Psionics and other varient magics in D&D.

[SirNitram]

You have a funny definition of 'consistantly', or your DM is an imbecile that lets you perform mounted charges consistantly in all sorts of enviroments that wouldn't support this.

Most of my DMs campains have been in the non-dungeon dwelling types, and the vast majority of the times mounted charges were possible. Their were times when charging would have been impossible.

Then they're imbeciles. If your players consistantly one-hit all opponents with charges, remove the ability to charge to amplify the difficulty. Christ, you need this shit spelled out? Crowded city street, inside a building, whatever.

You're one of those imbeciles who thinks a term must be absolutely digital, on/off, aren't you?

Your standards for powergaming suck, I like the definition that goes "When ever you choose a characteristic due to a numerical benifit you are powergaming".

I warned you not to lie, ignorant shithead.

For one thing, if someone uses that phrase, it probably means they're one, about to launch into a campaign to justify their highly measured min-maxing. If you've ever used the term 'dump stat', you're probably powergaming. If you've ever engaged in semantics to gain a specific power, it's powergaming. If you ever identify with Red Mage of 8-Bit theatre, you're a powergamer. And if you can consistantly throw out 3 or 4 times as much HP as your opponent's have, without having a 'flare-out'(See: The Psion nova), you're a powergamer.

Your words are conspicuously absent. That'd be because you're a lying turd.

Clearly, you think my definitions suck because they're actually quite sensible but you're guilty of them.

Once again you strawman from 'powergaming' into 'If you make yourself even slightly useful..'. Do it again and this gets unpleasant, because you're lying about my argument, shitstain.

Bullshit. Their is no strawman, a warhulk buying a ring of spellstoring for divine power is an unacceptable level of power gaming for me. Unless he would be useless with out it. How the fuck could you get that that would not be power gaming? Maybe I just wasn't clear.

You're not even fucking clear now. Your sentences contradict themselves.

[Master of Ossus]

Everyone here clearly knows much more about RPG's than I could ever hope to know, so if I may temporarily draw attention away from the flames that are flying back and forth in this thread I have a question:

Can prestige/class combinations (those used by powergamers, not used by powergamers, and those designed by brain-dead imbeciles intent on making unplayable characters by combining classes with no synergy bonuses and with impossible stat allocations) be established on a bell-curve or is there some other distribution that they would conform to? If so, are the core classes in the center of the curve, or somewhere else? How much more powerful than a core class do you have to be in order to be considered a powergamer (eg. 1/2 of a standard deviation)?

[SirNitram]

Everyone here clearly knows much more about RPG's than I could ever hope to know, so if I may temporarily draw attention away from the flames that are flying back and forth in this thread I have a question:

Can prestige/class combinations (those used by powergamers, not used by powergamers, and those designed by brain-dead imbeciles intent on making unplayable characters by combining classes with no synergy bonuses and with impossible stat allocations) be established on a bell-curve or is there some other distribution that they would conform to? If so, are the core classes in the center of the curve, or somewhere else? How much more powerful than a core class do you have to be in order to be considered a powergamer (eg. 1/2 of a standard deviation)?

Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, and Cleric are middle of the curve. Monk is noticably higher(Monk with Vow of Poverty is fucking broken), druid is a bit higher, and the rest is alot of difficult choices, so they're not as broken.

Of Prestidge Classes.. There's too many to give a rundown. All give some benefit, even from the lowly Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge up to Dragon Ascendent. Broken ones would include 3.0's Dragon Disciple(Go up a size category.. Everyone forgot that that add's +8 to Strength and a bunch of other things), anything with 'Hulk' in the name(Hulking Hurler can produce tens of thousands of damage points in an attack, complete with an 'attack an AC 10 target and strike everyone in an area' instead of against your opponent's AC.), and the original releases of 'Shifter'.

I hate to give a wishy-washy answer, but it's partially dependent on your group and DM. Some groups get into high-power campaigns even for their level; a high 'Wahoo!' factor can be fun. As a rule of thumb, though, steer away from the Complete books if you worry about balance, and the Core Books stuff has the best balance work. Again, wary of the monk.

[lance]

Most of my DMs campains have been in the non-dungeon dwelling types, and the vast majority of the times mounted charges were possible. Their were times when charging would have been impossible.

Then they're imbeciles. If your players consistantly one-hit all opponents with charges, remove the ability to charge to amplify the difficulty. Christ, you need this shit spelled out? Crowded city street, inside a building, whatever.

Were possible Not were taken. If they were taken the vast majority of the time, stated they were taken the vast majority of the time.

You're one of those imbeciles who thinks a term must be absolutely digital, on/off, aren't you?

Your standards for powergaming suck, I like the definition that goes "When ever you choose a characteristic due to a numerical benifit you are powergaming".

I warned you not to lie, ignorant shithead.

For one thing, if someone uses that phrase, it probably means they're one, about to launch into a campaign to justify their highly measured min-maxing. If you've ever used the term 'dump stat', you're probably powergaming. If you've ever engaged in semantics to gain a specific power, it's powergaming. If you ever identify with Red Mage of 8-Bit theatre, you're a powergamer. And if you can consistantly throw out 3 or 4 times as much HP as your opponent's have, without having a 'flare-out'(See: The Psion nova), you're a powergamer.

Your words are conspicuously absent. That'd be because you're a lying turd.

Clearly, you think my definitions suck because they're actually quite sensible but you're guilty of them.

You are fucking retarded. Your standards for power gaming suck. I like the definition that goes____ , Now what makes you think that what goes on the line has any fucking thing to do with your definition? I powergame to a reasonable level, unless I go about using your fucking retarded definition. Then no power gaming occurs.

Once again you strawman from 'powergaming' into 'If you make yourself even slightly useful..'. Do it again and this gets unpleasant, because you're lying about my argument, shitstain.

Bullshit. Their is no strawman, a warhulk buying a ring of spellstoring for divine power is an unacceptable level of power gaming for me. Unless he would be useless with out it. How the fuck could you get that that would not be power gaming? Maybe I just wasn't clear.

You're not even fucking clear now. Your sentences contradict themselves.

[Imperial Overlord]

I essentially concure with Nitram. In addition to the Complete series, I am wary of the Book of Exalted Deeds (where the Vow of Poverty monk comes from), Spellfire (no actual experience with that yet) and the Incantrix (I like the concept not the execution).

My players don't play monks, so I haven't had much experience with them. I will note that a half dragon monk in City of the Spider Queen was extremely brutal, so I am inclinded to agree with Nitram.

[SirNitram]

I essentially concure with Nitram. In addition to the Complete series, I am wary of the Book of Exalted Deeds (where the Vow of Poverty monk comes from), Spellfire (no actual experience with that yet) and the Incantrix (I like the concept not the execution).

My players don't play monks, so I haven't had much experience with them. I will note that a half dragon monk in City of the Spider Queen was extremely brutal, so I am inclinded to agree with Nitram.

Spellfire can be abused horribly. If you want to see it taken to extremes, search the archives for an old D&D game played out in this forum; my character utilized it for ridiculous amounts of ass-whoop. But he was an extremely specialized build, with nothing but uber-spellfire. The Spellfire feat is okay as long as you keep an eye on Spellfire Wielder and Spellfire Heirophant PrC's; put together, they're ten kinds of fucked up.

If you'd prefer vastly better balanced spellfire, check the Knight Of The Weave PrC from Champions of Valour. It has limited use of it, and only from it's own spell slots. But still has that thematic flavour.

[SirNitram]

[Were possible Not were taken. If they were taken the vast majority of the time, stated they were taken the vast majority of the time.

Then you have an odd definition of 'consistant'.

You are fucking retarded. Your standards for power gaming suck. I like the definition that goes____ , Now what makes you think that what goes on the line has any fucking thing to do with your definition? I powergame to a reasonable level, unless I go about using your fucking retarded definition. Then no power gaming occurs.

You clearly have some fucked up worldview where Powergaming is anything but a stupid, petty act.

[lance]

[Were possible Not were taken. If they were taken the vast majority of the time, stated they were taken the vast majority of the time.

Then you have an odd definition of 'consistant'.

None of the players were Mounted chargers. Which is why I said would have been possible.

You are fucking retarded. Your standards for power gaming suck. I like the definition that goes____ , Now what makes you think that what goes on the line has any fucking thing to do with your definition? I powergame to a reasonable level, unless I go about using your fucking retarded definition. Then no power gaming occurs.

You clearly have some fucked up worldview where Powergaming is anything but a stupid, petty act.

No, if you choose something due to the thematics, flavour of it, or because you just think it would be cool, its not power gaming. Not to say it won't be broken.

[SirNitram]

[Were possible Not were taken. If they were taken the vast majority of the time, stated they were taken the vast majority of the time.

Then you have an odd definition of 'consistant'.

None of the players were Mounted chargers. Which is why I said would have been possible.

Christ, you... You're this illiterate, aren't you?

A mounted charger can't be 'consistantly' throwing out the type of damage I mentioned, because any DM worth the name will adjust to the tactic so it's not always availiable. Thus 'consistant' goes away.

You are fucking retarded. Your standards for power gaming suck. I like the definition that goes____ , Now what makes you think that what goes on the line has any fucking thing to do with your definition? I powergame to a reasonable level, unless I go about using your fucking retarded definition. Then no power gaming occurs.

You clearly have some fucked up worldview where Powergaming is anything but a stupid, petty act.

No, if you choose something due to the thematics, flavour of it, or because you just think it would be cool, its not power gaming. Not to say it won't be broken.

That doesn't contradict what I said. So I don't know why you prepended it with 'No'.

[lance]

Then you have an odd definition of 'consistant'.

None of the players were Mounted chargers. Which is why I said would have been possible.

Christ, you... You're this illiterate, aren't you?

A mounted charger can't be 'consistantly' throwing out the type of damage I mentioned, because any DM worth the name will adjust to the tactic so it's not always availiable. Thus 'consistant' goes away.

The same can be done with anything I can think of.

You are fucking retarded. Your standards for power gaming suck. I like the definition that goes____ , Now what makes you think that what goes on the line has any fucking thing to do with your definition? I powergame to a reasonable level, unless I go about using your fucking retarded definition. Then no power gaming occurs.

You clearly have some fucked up worldview where Powergaming is anything but a stupid, petty act.

No, if you choose something due to the thematics, flavour of it, or because you just think it would be cool, its not power gaming. Not to say it won't be broken.

That doesn't contradict what I said. So I don't know why you prepended it with 'No'.

You said, that my definition is anything but a stupid, petty act. Which means that picking an ability because it was cool would follow under power gaming. Which it isn't.

[SirNitram]

You said, that my definition is anything but a stupid, petty act. Which means that picking an ability because it was cool would follow under power gaming. Which it isn't.

....No. You're definately illiterate. Powergaming is bad. Merely making yourself good at something is not powergaming. Powergaming is exploiting.

[lance]

You said, that my definition is anything but a stupid, petty act. Which means that picking an ability because it was cool would follow under power gaming. Which it isn't.

....No. You're definately illiterate. Powergaming is bad. Merely making yourself good at something is not powergaming. Powergaming is exploiting.

No, that is munchkinism

[SirNitram]

You said, that my definition is anything but a stupid, petty act. Which means that picking an ability because it was cool would follow under power gaming. Which it isn't.

....No. You're definately illiterate. Powergaming is bad. Merely making yourself good at something is not powergaming. Powergaming is exploiting.

No, that is munchkinism

'I will change synonyms into different words so I never have to concede a point!' Okay, lance, now you just look like a spoilt child. Shut up now.

[lance]

....No. You're definately illiterate. Powergaming is bad. Merely making yourself good at something is not powergaming. Powergaming is exploiting.

No, that is munchkinism

'I will change synonyms into different words so I never have to concede a point!' Okay, lance, now you just look like a spoilt child. Shut up now.

They have differant meanings. They are similar, in a rectange square sense. All munchinism is powergaming, but not all powergaming is munchkinism.

[SirNitram]

They have differant meanings. They are similar, in a rectange square sense. All munchinism is powergaming, but not all powergaming is munchkinism.

Given that neither is in real dictionaries, that's a hilariously absolute declaration you're making based on naught but your own authority. Which, by the way, is zero.

[Imperial Overlord]

They have differant meanings. They are similar, in a rectange square sense. All munchinism is powergaming, but not all powergaming is munchkinism.

BAHAHAHAHA! This is the most hamfisted attempt to wiggle your way out of a concession in a while. Powergaming is what munchkins do when they aren't cheating.

[lance]

They have differant meanings. They are similar, in a rectange square sense. All munchinism is powergaming, but not all powergaming is munchkinism.

Given that neither is in real dictionaries, that's a hilariously absolute declaration you're making based on naught but your own authority. Which, by the way, is zero.

Meh, they are definitions that I have seen used, and I spend alot of time on the Character Optimization boards at wizards, which is the only reason why I could bring up the warhulk divinepower thing. Munchkinism being powergaming taken to an extreme, using loopholes or out right cheating. They are also the definitions that I use personally. There really should be some sort of gamers dictionarys for these sort of things.

[Imperial Overlord]

The entire Character Optimization board at Wizards is powergaming taken to the extreme. Of course no one who posts there regularily is going to admit that their sun elf demilich epic character or half ogre hulking hurler/war hulk or whatever is an exercise in disgusting munchkinism so of course what they do isn't munchkinism.

I check that board infrequently because it is a munchkin convention and it nicely lists things a DM should beware of under the mantle of "good character builds."

[SirNitram]

Anyone who thinks the board that came up with Pun-Pun, the Omnsificer, and infinite damage loops is a reliable source on an objective view of powergaming is a fucking imbecile.

[lance]

The entire Character Optimization board at Wizards is powergaming taken to the extreme. Of course no one who posts there regularily is going to admit that their sun elf demilich epic character or half ogre hulking hurler/war hulk or whatever is an exercise in disgusting munchkinism so of course what they do isn't munchkinism.

I check that board infrequently because it is a munchkin convention and it nicely lists things a DM should beware of under the mantle of "good character builds."

Yes, one of the things they do is build munchkin characters to see what the rules will allow, not a problem unles they intend to play said characters in a normal campain/adventure. If the DM said hey build 20th level characters. I'm going to send the monster section of the epic level hand book against you in abc order. Then that would be okay in my opinion.

But do you seriously think anybody plays Pun-Pun? And the sun elf Demilich is not a disgusting excercise in munchkinism in and of its self. You need to add epic spells, but that applies to anything with epic spells.

[Imperial Overlord]

And the sun elf Demilich is not a disgusting excercise in munchkinism in and of its self.

The sad thing is you probably don't understand why this statement is ridiculous.

[lance]

And the sun elf Demilich is not a disgusting excercise in munchkinism in and of its self.

The sad thing is you probably don't understand why this statement is ridiculous.

Okay, why is this statement rediculous?

[Imperial Overlord]

Let's see, massive stat boosts, huge armor class, ability to cast Harm (which heals the user) at will, immunity to most spells, excellent protection from most weapons, almost unturnable, spellcasting (with massive stats for bonus spells and DCs), soul stealing, soul eating, and the ability to come back to unlife from your phylactery and your soul gems.

And you don't think there is anything munchkiny about it.

[lance]

Let's see, massive stat boosts, huge armor class, ability to cast Harm (which heals the user) at will, immunity to most spells, excellent protection from most weapons, almost unturnable, spellcasting (with massive stats for bonus spells and DCs), soul stealing, soul eating, and the ability to come back to unlife from your phylactery and your soul gems.

And you don't think there is anything munchkiny about it.

For a +12 level adjustment, crap hp, a million gold pieces, and 40k experiance. I would rather have the 12 levels and equipment frankly. But being a floating skull is cool, but he is just going to be holy worded back to his phyclactery on the first round of combat. Also he has to wait till ECL 35 to cast epic level spells, which are the most broken thing in the game.

[Imperial Overlord]

My copy of the epic handbook shows demilichs to be immune to holy word. Shatter, holy smite, dispel evil, and anything that ignores SR are the only spells that work. Shitty hitpoints (which aren't that much worse than wizard hitpoints) don't matter when you are nearly invulnerable. And you come back to life. Demilich stat and AC bonuses are worth more than a million in defensive items since they stack with other bonuses.

Epic spells are easy to control since they cost a fortune in xp and gp, and most importantly, the DM has to sign off on each and every one of them. But that's obviously not a consideration for you, because any reasonable DM wouldn't allow warhulks or demilich characters either.