Q's powers.. overrated?

[Zoink]

Ah yes Yesterdays eterprise -except the events on that one were like this.

Event alters history - Ship is sent back to correct history but history is still slighly changed.

But the paradox is caused by itself.

Picard looking for the Rift causes the rifts creation but if it didnt exist why was he looking for it and thus creating it - thats a paradox and thus makes no sense.

The events of yesterdays enterprise werent caused by itself, just by some weird time rift.

The 'paradox' of "All Good things" was caused by Q. Q puts Picard in three seperate timelines, one in which an anti-time anomoly exists which Picard will create. Without the Q's interference this time-anomoly would never have existed.... but it can still be considered a paradox for the reasons you stated.


In "yesterday's enterprise": The E-C goes into the future because of a time rift, but if the E-c goes into the future then the E-D's timeline should never have existed.

Ie. If I build a timemachine and go into the future, why would the 'correct' timeline be the one in which I never built the timemachine??? If me NOT building a timemachine is the 'normal' timeline, how did I build it in the first place?

The alternate Picard had to grasp the concept that: his timeline should not exist, and that he had to complete the time loop by sending the E-C back in time.

history is still slighly changed.

But is it? Wong says the same thing. But, how do we know that Tasha's daughter didn't always exist, when we have no evidence that she didn't? Kinda like Data's head was found. It could be one of those timeloops.


--------------

Can someone fill me in on something, as I don't have a photographic memory: did the "normal timeline" E-D fire its weapons or something that helped cause the rift?

[TheDarkling]

Possible I suppose but he fact is Picard causes the temporal rift because he has fore knowledge of it existing =- his actions create it and his actions are based on the fact that the rift exists.

A causes B which Causes A.

But how could B exist if A didnt already? and how could A exist if B didnt?

With the enterprise C they pop into are timeline and we send em back - but the event that caused then to come forward wasnt due to their coming forward.

A caused B which Caused C.

A doesnt depend on anything it caused thus no paradox.

[Zoink]

But I think its a different kind of paradox, kind of like the "I kill my grandfather".

If the E-C goes into the future, how did the 'normal' future ever exist?

If the normal E-D helped cause the rift in the future, how did the normal E-D ever exist to create the rift to erase itself?

Picard solved the Paradox because by sending the E-C back in time, he created a timeloop, that is strange, but at least the loop COULD be considered to always have existed... like how they found Data's head, which leads to events that put the head there.

[TheDarkling]

I see what you are saying but the starting point doesnt require its own actions to be caused.

The other events could have happened without intervention from further down the time line.

They are kinda like a paradox but the one Q creates is a perfect paradox.

[John Clark]

But yes, I did hear Q going on about how this is a test of humanity.... but that's all hogwash because all that Picard was doing was solving a paradox. You'll need to explain to me HOW this paradox is a test of humanity because I don't see the link... because other time paradoxes have been solved by humans, and other humans have sacrificed themselves to save others.

How is this paradox a test? Ask yourself this: could YOU have solved it in Picard's shoes? And be honest, now. If you woke up tomorrow 62 years and an hour later you were 14 years old 2000 miles away, do you really think you could figure it out?

The test wasn't just whether Picard could SOLVE the puzzle, but whether he was open-minded and imaginative enough to recognize the puzzle in the first place, then go on to solve it, and lastly sacrifice his life and the lives of his crew not once but thrice, as the solution to the puzzle demanded.

I'm reasonably sure that that's a kind of test most of us would fail.

[Q]

Wow, I disappear for a long time and this topic is still here.. Since I still don't have the time to continue this exchange, I must apologise for my behavior. I read my earlier posts and I came across extremely rude and ignorant. Q will be back to annoy and pester those who would oppose me, but not today. I wonder if anybody even remembers me...

[TheDarkling]

Yeah this topic is still here, its almost like somebody dug it up from the pit of hell for no good reason .

[Alyeska]

[TheDarkling]

I think Alyeska made put my point across a little better than I did.

[atheistboy]

You know, I think Q was originally supposed to be more powerful than Voyager made him out to be. Remember when he was stripped of his powers? The Calamarain were after him and tried to kill him. When his powers were restored, he shrunk them (it? they? whatever...) and held them in his hand. I think he has some real powers, but now that Voyager made the Continuum into a dirt road and established the fact that humans can use Q weaponry(?) I don't know what is going on.

[TheDarkling]

atheistboy: Well as has been pointed out before Q can give humans Q powers therefore the Q "weapons" may have been the ability to kill other Q and not actually some sort of technology just Q power (whatever that may be).

That being said, What didnt Voyager manage to destroy or at least cripple with regard to good trek (non Braga infected trek)?

[atheistboy]

Darkling: Yeah, good point.

It's too bad we cannot somehow de-cannonize Voayger. Maybe Q could pop up and tell us that the whole show was him screwing around with alternate universes and such.

[Zoink]

How is this paradox a test? Ask yourself this: could YOU have solved it in Picard's shoes? And be honest, now. If you woke up tomorrow 62 years and an hour later you were 14 years old 2000 miles away, do you really think you could figure it out?

Perhaps.

Time Travel Rules:

Rule #1: B&B aren't geniuses.

Rule #2: Your own actions during time travel might cause that which you're trying to prevent. That's in pretty much every scifi show. Picard knows this, I know this, Q knows Picard knows this, Q knows that Q knows that Picard knows this, everybody knows...

The test wasn't just whether Picard could SOLVE the puzzle, but whether he was open-minded and imaginative enough to recognize the puzzle in the first place, then go on to solve it, and lastly sacrifice his life and the lives of his crew not once but thrice, as the solution to the puzzle demanded.

ie. the test was to solve the puzzle.

It didn't require any special insight an the part of Picard. Take Time Travel 101. Get Data to tell you its an anti-time anomoly, get Data to tell you that 3 static warp shells will solve it, sacrifice yourself.... badda boom badda bing. Pretty standard stuff.

No special "test" of humanity present.

I'm reasonably sure that that's a kind of test most of us would fail.

So if we'd all fail, how is this a test of humanity? But, I think I'd pass....

Captain Zoink: What is it Data?
Data: An anti-time anomoly sir.
Captain Zoink: How can we stop it.
Data: We'll need to create a static warp shell in each time frame from which it was created. We might be destroyed though.
Captain Zoink: Let's do our duty...

Badda boom badda bing, Captain Zoink saves the day....

[Yogi]

Q's powers are around as cannon as EVERYTHING ELSE in fantasy and science fiction. ANYTHING can be explained via smoke, mirrors, and tancy tech. If we add in the "mindscrew" aspect, then everything in Star Wars could be smoke and mirrors as well.

But we don't think of that, do we? If we do, then PROVE to me that the events in Star Wars were NOT the result of some mental/illusion stuff.

[Zoink]

Q's powers are around as cannon as EVERYTHING ELSE in fantasy and science fiction. ANYTHING can be explained via smoke, mirrors, and tancy tech. If we add in the "mindscrew" aspect, then everything in Star Wars could be smoke and mirrors as well.

But we don't think of that, do we? If we do, then PROVE to me that the events in Star Wars were NOT the result of some mental/illusion stuff.

I don't think anyone here doubts that the Q are really powerful compared to the Federation, but the limits of their powers have not been addressed in the show. The Q are deceitful and its not unlikely that they are likewise deceitful when discussing their own power to Picard or Janeway. Its already canon that Q lies about his powers: they aren't omnipotent.

Also, the source of Q's powers has not been addressed: are they natural or mechanical (like the weapons they were using)? We don't have this problem with warp drives or hyperdrives... we don't see Vader show up with no clue how he got there.

Its a case of what the characters say in a movie/show is different from what you actually see... because the characters can be lying, idiots, or simply misinformed.

[SirNitram]

Ah, the OTHER Grandfather paradox. If you go back in time and boink your Grandmother, getting your pregnant with your parent, what happens if you don't go back in time?

The correct answer, of course, is events will conspire to send you back. It's like in the Terminator: John Conner's father is the man John Conner sends back in time. There's never a timeline where this isn't so, so the loop just ticks away by itself.

This sort of thing pisses off those that believe in free will, but hey, if something is the past, it can't be changed.

[Alyeska]

Ah, the OTHER Grandfather paradox. If you go back in time and boink your Grandmother, getting your pregnant with your parent, what happens if you don't go back in time?

The correct answer, of course, is events will conspire to send you back. It's like in the Terminator: John Conner's father is the man John Conner sends back in time. There's never a timeline where this isn't so, so the loop just ticks away by itself.

This sort of thing pisses off those that believe in free will, but hey, if something is the past, it can't be changed.

Well, Futurama made a good joke on the Grandfather Paradox.

Fry accidently went back in time and kileld his Grandfather. His Grandmother was in mourning and comforted herself with Fry and they made out. In the morning the Professor found Fry and called him a pervert. Fry told him it was impossible for the person he thought was his grandfather to be his grandfather. The professor pointed out that Fry now needed a new grandfather. Fry didn't have a clue, the professor pointed out that Fry was now his own grandfather. At the end of the episode the professor then said. "And is history does not mind that our deginerate friend Fry is his own grandfather, who are we to judge?"

I just love it when a series intentionally butchers time travel and paradoxs just for comedy value.

[neoolong]

Well, Futurama made a good joke on the Grandfather Paradox.

Fry accidently went back in time and kileld his Grandfather. His Grandmother was in mourning and comforted herself with Fry and they made out. In the morning the Professor found Fry and called him a pervert. Fry told him it was impossible for the person he thought was his grandfather to be his grandfather. The professor pointed out that Fry now needed a new grandfather. Fry didn't have a clue, the professor pointed out that Fry was now his own grandfather. At the end of the episode the professor then said. "And is history does not mind that our deginerate friend Fry is his own grandfather, who are we to judge?"

I just love it when a series intentionally butchers time travel and paradoxs just for comedy value.

And in Red Dwarf, the main character is his own father and his ex-girlfriend is his mother. How's that for comedy value in time travel?

[Slartibartfast]

Q "shrunk" an alien ship with a mere wave if his hand, The ship seemed to function normally. He then "blew" it away like he was blowing some hot soup. (That Q Human episode, name unknown

It wasn't a ship, it was that annoying alien entity that didn't let the Enterprise lower their shields to pull the moon.

[Slartibartfast]

Dammit just now I notice that somebody's reviving old threads.