Relieve Picard of his command?

[SpyderGS]

Consider that Jean-Luc Picard is a Starfleet captain with great responsibility. Presumably, he has had even greater training in command and tactics (since Starfleet must act as a military force as well as exploratory).
Why would Starfleet continue to give this man (other than a complete break-down in decision making at the highest levels) valuable and powerful starships to command?
To date he has lost three ships under his command.
1. USS Stargazer. Heavily damaged and abandoned (only to be recovered by the Ferengi)
2. USS Enterprise NCC1701-D (albeit under the acting command of Riker while the Captain had abandoned his ship to play around with some bizarre temporal distortion--another grave offense)
3. USS Enterprise NCC1701-E in conflict with the Romulans in ST:Nemesis (mind you, I haven't seen it, this info comes from spoilers, so may not be accurate--even so, he has still lost two vessels to direct enemy action, one of which he trusted to a subordinate!)

Another point is that he has been captured by one of the Federation's most feared enemies, the Borg and his mind was likely ransacked in order to gain additional knowledge to assist the assimilation of the Federation.

Can there be any real doubt that Picard should be summarily court-martialed?
Can there be any doubt that there needs to be a real review of the process for selecting command officers in Starfleet?

[atheistboy]

You cannot justify a court-martial simply because an enemy was able to gain information from an unwilling victim. If the person knowingly and willingly gave information, then yes, a court martial would be the correct course of action. If Starfleet regulations are anything like the U.S. Army's, then this is what would happen.

The Borg DID use Picard's knowledge at Wolf 359 and the battle of First Contact. But, on the other hand, Picard was able to use HIS knowledge of Borg cube weakness that allowed the Federation to destroy the cube. But, the Borg should have realized that Picard knew about that weakness, so they should have adapted to it and... Oh no, I've gone cross-eyed.

[Colonel Olrik]

3. USS Enterprise NCC1701-E in conflict with the Romulans in ST:Nemesis (mind you, I haven't seen it, this info comes from spoilers, so may not be accurate--even so, he has still lost two vessels to direct enemy action, one of which he trusted to a subordinate!)

Oh, I'm so going to kill you

I had managed to keep away from spoilers, until NOW.

[SpyderGS]

Sorry, spoiler was unintended. If it's any consolation, one of the trailers shows the E-E ramming another vessel.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Well, in light of his defense against the Borg in First Contact, he'd have to BDZ a planet before they'd relieve him of his commnad. Losing ships to superior (or even equal) forces is no shame, in fact it is to be expected.

[Alyeska]

They ought to give the Enterprise back to Jellico.

[Shocker]

Darn spoilers...

[Typhonis 1]

Apoint Baldy as an Ambassador

[Captain tycho]

Apoint Baldy as an Ambassador

No, appoint Baldy as Chief Example of Screwing up.

[Zaku-chan]

3. USS Enterprise NCC1701-E in conflict with the Romulans in ST:Nemesis (mind you, I haven't seen it, this info comes from spoilers, so may not be accurate--even so, he has still lost two vessels to direct enemy action, one of which he trusted to a subordinate!)

GODDAMMIT, I HATE YOU!!!!

Anway, considering that the ships were all lost under extreme circumstances (at least the first two were *glower*) and not due to his own incompetance, I say no.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Apoint Baldy as an Ambassador

He Already functions as an ambassador, why not make it official?

[SpyderGS]

IIRC Stargazer was te victim of an unprovoked attack of a Ferengi (unidentified at that time) ship. Picard ordered abandon ship after sustaining heavy damage.even though years later the ship was still in good enough shape for the Ferengi to get it moving under it's own power. That sounds a bit like premature ejection.

In Generations, the opposing force was a 20 year old BoP (I think Riker even made a comment to that effect). A ship whose weapons should have had minimal effect against E-D's hull. Here we moving into issues with construction and design, however. In ST II:WoK we see Enterprise and Reliant slugging it out toe to toe and Enterprise taking heavy damage to engineering. So this portion goes to the engineering failure threads...
In anycase, the captain had permitted a subordinate to take command of his vessel in the face of enemy action while trapsing about on some odd-ball mission that by any realistic standard had little to no chance of succeeding.

E-E: no concrete information.

Losing in the face of superior forces is not anything to be overly conserned about. Likely his command would be returned after a board of inquiry. But after a second incident where the captain wasn't even present? This raises serious questions about his command ability and judgement.

Anyone have any other examples of less than stellar judgement from Picard?[/i]

[SpyderGS]

Again, I apologize for the apparent spoiler--actually I hope it's wrong, the Sov is a much more purpose built craft than the Galaxy and aesthetically more attractive.

Of course that is one of Starfleet's design criteria, aesthetically pleasing.

Anyway, <paints big red target on self> go ahead and take the shots for the spoiler. I deserve it.

[Typhonis 1]

Leting Hugh return to the Colective without installing the holographic logic bomb

[Zaku-chan]

The destruction of the Ent-D is more of a testament to the flawed design of the Galaxy-class than incompetance on the part of its commander.

[Alyeska]

The destruction of the Ent-D is more of a testament to the flawed design of the Galaxy-class than incompetance on the part of its commander.

Incorrect. In Generations the E-D sustained relatively heavy damage to its engineering section. Given the amount of fire the Engineering section recieved over the length of time, it is absurd that Riker lost the battle. He should have fired a massive forward torpedo spread followed up by repeated phaser fire while he made a 180 to bring his rear launcher to bear to finish the BoP off (provided it wasn't already dead). We already KNOW that the E-D is capable of such manuevers and firepower, Riker is a complete idiot for not using it.

[Col. Crackpot]

if this is true and the E-E goes on off to the great scrapyard in the sy that will be two enterprises picard cracks up.... hell even jim kirk only lost one! lol

[Col. Crackpot]

The destruction of the Ent-D is more of a testament to the flawed design of the Galaxy-class than incompetance on the part of its commander.

Incorrect. In Generations the E-D sustained relatively heavy damage to its engineering section. Given the amount of fire the Engineering section recieved over the length of time, it is absurd that Riker lost the battle. He should have fired a massive forward torpedo spread followed up by repeated phaser fire while he made a 180 to bring his rear launcher to bear to finish the BoP off (provided it wasn't already dead). We already KNOW that the E-D is capable of such manuevers and firepower, Riker is a complete idiot for not using it.

coulda woulda shoulda

now had Riker done that B&B wouln't have been able to make a pretty new ship for First Contact! lol besides, Troi was at the helm, what the fuck did you expect!

that battle didn't bother me so much as that stupid goddamned joystick riker used in insurrection.

[SpyderGS]

Kirk made a conscious decison to self destruct the E-nil to keep it out of enemy hands.

Picard left his ship in control of a subordinate, who lost the ship to enemy action arguably through tactical incompetence.

Furthermore, the system the E-D was lost in was inhabited by a race on the verge of space travel. Leaving the wreckage behind would have violated the precious Prime Directive.

Alyeska was spot-on. Riker should have handed the BoP it's ass and then conducted an orbital phaser strike to neutralize Soran (or whatever his name was).

[Col. Crackpot]

Alyeska was spot-on. Riker should have handed the BoP it's ass and then conducted an orbital phaser strike to neutralize Soran (or whatever his name was).

i'm not saying he wasn't. i was merely criticizing B&B for stupid plot device

[Perinquus]

="Col. Crackpot
coulda woulda shoulda

now had Riker done that B&B wouln't have been able to make a pretty new ship for First Contact! lol besides, Troi was at the helm, what the fuck did you expect!

that battle didn't bother me so much as that stupid goddamned joystick riker used in insurrection.

Actually, I have to agree with what Mike said about that on his "Insurrection" page:

Commander Riker's "manual steering column" was the subject of much derision among Federation cultists when STI came out. It is ironic that they would choose to criticize one of the least objectionable aspects of STI.

There is nothing wrong with a joystick as a method of controlling a starship. It isn't very precise, but it is fast. Much faster than verbally instructing helmsmen to "change course to 158 mark 60", and far more intuitive. Extreme precision is necessary for long-distance navigation and weapons fire, but it is secondary to speed of response when it comes to hard maneuvering. Speed of response is critical in hard maneuvers, and it is unattainable with a naval helm control scheme in which an officer barks verbal direction changes to a helmsman.

The purpose of the trigger appears to be some form of throttle control.

[Alyeska]

Now, after some idea exchanging, Chris O'Farrell and myself came up with a nice idea for how Generations SHOULD have ended.

Picard and Kirk exit the Nexus with phaser rifles (ever notice how Kirk changed uniforms when he went from the E-B to the Nexus, then had the NEW uniform when leaving the Nexus?) and quickly kill Soran and then fire max power and destroy the missile.

However before they did this, this is how the battle went.

Lursa and Betor being the renegades they are payed for a fleet of sorts. It is made up of 2 Vorchas and 3 BoPs. To play with the E-D they pierce its shields and tear it up a little. Riker quickly realizes he has to do something and orders Worf to keep the shields auto modulating to change their frequency. Then he fires a 10 torpedo volley on one Vorcha (the one without Lursa and Betor) and keeps a massive barrage of phasers on it as he does a 180 to bring the aft launcher to bear where he hits it with another 10 torpedoes destroying the Vorcha. At this point Lursa and Betor realize the mistake they made. The 3 BoPs chase after the E-D (which started to run after making the 180) however with some clever manuevers Riker uses his superior firepower to quickly destroy each BoP. Now with moderate damage the E-D attempts to engage the Vorcha and both are fighting to a relative stand still. The Vorcha draws off to come around again, but is temporarily out of range. Riker then gets word and beams up Picard and Kirk. Once onbard the warp core goes critical. With little time remaining the crew evacuate the drive section, however Kirk makes it to the Battle Bridge before seperation is complete. The Saucer makes a quick rerreat while Kirk takes the Stardrive section. He aims for the Vorcha and fires a torpedo volley to cripple the Vorchas front shields. He then rams the Vorcha at full speed and hits at about the same time the warp core detonates. The explossion consumes both ships. The Saucer section escapes and is later picked up by the Faragut and tractored back home.

Thus you have a kickass battle, Kirk dies, and the E-D is effectively destroyed.

[SpyderGS]

Now, after some idea exchanging, Chris O'Farrell and myself came up with a nice idea for how Generations SHOULD have ended.

Picard and Kirk exit the Nexus with phaser rifles (ever notice how Kirk changed uniforms when he went from the E-B to the Nexus, then had the NEW uniform when leaving the Nexus?) and quickly kill Soran and then fire max power and destroy the missile.

However before they did this, this is how the battle went.

Lursa and Betor being the renegades they are payed for a fleet of sorts. It is made up of 2 Vorchas and 3 BoPs. To play with the E-D they pierce its shields and tear it up a little. Riker quickly realizes he has to do something and orders Worf to keep the shields auto modulating to change their frequency. Then he fires a 10 torpedo volley on one Vorcha (the one without Lursa and Betor) and keeps a massive barrage of phasers on it as he does a 180 to bring the aft launcher to bear where he hits it with another 10 torpedoes destroying the Vorcha. At this point Lursa and Betor realize the mistake they made. The 3 BoPs chase after the E-D (which started to run after making the 180) however with some clever manuevers Riker uses his superior firepower to quickly destroy each BoP. Now with moderate damage the E-D attempts to engage the Vorcha and both are fighting to a relative stand still. The Vorcha draws off to come around again, but is temporarily out of range. Riker then gets word and beams up Picard and Kirk. Once onbard the warp core goes critical. With little time remaining the crew evacuate the drive section, however Kirk makes it to the Battle Bridge before seperation is complete. The Saucer makes a quick rerreat while Kirk takes the Stardrive section. He aims for the Vorcha and fires a torpedo volley to cripple the Vorchas front shields. He then rams the Vorcha at full speed and hits at about the same time the warp core detonates. The explossion consumes both ships. The Saucer section escapes and is later picked up by the Faragut and tractored back home.

Thus you have a kickass battle, Kirk dies, and the E-D is effectively destroyed.

Berman and Braga should go back to their coloring books. That's good. Much better than the crap I paid seven bucks to see.

Part of the issue here is undoubtedly the PCness of just about every post-TOS show. It's bad to fight your enemies until you've tried to talk and theyve slapped you half a dozen times. Then you're allowed to fight--ineffectually.

Wasn't one of the original premises on TNG that captains are forbidden by regulation to go on away teams except under extraordinary circumstances(there's a specific episode, though I can't remember which)? What happened to that? It seems as though after a while there was an attempt to go back to TOS operating mode where the captain leads every away team.
So in Generations and Insurrection Picard willfully violates that regulation. In both instances his ship comes under fire during his absence and in one case is lost.
In TOS, generally, Kirk made it back to Enterprise to command during a combat situation. If he couldn't, he found a way to communicate and gave orders (General Order 24 anyone?). In WoK Spock had Enterprise keep the planetoid between her and Reliant until they could get Kirk back aboard. He did not attempt to engage Reliant (though that was primarily due to the heavy damage already sustained).

[Lord Pounder]

i thought the BoP the Klingon sisters used was closed to being 80 years old, as far as ships go 20 years isn't that old.

[Zoink]

I think Picard's worst mistake was failing to use Hugh to destroy the borg.

Regardless of wether it would have been successfull, Picard was fully aware of the borg threat and should have followed orders. If I was Sisko I would have kicked Picard's ass.

Thankfully, starfleets 'greatest' hero ever, Captain Janeway, dealt the crippling blow... *gack*