus Ordo Sæculorum
- Contact:
God's in His Heaven, all's right with the world
Yeah, fighting an enemy that couldn't bring a single Star Destroyer to heel for three hours must have been really dangerous!
The facts, as I see them, is that Imperial morale was critically low after a series of losses. Obviously, a credible leader like Teshik could rally his men and continue the fight, and equally obviously the rebels were in a poor state themselves. Rather than act like a leader and attempt to regain control of the situation, P. gave in to his panic and ordered a retreat. This is a massive failure. I'm frankly getting tired of hearing people say it was understandable. A military, and an officer corps, thrives on initiative and bravery. P. has neither of these. Comparing him to Thrawn is utterly laughable.
The facts, as I see them, is that Imperial morale was critically low after a series of losses. Obviously, a credible leader like Teshik could rally his men and continue the fight, and equally obviously the rebels were in a poor state themselves. Rather than act like a leader and attempt to regain control of the situation, P. gave in to his panic and ordered a retreat. This is a massive failure. I'm frankly getting tired of hearing people say it was understandable. A military, and an officer corps, thrives on initiative and bravery. P. has neither of these. Comparing him to Thrawn is utterly laughable.
i know this is a tiny bit off topic, but would you be so kind to explain the story of this "Teshlik" and his 3 hour fight? is there any more info on it?
this would seriously back up starks claim, just think of how much damage 10 star destroyers could have done to the rebel fleet, they'd probably anhilated it!
this would seriously back up starks claim, just think of how much damage 10 star destroyers could have done to the rebel fleet, they'd probably anhilated it!
As long there is gravity, ride on...
-
Chris OFarrell
- Durandal's Bitch
- Posts: 5724
- Joined: 2002-08-02 07:57pm
- Contact:
I'm going to offer an alternative viewpoint here, because frankly I think a lot of the theories being tossed around here make little sense.
First the idea that this Imperial Admiral stayed around for 3 hours after the Imperial Fleet pulled out.
This is simply insane.
Thrawn *HIMSELF* couldn't hold out for three hours with a single ISD against a dozen Mon-Cal cruisers, several of which rank as pocket battleships, plus dozens of smaller warships.
The far more likely probability to this claim is that this is Imperial propaganda, his ship was disabled early on and left behind when communications with it was cut off (hence this guy not being in command of the fleet otherwise there is no excuse for him NOT countermanding Pealleons orders) and the Imperials ret coned it into a heroic last stand as part of a propaganda campaign. Where in reality, his ship was effectively disabled earlier on, then the rebels finally put it down for good when they got round to it and the last of the fighting Imperial Fleet withdrew.
Second the idea that the Imperial fleet COULD have rallied and crushed the rebels.
There is no magic button that says 'Rally' like in Dawn of War. It takes a lot more then a simple order to get people fighting effectively again, especially when your probably talking about over a million men here who are on the defensive, without communications and at this point NOT fighting as a unit.
Imperial Moral *WAS* critically low, that is a state you don't come back from easily. They had completely lost co-ordination between their ships AS a fleet unit making any kind of fleet response unlikely at best anyway, even assuming communications COULD be restored, which clearly it couldn't be. As the sources say, the rebels were trained to fight in these conditions, the Imperials were not.
Fact. The Imperial fleet was performing absurdly poorly thanks to low moral caused in part by their situation combined with the biological 'down' of the battle meditation being cut off. They were performing so poorly in fact that Thrawn scoffed at their performance, comparing them to cadets. Another source in HTTE says that while under Battle Meditation, the Chimeria's crew were running 40% ahead of the curve in every department compared to their 'normal' efficient selves. The sudden loss of the meditation would have drooped them far under even their normal level, so the difference IS marked.
Fact. The Imperial fleet had lost its C4I systems with first the loss of the Communications ship, then the comparable systems on Executor and finally the Death Star itself. The fleet then degenerated into a brawl action on the Imperials side, without any unit cohesion, there may not have *existed* any mechanism to regain unit cohesion at this point, except spamming a single general order like 'RETREAT'.
Third. That Pealleon wasn't the next in line.
Pealleon simply HAD to be next in the chain of command after the death of his Captain, otherwise by definition, no-one would have followed his orders, the next person in the chain of command would have countermanded the order. I seriously don't see why this is such a hard concept to understand. If there was an intact chain of command, the fact that Pealleon gave the order makes it a legal order. If there wasn't a chain of command, then Pealleon stepped into the power vacuum and did what needed to be done, given the complete absence of leadership!
There may have been officers higher ranking then Pealleon still active with the Imperial fleet, perhaps perhaps not. Who knows. But thats hardly conclusive, after all Peit was in overall command and there were three Admirals who outranked him by many levels present with the fleet, but he was at the top of the chain of command. A similar thing could easily be set up here with technically junior officers in command of more senior officers. I could see this comming about with the chain of command established with the "Death Squadron" being supreme. And the extra ships called from the local sector fleet to fill out their formations for the ambush simply being assigned as organic reinforcements to those existing formations, without regard for any rank they may have.
Or on the other hand, Pealleon could have been a Captain of a more senior rank, like a Line Captian so it works that way too. But regardless, he clearly was next in line.
And last, we know several high ranking officers fled the battle after the Death Star was destroyed even before the order was given to retreat. We also know at least some junior officers in charge of Star Destroyers had decided to retreat without any authority long before Pealleon gave the order, so the fleet was ALREADY breaking appart and a rout was getting dangerously close.
So in the end, Pelleon WAS in command. He DID have the authority and he DID issue the only order at the time he could. Perhaps he should have issued an order to rally a light year away or so, take an hour to get it together, THEN jump back in...but it also might have been impossible due to the breakdown in C4I mentioned in the engagement. It could be all he could do was send a prearanged set of signals declaring he was in charge and for all ships to disengage and procead to the designated rally point.
But I don't see any evidence he overstepped his authority given the situation...because we don't have even ONE person above him in the chain of command SAYING SO!
First the idea that this Imperial Admiral stayed around for 3 hours after the Imperial Fleet pulled out.
This is simply insane.
Thrawn *HIMSELF* couldn't hold out for three hours with a single ISD against a dozen Mon-Cal cruisers, several of which rank as pocket battleships, plus dozens of smaller warships.
The far more likely probability to this claim is that this is Imperial propaganda, his ship was disabled early on and left behind when communications with it was cut off (hence this guy not being in command of the fleet otherwise there is no excuse for him NOT countermanding Pealleons orders) and the Imperials ret coned it into a heroic last stand as part of a propaganda campaign. Where in reality, his ship was effectively disabled earlier on, then the rebels finally put it down for good when they got round to it and the last of the fighting Imperial Fleet withdrew.
Second the idea that the Imperial fleet COULD have rallied and crushed the rebels.
There is no magic button that says 'Rally' like in Dawn of War. It takes a lot more then a simple order to get people fighting effectively again, especially when your probably talking about over a million men here who are on the defensive, without communications and at this point NOT fighting as a unit.
Imperial Moral *WAS* critically low, that is a state you don't come back from easily. They had completely lost co-ordination between their ships AS a fleet unit making any kind of fleet response unlikely at best anyway, even assuming communications COULD be restored, which clearly it couldn't be. As the sources say, the rebels were trained to fight in these conditions, the Imperials were not.
Fact. The Imperial fleet was performing absurdly poorly thanks to low moral caused in part by their situation combined with the biological 'down' of the battle meditation being cut off. They were performing so poorly in fact that Thrawn scoffed at their performance, comparing them to cadets. Another source in HTTE says that while under Battle Meditation, the Chimeria's crew were running 40% ahead of the curve in every department compared to their 'normal' efficient selves. The sudden loss of the meditation would have drooped them far under even their normal level, so the difference IS marked.
Fact. The Imperial fleet had lost its C4I systems with first the loss of the Communications ship, then the comparable systems on Executor and finally the Death Star itself. The fleet then degenerated into a brawl action on the Imperials side, without any unit cohesion, there may not have *existed* any mechanism to regain unit cohesion at this point, except spamming a single general order like 'RETREAT'.
Third. That Pealleon wasn't the next in line.
Pealleon simply HAD to be next in the chain of command after the death of his Captain, otherwise by definition, no-one would have followed his orders, the next person in the chain of command would have countermanded the order. I seriously don't see why this is such a hard concept to understand. If there was an intact chain of command, the fact that Pealleon gave the order makes it a legal order. If there wasn't a chain of command, then Pealleon stepped into the power vacuum and did what needed to be done, given the complete absence of leadership!
There may have been officers higher ranking then Pealleon still active with the Imperial fleet, perhaps perhaps not. Who knows. But thats hardly conclusive, after all Peit was in overall command and there were three Admirals who outranked him by many levels present with the fleet, but he was at the top of the chain of command. A similar thing could easily be set up here with technically junior officers in command of more senior officers. I could see this comming about with the chain of command established with the "Death Squadron" being supreme. And the extra ships called from the local sector fleet to fill out their formations for the ambush simply being assigned as organic reinforcements to those existing formations, without regard for any rank they may have.
Or on the other hand, Pealleon could have been a Captain of a more senior rank, like a Line Captian so it works that way too. But regardless, he clearly was next in line.
And last, we know several high ranking officers fled the battle after the Death Star was destroyed even before the order was given to retreat. We also know at least some junior officers in charge of Star Destroyers had decided to retreat without any authority long before Pealleon gave the order, so the fleet was ALREADY breaking appart and a rout was getting dangerously close.
So in the end, Pelleon WAS in command. He DID have the authority and he DID issue the only order at the time he could. Perhaps he should have issued an order to rally a light year away or so, take an hour to get it together, THEN jump back in...but it also might have been impossible due to the breakdown in C4I mentioned in the engagement. It could be all he could do was send a prearanged set of signals declaring he was in charge and for all ships to disengage and procead to the designated rally point.
But I don't see any evidence he overstepped his authority given the situation...because we don't have even ONE person above him in the chain of command SAYING SO!
I agree with that Chris- just a minor nitpick- the proper spelling of "moral" is morale 
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/
Chris OFarrell said everything what I have had in mind and then some and much more elaborately and directly than I could have. I agree with his theory.
By the way (I'm trying to theorize about Pellaeon's level of authority when compared to other captains, which has been brought into question), don't all who have the rank of captain (not counting line captains, who are superior) technically possess the same level of authority? I remember reading from Dr. Saxton's Technical Commentaries that it is indeed so, but in practice those who are in command of a ship are usually regarded with higher respect. So Pellaeon (who did not receive any promotions after Battle of Endor and before the resurrected Emperor's return, ergo he must have been a Captain during the Battle of Endoe) would have the same authority as the rest of the fleet's captains and when his superior officer (Chimaera's line captain) was killed, Pellaeon (the said Line Captain's second-in-command) assumed command of Chimaera and called for retreat. That was either a) order among equals, which was then followed or b) a temporary superior's order (second-in-command outranks mere captains (?)) and thus a order which was compulsory to follow in the absence of verified higher authority (it is clear that the Grand Admiral Teshik could not establish his authority and Admiral Harrsk had been seriously injured and most likely in a medical facility, unable to give commands). As such he did not delibarately overextend his authority's limits, since so far as anyone knew he was the acting authority of the remaining fleet (which had lost six Star Destroyers, Executor, possibly even more Star Destroyers to Rebels' capture attempts (did Thrawn's "six Star Destroyers" remark include Dark Empire's two captured Star Destroyers?) and several other ships due to outright cowardice and unauthorized retreat by junior officers and the ships' captains).
I hope that this made at least some sense.
By the way (I'm trying to theorize about Pellaeon's level of authority when compared to other captains, which has been brought into question), don't all who have the rank of captain (not counting line captains, who are superior) technically possess the same level of authority? I remember reading from Dr. Saxton's Technical Commentaries that it is indeed so, but in practice those who are in command of a ship are usually regarded with higher respect. So Pellaeon (who did not receive any promotions after Battle of Endor and before the resurrected Emperor's return, ergo he must have been a Captain during the Battle of Endoe) would have the same authority as the rest of the fleet's captains and when his superior officer (Chimaera's line captain) was killed, Pellaeon (the said Line Captain's second-in-command) assumed command of Chimaera and called for retreat. That was either a) order among equals, which was then followed or b) a temporary superior's order (second-in-command outranks mere captains (?)) and thus a order which was compulsory to follow in the absence of verified higher authority (it is clear that the Grand Admiral Teshik could not establish his authority and Admiral Harrsk had been seriously injured and most likely in a medical facility, unable to give commands). As such he did not delibarately overextend his authority's limits, since so far as anyone knew he was the acting authority of the remaining fleet (which had lost six Star Destroyers, Executor, possibly even more Star Destroyers to Rebels' capture attempts (did Thrawn's "six Star Destroyers" remark include Dark Empire's two captured Star Destroyers?) and several other ships due to outright cowardice and unauthorized retreat by junior officers and the ships' captains).
I hope that this made at least some sense.
Confiteor Deo omnipotenti; beatae Mariae semper Virgini; beato Michaeli Archangelo; sanctis Apostolis, omnibus sanctis... Tibit Pater, quia peccavi nimis, cogitatione, verbo et opere, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! Kyrie Eleison!
The Imperial Senate (defunct) * Knights Astrum Clades * The Mess
The Imperial Senate (defunct) * Knights Astrum Clades * The Mess
Well I'm convinced. Since Chris says P. was in command 'because he MUST be in command' that's just open and shut. Not circular at all. Good thing the military doesn't have rules for this or anything. You know, maybe they could drill some kind of 'command structure' into their officer corps so that everyone always knows who's in charge, and people overstepping their authority could be detected and punished?
OH WAIT.
XOs are outranked by every captain commanding in the fleet. Whoops. Oh noes! Regardless of whether anyone AGREES with his decision (which I certainly do not) he was not in a position to make it.
The issue isn't whether the Imperial fleet could be rallied - although I'm way, way beyond sick of hearing people say 'zomg battle meditation, Imps doing badly *craps pants*'. Even the Rebels could admit a counterattack by even a small number of ISDs would have routed or totally destroyed their remaining forces. But no, they'd broken and were all sissy girls. Lets forget the ships that fought on, or the commanders who didn't flee/crap their pants like P..
We cannot forget that P. called the retreat too far away to counterattack and destroy the rebel fleet, as the rebels themselves feared. Let's just cry about 'ZOMG MORAL LOLZ' and treat anyone who expects military officers to behave with courage and enterprise with disdain. Lets ignore any quotes from sources detailing the weakness of the remaining Rebel forces, the known length of the battle and approximate times of various losses, let's ignore quotes from people at the scene: role playing rules are way, way more important than that. And military personell in difficult, low morale situations are always, always forgiven for running away and losing an opportunity for total victory. Right?
Oh Chris baby - the Rebels were afraid of a counterattack by only a few ISDs. I wonder what that suggests about their remaining combat effectiveness! But no, I'm glad you stepped in with your well supported 'Teshik couldn't have lasted three hours against a fleet that would be routed or totally destroyed by perhaps four ISDs'. Woot. This was published in Truce at Bakura Sourcebook, quoted by Publius and ignored by all. Debating standards ahoy hoy!
OH WAIT.
XOs are outranked by every captain commanding in the fleet. Whoops. Oh noes! Regardless of whether anyone AGREES with his decision (which I certainly do not) he was not in a position to make it.
The issue isn't whether the Imperial fleet could be rallied - although I'm way, way beyond sick of hearing people say 'zomg battle meditation, Imps doing badly *craps pants*'. Even the Rebels could admit a counterattack by even a small number of ISDs would have routed or totally destroyed their remaining forces. But no, they'd broken and were all sissy girls. Lets forget the ships that fought on, or the commanders who didn't flee/crap their pants like P..
We cannot forget that P. called the retreat too far away to counterattack and destroy the rebel fleet, as the rebels themselves feared. Let's just cry about 'ZOMG MORAL LOLZ' and treat anyone who expects military officers to behave with courage and enterprise with disdain. Lets ignore any quotes from sources detailing the weakness of the remaining Rebel forces, the known length of the battle and approximate times of various losses, let's ignore quotes from people at the scene: role playing rules are way, way more important than that. And military personell in difficult, low morale situations are always, always forgiven for running away and losing an opportunity for total victory. Right?
Oh Chris baby - the Rebels were afraid of a counterattack by only a few ISDs. I wonder what that suggests about their remaining combat effectiveness! But no, I'm glad you stepped in with your well supported 'Teshik couldn't have lasted three hours against a fleet that would be routed or totally destroyed by perhaps four ISDs'. Woot. This was published in Truce at Bakura Sourcebook, quoted by Publius and ignored by all. Debating standards ahoy hoy!
-
LordShaithis
- Redshirt
- Posts: 3179
- Joined: 2002-07-08 11:02am
- Location: Michigan
"LOL CHAIN OF COMMAND DECIMATED! LOL EMPEROR DEAD! DEATH STAR BLOWT UP LMAO! FLAGSHIP CRASHED SO WHAT!!! ENTIRE FORCE FROM ADMIRAL DOWN TO GUY SWABBING THE DECK UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE? AND SUDDENLY CUT OFF FROM IT?? WHO CARES!! STOP BEING PUSSYS AND CRUSH TEH REBALS11!!!"
If Religion and Politics were characters on a soap opera, Religion would be the one that goes insane with jealousy over Politics' intimate relationship with Reality, and secretly murder Politics in the night, skin the corpse, and run around its apartment wearing the skin like a cape shouting "My votes now! All votes for me! Wheeee!" -- Lagmonster
-
Shaidar Haran
- Padawan Learner
- Posts: 432
- Joined: 2003-03-26 01:12am
If they wanted to take the ship intact, and capture the Grand Admiral aboard, then it's entirely possible that the three hours was consumed mostly in the effort to subdue the ship.Stark wrote:Yeah, fighting an enemy that couldn't bring a single Star Destroyer to heel for three hours must have been really dangerous!
The simple absurdity of one ship against a fleet, lasting for three hours, suggests that it's either pure propoganda or there is more to the story than appears on the surface.
You do have a point, though I would point out that Krennel, Trigit, and Zaarin were all rogues or went rogue. They therefor would be unlikely to surrender their powerbase (ie their ship) to another. Therefor they're not the best examples. And Zuggs could theoretically be a Commodore of the lower half.Publius wrote:Strictly speaking, you are correct; a commodore of the second class is historically the highest rank that normally commands his own flagship (broad pennantship, really, but that is neither here nor there). However, enough Imperial flag officers and broad-pennant officers have been seen to retain personal command of their flagships – e.g., G. Adm. Demetrius Zaarin, Adm. Delak Krennel, Adm. Apwar Trigit, Com. Zuggs – that it appears to be the flag's or broad-pennant's prerogative in the Imperial Navy.
You are right that there would be some precedent.
Actually, he could also be of the rank Line Captain, making him the commander of a division, which would fit equally well. This would give Paelleon a bit of authority with out adding a third flagship into the mix with Executor and Harssk's own ship.Publius wrote:This author has traditionally assumed that the unnamed CO was at least a commodore or rear admiral with a preference for personal command, giving Pellaeon the benefit of the doubt by assuming that Chimaera had been the fleet flagship until the CO was killed, thereby explaining why Pellaeon might have felt responsibility for the rest of the fleet (as otherwise, his action would have been even more presumptuous).
Last edited by Shaidar Haran on 2006-01-31 11:15am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Crazedwraith
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 11952
- Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
- Location: Cheshire, England
A have a few questions:
Is there in-universe evidence that any CO can boss about any XO regardless of actual rank? Or is this an assumption based on RL militaries?
GA Teshik, fighting for three hours, do the sources specify if he just had his ISD or did he have other forces?
The bottom line with the Pealleon issue to me is:
If he didn't have the authority then why did no one countermand his order? Why did no-one comm back: "shut up Pealleon you ass, you can't order that."?
Is there in-universe evidence that any CO can boss about any XO regardless of actual rank? Or is this an assumption based on RL militaries?
GA Teshik, fighting for three hours, do the sources specify if he just had his ISD or did he have other forces?
The bottom line with the Pealleon issue to me is:
If he didn't have the authority then why did no one countermand his order? Why did no-one comm back: "shut up Pealleon you ass, you can't order that."?
-
Shaidar Haran
- Padawan Learner
- Posts: 432
- Joined: 2003-03-26 01:12am
That would be the million dollar question and no one has cited any sort of precedent that I've seen.Crazedwraith wrote:A have a few questions:
Is there in-universe evidence that any CO can boss about any XO regardless of actual rank? Or is this an assumption based on RL militaries?
The Empire's military seems to suffer the besetting sin of most authortarian state's militaries, once the plan goes out the window most officers seem to have no intiative to correct the problem. Even with Thrawn it was always carry out the plan or fail it. Like the Japanese at the Battle off Samar, once things became disorganized and the neatness of the plan lost things they quit.Crazedwraith wrote:The bottom line with the Pealleon issue to me is:
If he didn't have the authority then why did no one countermand his order? Why did no-one comm back: "shut up Pealleon you ass, you can't order that."?
Paelleon showed initiative, correctly or not, and the rest followed like good little sheep.
-
Fire Fly
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 1608
- Joined: 2004-01-06 12:03am
- Location: Grand old Badger State
I'm confused. Publius has addressed each issue and supported his claims with evidence but its being swept aside...
The Imperial Fleet was in chaos but the situation was not lost entirely yet, as demonstrated by Grand Admiral Teshik. If, per Chris OFarrell's theory that the Rebels wanted to capture the Grand Admiral, how is it that the Rebels know he is there yet the remaining Imperial Fleet does not? There's only two possible reasons:
1) the Imperial Fleet did not know he was there
2) the Imperial Fleet knew he was there and abandoned Teshik
If its number one, then Pellaeon, being the one who assumed command of the remaining portion of the Fleet, should have made a clear assessment of the situation before ordering a retreat. If he did and found no higher commander and everyone else just followed his command in panic, then the fault lies with Teshik for not clearly indicating his command.
But if, again per Chris OFarrell's theory, the Rebels wanted to capture Teshik, they knew he was there, then surely Teshik did broadcast that he was on his flagship. If such, then command of the Fleet would have fell onto the Grand Admiral. In such a case then, Teshik was abandoned by Pellaeon, who assumed command.
The Imperial Fleet was in chaos but the situation was not lost entirely yet, as demonstrated by Grand Admiral Teshik. If, per Chris OFarrell's theory that the Rebels wanted to capture the Grand Admiral, how is it that the Rebels know he is there yet the remaining Imperial Fleet does not? There's only two possible reasons:
1) the Imperial Fleet did not know he was there
2) the Imperial Fleet knew he was there and abandoned Teshik
If its number one, then Pellaeon, being the one who assumed command of the remaining portion of the Fleet, should have made a clear assessment of the situation before ordering a retreat. If he did and found no higher commander and everyone else just followed his command in panic, then the fault lies with Teshik for not clearly indicating his command.
But if, again per Chris OFarrell's theory, the Rebels wanted to capture Teshik, they knew he was there, then surely Teshik did broadcast that he was on his flagship. If such, then command of the Fleet would have fell onto the Grand Admiral. In such a case then, Teshik was abandoned by Pellaeon, who assumed command.
Quick question: where does he state so? I must have overlooked it, since I don't remember it being mentioned (and it is clear that at least Pellaeon was not aware of Teshik's presence and that would imply that no other Imperial had contact with the Grand Admiral's ship, since they would have outright refused to carry out orders of a mere Captain when Grand Admiral was there - at least I presume so).Fire Fly wrote:If, per Chris OFarrell's theory that the Rebels wanted to capture the Grand Admiral
Confiteor Deo omnipotenti; beatae Mariae semper Virgini; beato Michaeli Archangelo; sanctis Apostolis, omnibus sanctis... Tibit Pater, quia peccavi nimis, cogitatione, verbo et opere, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! Kyrie Eleison!
The Imperial Senate (defunct) * Knights Astrum Clades * The Mess
The Imperial Senate (defunct) * Knights Astrum Clades * The Mess
-
Shaidar Haran
- Padawan Learner
- Posts: 432
- Joined: 2003-03-26 01:12am
He didn't. I suggested that Rebel efforts to capture his ship intact might explain how he "fought" for three hours against the whole fleet. He was simply fighting off boardings.Tiriol wrote:Quick question: where does he state so? I must have overlooked it, since I don't remember it being mentioned (and it is clear that at least Pellaeon was not aware of Teshik's presence and that would imply that no other Imperial had contact with the Grand Admiral's ship, since they would have outright refused to carry out orders of a mere Captain when Grand Admiral was there - at least I presume so).Fire Fly wrote:If, per Chris OFarrell's theory that the Rebels wanted to capture the Grand Admiral
With regards to Grand Admiral Continuity Error of the Star Destroy Retcon I would like to make a number of points:Fire Fly wrote:The Imperial Fleet was in chaos but the situation was not lost entirely yet, as demonstrated by Grand Admiral Teshik. If, per Chris OFarrell's theory that the Rebels wanted to capture the Grand Admiral, how is it that the Rebels know he is there yet the remaining Imperial Fleet does not?
1) Grand Admiral Teshik was not in the chain of command, period. He was there as an observer aboard the Death Star, not as an officer of the Death Squadron. As Publius said, he was not "afloat" which means he would have had to assume authority on his own iniative and nothing else.
2) Teshik thus would have had to displace an officer already in command or force his way in at the change of command. Which in light of the communications problems, means a signficant delay and confusion in an already weakened chain of command.
3) It seems that if he established any command over the fleet at all, it was tenative. Most likely he only established partial control and by the end communication failures and battle damage probably resulted in him losing that and being written off for dead or wounded.
Stark, I concede the point concerning exactly when Harrsk rejected command.
Right, so as Publius has said, Pellaeon did NOT impersonate an Imperial officer, so thats cleared up.
And, as Pellaeon received no promotion between Endor and HttE, he must have been a Captain at Endor, and of equal rank to the other remaining officers present after his CO was killed. Harrsk was obviously severely injured, and probably in no state to take command, only being able to reject Pellaeons command 48 hours later, and as we have seen, Bacta can restore someone to at least marginal operational capacity in this period with this severity of injury.
At this point therefore there is only Pellaeon, a Captain at least, and the other ship CO's left, all of equal rank. Stark has presented no evidence to prove that in the SW galaxy CO's of fleet ships outrank XO's of Flagships, given an equal rank. The evidence available suggests this is not the case, as when Pellaeon gave the order, the other CO's obeyed, including presumably the CO of Harrsk's ship, as Harrsk himself could not be consulted as he was lacking most of his face at the time. The CO/XO idea is based purely on RL navies, and nothing from the SW galaxy, when evidence which I have just stated from the SW galaxy clearly indicates it is not the case.
Is there anything which says that it was a continuing space action that Teshik was fighting, could it perhaps be a boarding action by the Rebellion, who were trying to capture Teshik? The Rebel forces would have had to fight past around 5,000 stormtroopers remember, plus however many of the over 30,000 strong crew who took up arms. It is a far more ludicrous idea that a single ISD, already evidently battle damaged, could hold its own for 3 hours against many times its number in Mon Cal cruisers and other Rebel ships. As for why they would board this ship, they had already done so with two others, and were perhaps also attempting to salvage this vessel.
I agree entirely with Chris, Pellaeon was not superior to the other CO's, however he gave an order as equal rank to them, but CO of the senior ship present (Chimaera would have been the flagship at this point wouldn't it?). Regardless, the other CO's clearly didn't argue or attempt to countermand the order, but followed it. If they had known Teshik was present, they would not have done so, but they did not, so they agreed with Pellaeon that the best course of action at that point was to retreat.
The quote from Ackbar concerning the idea that several ISD's could severely damage the fleet is IMO refferring to the idea of several fresh ISD's achieving tactical surprise, and hitting the strung out and vulnerable Rebel formation where they were weakest.
Unless someone can present evidence to prove that IN THE SW GALAXY XO's of flagships are outranked by CO's of the same rank of fleet ships under such a situation, Pellaeon does NOT deserve a court martial.
Right, so as Publius has said, Pellaeon did NOT impersonate an Imperial officer, so thats cleared up.
And, as Pellaeon received no promotion between Endor and HttE, he must have been a Captain at Endor, and of equal rank to the other remaining officers present after his CO was killed. Harrsk was obviously severely injured, and probably in no state to take command, only being able to reject Pellaeons command 48 hours later, and as we have seen, Bacta can restore someone to at least marginal operational capacity in this period with this severity of injury.
At this point therefore there is only Pellaeon, a Captain at least, and the other ship CO's left, all of equal rank. Stark has presented no evidence to prove that in the SW galaxy CO's of fleet ships outrank XO's of Flagships, given an equal rank. The evidence available suggests this is not the case, as when Pellaeon gave the order, the other CO's obeyed, including presumably the CO of Harrsk's ship, as Harrsk himself could not be consulted as he was lacking most of his face at the time. The CO/XO idea is based purely on RL navies, and nothing from the SW galaxy, when evidence which I have just stated from the SW galaxy clearly indicates it is not the case.
Is there anything which says that it was a continuing space action that Teshik was fighting, could it perhaps be a boarding action by the Rebellion, who were trying to capture Teshik? The Rebel forces would have had to fight past around 5,000 stormtroopers remember, plus however many of the over 30,000 strong crew who took up arms. It is a far more ludicrous idea that a single ISD, already evidently battle damaged, could hold its own for 3 hours against many times its number in Mon Cal cruisers and other Rebel ships. As for why they would board this ship, they had already done so with two others, and were perhaps also attempting to salvage this vessel.
I agree entirely with Chris, Pellaeon was not superior to the other CO's, however he gave an order as equal rank to them, but CO of the senior ship present (Chimaera would have been the flagship at this point wouldn't it?). Regardless, the other CO's clearly didn't argue or attempt to countermand the order, but followed it. If they had known Teshik was present, they would not have done so, but they did not, so they agreed with Pellaeon that the best course of action at that point was to retreat.
The quote from Ackbar concerning the idea that several ISD's could severely damage the fleet is IMO refferring to the idea of several fresh ISD's achieving tactical surprise, and hitting the strung out and vulnerable Rebel formation where they were weakest.
Unless someone can present evidence to prove that IN THE SW GALAXY XO's of flagships are outranked by CO's of the same rank of fleet ships under such a situation, Pellaeon does NOT deserve a court martial.
-
Darth Cronos the Proud
- Youngling
- Posts: 104
- Joined: 2006-01-02 12:16am
- Location: Philadephia, Pennsylvania, USA
It could be possible that neither the Rebels or Imperials knew that he (Grand Admiral Teshik) was aboard the Star Destroyer. The Rebels could have simply said "here's an obstinant commander who's decided to stay and fight when the rest of the Imperial Fleet has feld. It's a perfect opportunity to both build up out fleet and deprive the already routed Imperials of a powerful ship by capturing it." This, as others have said, would also explain the three hour long fight (which others, as well as myself, think is a rather long time for the Rebel Fleet to take down one ship.)Fire Fly wrote:If, per Chris OFarrell's theory that the Rebels wanted to capture the Grand Admiral, how is it that the Rebels know he is there yet the remaining Imperial Fleet does not?
"It is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with." Niccolo Machiavelli
"The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."
Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, Episode III: Revenge of the Sith
"The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."
Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, Episode III: Revenge of the Sith
Especially when you consider how relativily quickly they took down the shields on the Executor, a much larger and more powerful ship.Darth Cronos the Proud wrote:It could be possible that neither the Rebels or Imperials knew that he (Grand Admiral Teshik) was aboard the Star Destroyer. The Rebels could have simply said "here's an obstinant commander who's decided to stay and fight when the rest of the Imperial Fleet has feld. It's a perfect opportunity to both build up out fleet and deprive the already routed Imperials of a powerful ship by capturing it." This, as others have said, would also explain the three hour long fight (which others, as well as myself, think is a rather long time for the Rebel Fleet to take down one ship.)Fire Fly wrote:If, per Chris OFarrell's theory that the Rebels wanted to capture the Grand Admiral, how is it that the Rebels know he is there yet the remaining Imperial Fleet does not?
-
Darth Cronos the Proud
- Youngling
- Posts: 104
- Joined: 2006-01-02 12:16am
- Location: Philadephia, Pennsylvania, USA
I think the discussion has gotten way off topic. I originally wanted to compare NJO/Dark Swarm Palleon to Thrawn right before his death. Whether or not we can agree on whether some of the actions of Palleon at the Battle of Endor or earlier are militarily and/or criminally suspect is only relevant if we all begin to discuss Palleon's growth, if any (and this will probably be a point of contention), from the Battle of Endor up until the NJO/Dark Swarm book series.Vaporous wrote:Agreed. I don't think you could debate that. Thrawn was insane uber crazy. The only question we've focused on is whether or not Pelleaon sucks.Stark wrote:Comparing him to Thrawn is utterly laughable.
"It is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with." Niccolo Machiavelli
"The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."
Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, Episode III: Revenge of the Sith
"The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."
Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, Episode III: Revenge of the Sith
Did anyone here actually read the book? Because mine indicates that Pellaeon didn't give the order to retreat
Unless there is something seriously wrong with my copy then anyone bagging Pellaeon for the retreat is wrong.
Since this is Pellaeon's thoughts he has obviously been given the order to retreat from someone higher up. It doesn't define when the Chimaera's captain was killed, only that it was after the retreat signal had been handed down. That could have been by the former captain, or by other higher officer off ship.The Fleet had never recovered from that fiasco. With the Executor's leadership gone, the battle had quickly turned into a confused rout, with several other Star Destroyers being lost before the order to withdraw had finally been given. Pellaeon himself, taking command when the Chimaera's former captain was killed, had done what he could to hold things together; but despite his best efforts, they had never regained the initiative against the Rebels. Instead, they had been steadily pushed back......until they were here.
Unless there is something seriously wrong with my copy then anyone bagging Pellaeon for the retreat is wrong.
Marcus Aurelius: ...the Swedish S-tank; the exception is made mostly because the Swedes insisted really hard that it is a tank rather than a tank destroyer or assault gun
Ilya Muromets: And now I have this image of a massive, stern-looking Swede staring down a bunch of military nerds. "It's a tank." "Uh, yes Sir. Please don't hurt us."
Ilya Muromets: And now I have this image of a massive, stern-looking Swede staring down a bunch of military nerds. "It's a tank." "Uh, yes Sir. Please don't hurt us."
Thanks for the worthless contribution. We're talking about legalities, and P. was not legally able to issue the orders he did. Further, all the claims of an impossible victory are totally scuppered by the fear the rebels had of any counterattack, even a laughably small one like two or three ISDs. So fuck you and your staggering lack of analysis. I'm not going to bother to point out that my opponents in this thread have ignored points raised and evidence quoted that support their position, so I'm going to assume they're lazy or incompetent.LordShaithis wrote:"LOL CHAIN OF COMMAND DECIMATED! LOL EMPEROR DEAD! DEATH STAR BLOWT UP LMAO! FLAGSHIP CRASHED SO WHAT!!! ENTIRE FORCE FROM ADMIRAL DOWN TO GUY SWABBING THE DECK UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE? AND SUDDENLY CUT OFF FROM IT?? WHO CARES!! STOP BEING PUSSYS AND CRUSH TEH REBALS11!!!"
Lazarus, I almost totally agree with you. I'm glad some of my opponents actually READ Publius' posts, and noticed that there is at least one source showing that P. *did* announce the death of his CO. However, P. rank is less important than his position, as he was not a commander of anything in the sense of being in charge. He may have outranked the commanders of other ships, but they are senior to him by virtue of being commanders, rather like Piett being assigned command over Grand Admirals, even though he was lower rank than them.
With regards the speculation regarding Teshiks battle, I of course agree that the Rebels were trying to capture him. However, if my opponents view of rebel strength are correct (ie, it was a hopeless battle for more than a dozen ISDs) it is absurd that it would take hours to even disable his ship, given such a massive disparity. When taken in context with the knowledge that a small number of ISDs (specifically 'ISDs from Endor', not new, fresh ones) would force a retreat on the rebels, it's clear that their fleet was much, much more battered than many think.
With regard to the OP, embarrasingly enough I know pretty much nothing of P. later (apparently more successful) career. I'd be interested in learning more, particularly from the perspective of his growth as an officer. It's interesting we're thinking in such terms for such an old man, who shouldn't be learning anything more about space combat - but I guess finally getting positions of command and authority may have allowed him to grow in confidence, which seemed to be what he lacked in his early (by which I mean decades) career.
He didn't, see my above post.We're talking about legalities, and P. was not legally able to issue the orders he did.
Marcus Aurelius: ...the Swedish S-tank; the exception is made mostly because the Swedes insisted really hard that it is a tank rather than a tank destroyer or assault gun
Ilya Muromets: And now I have this image of a massive, stern-looking Swede staring down a bunch of military nerds. "It's a tank." "Uh, yes Sir. Please don't hurt us."
Ilya Muromets: And now I have this image of a massive, stern-looking Swede staring down a bunch of military nerds. "It's a tank." "Uh, yes Sir. Please don't hurt us."
-
Darth Cronos the Proud
- Youngling
- Posts: 104
- Joined: 2006-01-02 12:16am
- Location: Philadephia, Pennsylvania, USA
20/20 Hindsight's pretty handy, huh? I have to admit that Palleon is one of my favorite EU characters (and when I posted this poll I was pulling for Palleon because I think Thrawn has had alot of author wanking), so it kinda erks me that serveral people in this thread are using knowledge that the Imperials couldn't have known at the time to prevent justification for the idea that the Imperials, after the loss of morale cuased by several factors already outlined in this thread, couldn't mount a serious counter attack, as well as to bash Palleon.Stark wrote:Further, all the claims of an impossible victory are totally scuppered by the fear the rebels had of any counterattack, even a laughably small one like two or three ISDs.
And, as I stated in my last post, even if all of the 20/20 hindsight backed anti-Palleon stuff is correct, couldn't the NJO/Swarm War Palleon have grown beyond that? As stated above, this poll is between the NJO/Swarm War Palleon and the right-before-his-death Thrawn. If you wanna debate the merits of a Battle of Endor Palleon with Thrawn right before his death, that's for a different thread.
"It is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with." Niccolo Machiavelli
"The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."
Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, Episode III: Revenge of the Sith
"The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."
Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, Episode III: Revenge of the Sith
atg wrote:Did anyone here actually read the book? Because mine indicates that Pellaeon didn't give the order to retreat
Since this is Pellaeon's thoughts he has obviously been given the order to retreat from someone higher up. It doesn't define when the Chimaera's captain was killed, only that it was after the retreat signal had been handed down. That could have been by the former captain, or by other higher officer off ship.The Fleet had never recovered from that fiasco. With the Executor's leadership gone, the battle had quickly turned into a confused rout, with several other Star Destroyers being lost before the order to withdraw had finally been given. Pellaeon himself, taking command when the Chimaera's former captain was killed, had done what he could to hold things together; but despite his best efforts, they had never regained the initiative against the Rebels. Instead, they had been steadily pushed back......until they were here.
Unless there is something seriously wrong with my copy then anyone bagging Pellaeon for the retreat is wrong.
Unless it comes out later on that he did give the order (which I'm pretty sure it does), you may have just won the thread.