Did Mace believe himself to be "The Chosen One?"

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2006-01-31 12:36am

While finally getting around to reading Mike's ROTS revelations it just clicked: did Mace secretly believe himself to be the prophesied savior who would bring balance to the Force?

It would explain his taking an instant dislike to Anakin, the young upstart who was being groomed to usurp the destiny that was rightfully his.
It would also explain his development of the Vaapad technique as being a product of his pursuit of that destiny.
Hell, it would even explain his use of a purple lightsabre: a symbol of the balance he strove to attain.

Has this even been suggested before? Or did I just post the biggest "duh" of all time?

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-01-31 07:50am

Interesting theory, especially in light of the fact - IIRC - that Mace's old friend Dooku had such delusions of grandeur.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-01-31 11:42am

Come to think of it, Mace almost did destroy the Sith, seeing how he had the last surviving Sith Lord at the tip of his blade. Only Anakin (the true Chosen One) stopped Mace, thus allowing the former to fulfil his destiny two decades later. Interesting!

Still, the reason why Qui-Gon believed Anakin was the prophecized Chosen One was due to two separate events occurring concurrently: the re-emergence of the Sith, and an individual of incredible strength in the Force being discovered.
IIRC Mace was one of the Council members who doubted that the Sith still existed, so this (slightly) discredits the idea that he had believed himself to be the the Chosen One.

Dooku had similar delusions about his own destiny? Hmm, then why did he join the Sith? Anyway, source? I'd like to read more about it.

Jedi Guardian · Post by **Jedi Guardian** » 2006-01-31 12:43pm

Cykeisme wrote:Come to think of it, Mace almost did destroy the Sith, seeing how he had the last surviving Sith Lord at the tip of his blade. Only Anakin (the true Chosen One) stopped Mace, thus allowing the former to fulfil his destiny two decades later. Interesting!

Still, the reason why Qui-Gon believed Anakin was the prophecized Chosen One was due to two separate events occurring concurrently: the re-emergence of the Sith, and an individual of incredible strength in the Force being discovered.
IIRC Mace was one of the Council members who doubted that the Sith still existed, so this (slightly) discredits the idea that he had believed himself to be the the Chosen One.

Dooku had similar delusions about his own destiny? Hmm, then why did he join the Sith? Anyway, source? I'd like to read more about it.

NOOOOOO! if any one saw my screw up post they would know that Palpitine was no were close to losing and before you post something like that read the main site I learned that the hard way by being burnt by the senior members but aside the point maybe Mace did believe it and had jelousy against Anikan and held a grudge against him

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2006-01-31 01:03pm

dooku didnt believe to be the choosen one, but he thought that he was one of the greatest jedi ever and also hungered for power...

though I do believe that this could apply for windu... he was even more powerful than Dooku and always had this "bossi-aura" around him, suggesting that most others were inferior to him

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2006-01-31 01:16pm

Jedi Guardian wrote:NOOOOOO! if any one saw my screw up post they would know that Palpitine was no were close to losing and before you post something like that read the main site I learned that the hard way by being burnt by the senior members but aside the point maybe Mace did believe it and had jelousy against Anikan and held a grudge against him

...Dude, runons=bad.

Anyway, what was the prophecy? What did it say? It's possible that one of the interpretations didn't require the existance of the Sith.

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2006-01-31 01:21pm

by the way, I'd like to add: was the prophecy really fulfilled? i mean the sith didnt really die out, dark jedi existed after anakin killed the emperor(even himself was on the scene again)... i know after the emperor, das was no dark lord of the sith left, but the real balance of the force wasn't archieved, was it?

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-01-31 01:33pm

The prophecy was that the Chosen One would destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force.

Outside SoD, in canon movie continuity, the prophecy and the events that result in its fulfilment are the core of Lucas' grand story. Sexcellent!
In SoD, bringing in the official EU.. well, the Sith were destroyed, it never said anything about other Dark Side adepts, who presumably are insignificant compared to the might of the real Sith Order (which is gone).

Jedi Guardian wrote:NOOOOOO! if any one saw my screw up post they would know that Palpitine was no were close to losing and before you post something like that read the main site I learned that the hard way by being burnt by the senior members but aside the point maybe Mace did believe it and had jelousy against Anikan and held a grudge against him

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over?
Would you please rephrase all that, sir?

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2006-01-31 02:05pm

Cykeisme wrote:The prophecy was that the Chosen One would destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force.

Outside SoD, in canon movie continuity, the prophecy and the events that result in its fulfilment are the core of Lucas' grand story. Sexcellent!
In SoD, bringing in the official EU.. well, the Sith were destroyed, it never said anything about other Dark Side adepts, who presumably are insignificant compared to the might of the real Sith Order (which is gone).

yes but there emperor was brought back to life, and his realm was not ended by anakin skywalker... i do know that the movies make a perfect saga, but the EU spoils it...

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-01-31 04:06pm

Jedi Guardian wrote:NOOOOOO! if any one saw my screw up post they would know that Palpitine was no were close to losing and before you post something like that read the main site I learned that the hard way by being burnt by the senior members but aside the point maybe Mace did believe it and had jelousy against Anikan and held a grudge against him

Mace Windu did tell Anakin he would trust him if Sidious turned out to be a Sith Lord; and any hostile behavior on Windu's part toward Anakin can be attributed to a reaction to Anakin's arrogant outburst at the Council:
"What?! This is an outrage! There has never been anyone on the Council who was not a master!"
"Sit down, young Skywalker."

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-01-31 04:36pm

there's few lines in ROTS that explain why Mace Windu felt that he couldn't take Anakin with him and they also make clear that dispite his distrust of Anakin he did belive that Anakin was the Chosen One.

AK_Jedi · Post by **AK_Jedi** » 2006-01-31 05:12pm

In AOTC, I really did not get the feeling that Mace was jealous or at odds with Anakin. In fact, he was trying to quiet Obi-Wan's concerns about Anakin. I think that Anakin's arrogance in the clone wars and in the events of ROTS made Windu hostile towards Anakin.

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-01-31 05:21pm

I don't think there was any evidence at all he though he was the chosen one... and his reasons for disliking Anakin became more and more obvious as Anakin got older and more and more like a spoilt child. It does show the virtue of the Dark Side... turning that little shit into one of the coolest characters in SciFi

Jedi Guardian wrote: NOOOOOO! if any one saw my screw up post they would know that Palpitine was no were close to losing and before you post something like that read the main site I learned that the hard way by being burnt by the senior members but aside the point maybe Mace did believe it and had jelousy against Anikan and held a grudge against him

I saw your "screw up post" and was going to reply to it, as I think he did throw the fight.. despite what is said on the main site, I still think it's open to interpretation.

Jedi Guardian · Post by **Jedi Guardian** » 2006-01-31 05:25pm

You know I didn't think about this but maybe Mace was worried about Anikan, nah with that expretion all the time on his face he didn't worry a rat's area about him!

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2006-01-31 05:29pm

Jedi Guardian wrote: NOOOOOO! if any one saw my screw up post they would know that Palpitine was no were close to losing and before you post something like that read the main site I learned that the hard way by being burnt by the senior members but aside the point maybe Mace did believe it and had jelousy against Anikan and held a grudge against him

Since its possible you're foriegn I'll not yell at you to much, but seriously check what you've typed before you post it.

Plus, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick in regards to your "screw up" post, the main site's view point is that Palpatine did't throw the fight and Windu beat him fair and square.

In either case I still don't see WTF it has to do with the topic at hand anyway.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-01-31 05:35pm

Jedi Guardian wrote:You know I didn't think about this but maybe Mace was worried about Anikan, nah with that expretion all the time on his face he didn't worry a rat's area about him!

How does this follow? Why should Mace "Badass Motherfucker" Windu's facial expressions be indicative at all of his true feelings toward Anakin?

Jedi Guardian · Post by **Jedi Guardian** » 2006-01-31 05:52pm

Surlethe wrote:How does this follow? Why should Mace "Badass Motherfucker" Windu's facial expressions be indicative at all of his true feelings toward Anakin?

Have you even notice that he holds the most grudge against that boy than any being in the galaxy can have? He has to hate the kid, he has to have done something to Mace to have earned that, notice i'm not saying he's the only one that gets Mace's look maybe he has some kind of problem like he hates everyone.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-01-31 06:14pm

Jedi Guardian wrote:
Surlethe wrote:How does this follow? Why should Mace "Badass Motherfucker" Windu's facial expressions be indicative at all of his true feelings toward Anakin?
Have you even notice that he holds the most grudge against that boy than any being in the galaxy can have? He has to hate the kid, he has to have done something to Mace to have earned that, notice i'm not saying he's the only one that gets Mace's look maybe he has some kind of problem like he hates everyone.

And how does that answer my point? You first assume he holds a grudge, and then that he actually hates the kid, and don't realize it's a red herring.

Jedi Guardian · Post by **Jedi Guardian** » 2006-01-31 06:19pm

Are you one of those guys that has to make your point or find flaw in someone elses?

AK_Jedi · Post by **AK_Jedi** » 2006-01-31 07:21pm

Jedi Guardian wrote: Have you even notice that he holds the most grudge against that boy than any being in the galaxy can have? He has to hate the kid, he has to have done something to Mace to have earned that, notice i'm not saying he's the only one that gets Mace's look maybe he has some kind of problem like he hates everyone.

You must have missed my post where I said that there is no evidence that he had a grudge on Anakin pre-ROTS.

My explaination is that he was not a terribly trusting jedi in the first place. The fact that he was stern with Anakin in ROTS may just be the way he treats anybody who thinks there extra-special. Especially since he had spent the last two years up to his neck in an extremely distructive war. War has done crazier things to people.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-01-31 08:07pm

Jedi Guardian wrote:Are you one of those guys that has to make your point or find flaw in someone elses?

What the fuck are you going on about? This is a debating board; you made an argument, and I responded; it's simple as that. If you'd made a valid counterpoint, I would have either continued the debate, or conceded; you didn't, and I pointed that out.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-01-31 08:13pm

Darth Revan wrote:there's few lines in ROTS that explain why Mace Windu felt that he couldn't take Anakin with him and they also make clear that dispite his distrust of Anakin he did belive that Anakin was the Chosen One.

I guess lines from the novelization explicitly stating that Mace's beliefs pretty much dispels the idea in the OP, I think.
It was still an interesting thought, though!
Anyway, I suppose Mace's disdain toward Anakin was all warranted; Anakin was indeed being a whiny bitch on occassion.

Regarding Sidious throwing the duel, I find it hard to believe that some people still have trouble with it. Occam's Razor, cinematic evidence, passages from the novels, even statements from Lucasfilm, and it's still an issue in some people's heads?

Sidious is a far greater villain than one who relies on brute strength; he can lose and still win. Besides, his defeat at Mace's hands simply amplifies the pivotal importance of Anakin's role in shaping the fate of the galaxy.

Jedi Guardian wrote:Are you one of those guys that has to make your point or find flaw in someone elses?

Such attributes are lauded, expected of (and possessed by many) members of this forum. I hope you don't have trouble dealing with it.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2006-02-01 02:47am

Palpatine did not throw the fight. This has been made clear from multiple sources.

However...

I don't think that Sidious was fighting with everything he had. Sidious's eyes did not turn Sith yellow until his Force lightning barrage after losing his lightsaber, at which point it was essentially too late. Additionally, Sidious's movements and use of the Force were generally more impressive in his later duel with Yoda. I contend that Sidious was not tapping the dark side to his maximum potential in the duel with Windu, probably in order to prevent prematurely changing his appearance, but still expected to win. His defeat by Windu was an unpleasant surprise.

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-02-01 03:33am

Eframepilot wrote:Palpatine did not throw the fight. This has been made clear from multiple sources.

I know this was the conclusion reached on the main site, but are there other sources? It's just that to me it seemed obvious he was playing possum. It's the prevention of his death that forced Anakin to cross the line. Up until that point it he was not beyond hope.. after being instrumental in Maces death there was no turning back and Palp was now his master.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2006-02-01 04:34am

PayBack wrote:
Eframepilot wrote:Palpatine did not throw the fight. This has been made clear from multiple sources.
I know this was the conclusion reached on the main site, but are there other sources? It's just that to me it seemed obvious he was playing possum. It's the prevention of his death that forced Anakin to cross the line. Up until that point it he was not beyond hope.. after being instrumental in Maces death there was no turning back and Palp was now his master.

Lucas said something to that extent in the commentaries. The most one could rationalize is that Palpatine saw himself losing and Anakin arriving just in the nick of time and let it happen, like Muad'dib's self-consuming vision in Dune Messiah.