Psionics and other varient magics in D&D.

[Ford Prefect]

Again, wary of the monk.

Dissappointing; it's probably my favourite character archetype (this is not because I like to hit stuff, nor because I wished to use the word 'archetype' in a sentence). It is kind of off-topic I must admit, but what should one be wary of when considering the monk?

[lance]

My copy of the epic handbook shows demilichs to be immune to holy word. Shatter, holy smite, dispel evil, and anything that ignores SR are the only spells that work. Shitty hitpoints (which aren't that much worse than wizard hitpoints) don't matter when you are nearly invulnerable. And you come back to life. Demilich stat and AC bonuses are worth more than a million in defensive items since they stack with other bonuses.

Epic spells are easy to control since they cost a fortune in xp and gp, and most importantly, the DM has to sign off on each and every one of them. But that's obviously not a consideration for you, because any reasonable DM wouldn't allow warhulks or demilich characters either.

Your right, I thought holy word didn't offer spell resistence. Shapechange can offer you many of the benifits of being a demilich, except for the come back to life thing. Which really shouldn't be a big deal at this level with true ressurection only costing 25k.
The main reason this isn't munchkinism is that this is just putting a template on a character, the template has an LA which is supposed to make it so it is fair and balanced for a pc to have in relation to the other party members. Now if the player had themselves turned into a demilich in a desecrated area, and took some Libris Mortis feats to further get more hp, and created their own demiplane, it slides more towards munchkinism.

[lance]

Can prestige/class combinations (those used by powergamers, not used by powergamers, and those designed by brain-dead imbeciles intent on making unplayable characters by combining classes with no synergy bonuses and with impossible stat allocations) be established on a bell-curve or is there some other distribution that they would conform to? If so, are the core classes in the center of the curve, or somewhere else? How much more powerful than a core class do you have to be in order to be considered a powergamer (eg. 1/2 of a standard deviation)?

I would put them in the order of
Hive, holy trinity
Incantatrix, Artifacer blaster.
Caster with a prestige class
Well played Primary Casters, With wilder and warmage being on the bottom, Druid on top, Divine persist clerics second, psion third, Archivist 4th .
Hulking Hurler. Uber charger, king of smack etc
Frenzied berserker, normal charger.
Mystic Theurges, gishes with sublime cord or ur-priest.
Mystic theurges, Gishes normal classes.
Tripmonky psywarrior
Tripmonkey fighter.
Dervish, swashbuckler/duelist
Barbarian, paladin, psywarrior, incarnum.
Fighter, rogue, monk, swashbuckler ninja, hexblade, scout, Artifacer I suck but I have cool equipment!
Bard, Ranger, samuri, warlock, soulknife
A fighter that didn't think before taking his feats.

Spelltheif-Campain dependent, from high on the list to rock bottom.

[Imperial Overlord]

The main reason this isn't munchkinism . . . .

It's wild, rampant powergaming. Any character immune to virtually every spell and most weapons, to say nothing of the other advantages, is a munchkin. Your complete blindness to this rather obvious fact is the damning evidence that you are a rabid power gamer.

[lance]

The main reason this isn't munchkinism . . . .

It's wild, rampant powergaming. Any character immune to virtually every spell and most weapons, to say nothing of the other advantages, is a munchkin. Your complete blindness to this rather obvious fact is the damning evidence that you are a rabid power gamer.

Its a fucking template applied to a creature. It maybe broken, but that doesn't mean its powergaming. It doesn't mean its not powergaming. In and of itself it is not powergaming, their are other things to be taken into account primarily the motives of the player. Also their are alot easier ways to be immune to virtually every spell, and you don't lose a dozen levels to boot. Its called "Shapechange" + most golems, and several other creatures.
He is not immune to most weapons, not when he is in the 30s for levels.

[Imperial Overlord]

[Its a fucking template applied to a creature. It maybe broken, but that doesn't mean its powergaming.

Yes it does dumbass. That's what powergaming is.

Also their are alot easier ways to be immune to virtually every spell, and you don't lose a dozen levels to boot. Its called "Shapechange" + most golems, and several other creatures.

1) You can't suck out souls and cast spells when shapeshifted into a golem.

2) Only a powergammer would complain that you can still be hurt by the weapons of 30+ level characters.

3) Saying you can get nearly the same results by abusing a broken spell doesn't mean the template isn't broken.

4) Doesn't address the other fringe benefits like extremely high AC, ability to cast harm on yourself or monster summoning IX at will, and massive stat boosts. Or the "I'm back in one day if you manage to kill me."

[SirNitram]

Again, wary of the monk.

Dissappointing; it's probably my favourite character archetype (this is not because I like to hit stuff, nor because I wished to use the word 'archetype' in a sentence). It is kind of off-topic I must admit, but what should one be wary of when considering the monk?

Monk specific items, PrC's, and feats should be double-checked. They should be considered extra carefully if not from the core books. Vow Of Poverty should be stricken. Yes, it makes perfect sense, in-universe, for a monk to take such. The powers granted turn a Monk into a fucking goliath.

Once you've learned these basic rules, there's a whole host of individual tricks that cesspits like the CO boards pump out. I couldn't name them all, but fear the concept of two attacks from a flying leap, which doubles the powerattack(And you can get other things which double that), coupled with a few other feats to make power attack worse. If someone's always making leaping 'charges', introduce a Wall of Force to temporarily neuter them, then beat them with sticks.

[lance]

[Its a fucking template applied to a creature. It maybe broken, but that doesn't mean its powergaming.

Yes it does dumbass. That's what powergaming is.

No, it would have to have been taken because it was broken. Like if a player takes it because he wants to be a floating skull, it won't be powergaming.

Also their are alot easier ways to be immune to virtually every spell, and you don't lose a dozen levels to boot. Its called "Shapechange" + most golems, and several other creatures.

1) You can't suck out souls and cast spells when shapeshifted into a golem.

Yes you can, take autostill a couple times with the 12 levels you will have over the demilich. Also trap the soul.

2) Only a powergammer would complain that you can still be hurt by the weapons of 30+ level characters.

Who's complaining? I was just correcting your false statement of the demilich being immune to most weapons.

3) Saying you can get nearly the same results by abusing a broken spell doesn't mean the template isn't broken.

It's a fucking ninth level spell, it's ment to be powerful.

4) Doesn't address the other fringe benefits like extremely high AC, ability to cast harm on yourself or monster summoning IX at will, and massive stat boosts. Or the "I'm back in one day if you manage to kill me."

[/quote] Summon monster IX at this level will give you little help. You lose massively on your spell resistance checks in exchange for those stat boosts, also you will lose out on 7 or 8 epic feats. Harm is only a hundred hp, and healing will in all likely hood be in plenty of supply at this level. And its called "I'll come back 23 hours later than if I hadn
t taken this stupid template"

[lance]

Again, wary of the monk.

Dissappointing; it's probably my favourite character archetype (this is not because I like to hit stuff, nor because I wished to use the word 'archetype' in a sentence). It is kind of off-topic I must admit, but what should one be wary of when considering the monk?

Monk specific items, PrC's, and feats should be double-checked. They should be considered extra carefully if not from the core books. Vow Of Poverty should be stricken. Yes, it makes perfect sense, in-universe, for a monk to take such. The powers granted turn a Monk into a fucking goliath.

Vow of poverty really ain't that bad as long as you use close to the standered wealth chart and aren't at a low level. The main boon is the feats, everything else can be replicated with magic items, support casting and what not. As long as you prohibit the borrowing of tomes anyway.

Edit- also if you don't plan on throwing everybody into prison with out their gear, or similiar situations.

If someone's always making leaping 'charges', introduce a Wall of Force to temporarily neuter them, then beat them with sticks.

I like low ceilings.

[Imperial Overlord]

No, it would have been taken because it was broken. Like if a player takes it because he wants to be a floating skull, it won't be powergaming.

No, taking any broken template is powergaming. If you want to turn your character into a flying, undead skull there are plenty of waves to implement it without it being as ridiculous as a demilich.

Yes you can, take autostill a couple times with the 12 levels you will have over the demilich. Also trap the soul.

Yes, you can burn a shitload of feats, abuse a broken Ninth level spell, and spam an eight level spell and start to come close to demilich nastiness. Still broken.

Who's complaining? I was just correcting your false statement of the demilich being immune to most weapons.

My statement is only false is weapons carried by 30+ level characters are "most weapons" you dishonest prick. And I've seen more than a few epic level characters (let alone monsters which are much worse off) with weapons that are slightly better than useless against a demilich.

It's a fucking ninth level spell, it's ment to be powerful.

Powerful doesn't mean broken fool. Meteor swarm is powerful, shape change is broken.

Summon monster IX at this level will give you little help. You lose massively on your spell resistance checks in exchange for those stat boosts, also you will lose out on 7 or 8 epic feats. Harm is only a hundred hp, and healing will in all likely hood be in plenty of supply at this level. And its called "I'll come back 23 hours later than if I hadn
t taken this stupid template"

Healing at will is valuable, especially when its almost impossible to harm you do to massive immunities and sky high AC and immunity to critical hits. Epic character take and dish out massive damage and consume healing resources like water. I've noticed that you haven't touched on the critical hit immunity (and you take a lot of those at epic), high AC, or stat bonuses. The huge flying ability doesn't suck either.

In short, your ideas of broken are a joke because your baseline judgement is rampant powergaming.

[SirNitram]

Dissappointing; it's probably my favourite character archetype (this is not because I like to hit stuff, nor because I wished to use the word 'archetype' in a sentence). It is kind of off-topic I must admit, but what should one be wary of when considering the monk?

Monk specific items, PrC's, and feats should be double-checked. They should be considered extra carefully if not from the core books. Vow Of Poverty should be stricken. Yes, it makes perfect sense, in-universe, for a monk to take such. The powers granted turn a Monk into a fucking goliath.

Vow of poverty really ain't that bad as long as you use close to the standered wealth chart and aren't at a low level. The main boon is the feats, everything else can be replicated with magic items, support casting and what not. As long as you prohibit the borrowing of tomes anyway.

A DM should not be forced to adhere to some standard of loot-giving by a feat. Further, yea, it's pretty badly abused unless you let people slap together stat boosting items willy-nilly.

[lance]

No, it would have been taken because it was broken. Like if a player takes it because he wants to be a floating skull, it won't be powergaming.

No, taking any broken template is powergaming. If you want to turn your character into a flying, undead skull there are plenty of waves to implement it without it being as ridiculous as a demilich.

Yes you can, take autostill a couple times with the 12 levels you will have over the demilich. Also trap the soul.

Yes, you can burn a shitload of feats, abuse a broken Ninth level spell, and spam an eight level spell and start to come close to demilich nastiness. Still broken.

Oh yeah burn those feats that you wouldn't have had if you took up the demilich template.

Who's complaining? I was just correcting your false statement of the demilich being immune to most weapons.

My statement is only false is weapons carried by 30+ level characters are "most weapons" you dishonest prick. And I've seen more than a few epic level characters (let alone monsters which are much worse off) with weapons that are slightly better than useless against a demilich.

For the concerns of characers of 33rd level, yes they are, also as per the 3rd edition version its DR only applies to melee weapons.

It's a fucking ninth level spell, it's ment to be powerful.

Powerful doesn't mean broken fool. Meteor swarm is powerful, shape change is broken.

You say demilich is broken, which means their shouldn't be options that make you almost as good and don't cost you a million gp and a dozen levels.

Summon monster IX at this level will give you little help. You lose massively on your spell resistance checks in exchange for those stat boosts, also you will lose out on 7 or 8 epic feats. Harm is only a hundred hp, and healing will in all likely hood be in plenty of supply at this level. And its called "I'll come back 23 hours later than if I hadn
t taken this stupid template"

Healing at will is valuable, especially when its almost impossible to harm you do to massive immunities and sky high AC and immunity to critical hits. Epic character take and dish out massive damage and consume healing resources like water. I've noticed that you haven't touched on the critical hit immunity (and you take a lot of those at epic), high AC, or stat bonuses. The huge flying ability doesn't suck either.

In short, your ideas of broken are a joke because your baseline judgement is rampant powergaming.

[/quote] You should be taking 0 critical hits at epic level. The flying ability doesn't suck but it is hardly broken. Insight bonuses to ac are 2500*xsquared, so the demilich may still have a high AC, but he is going to need it with him being on the weak side offensively. He will only be usefull when the enemy don't have a way to protect against his trap the soul ability.

[lance]

Monk specific items, PrC's, and feats should be double-checked. They should be considered extra carefully if not from the core books. Vow Of Poverty should be stricken. Yes, it makes perfect sense, in-universe, for a monk to take such. The powers granted turn a Monk into a fucking goliath.

Vow of poverty really ain't that bad as long as you use close to the standered wealth chart and aren't at a low level. The main boon is the feats, everything else can be replicated with magic items, support casting and what not. As long as you prohibit the borrowing of tomes anyway.

A DM should not be forced to adhere to some standard of loot-giving by a feat. Further, yea, it's pretty badly abused unless you let people slap together stat boosting items willy-nilly.

:Shrug: It is the standered. If the DM deviates from it signifigantly he can stagger the VOP benifits. I would imagine that most campains allow for stat boosting items due to how cheap they are to make.

[SirNitram]

:Shrug: It is the standered. If the DM deviates from it signifigantly he can stagger the VOP benifits. I would imagine that most campains allow for stat boosting items due to how cheap they are to make.

You can't fucking help but put words in people's mouths, can you? It is not a question of whether the campaign allows for stat boosters, but how easy they are to acquire or make. And most I've seen they are quite difficult to make.

As I said, a DM should not be constrained or given extra work because of this feat, and yes, it's fucking broken even without, unless you're playing Monty Haul.

And would it fucking kill you to type 'standard' correctly when it's on the screen where you're typing?

[Imperial Overlord]

Piling up spell penetration bonuses is easy. Loss of caster levels hurts, but its bareable at epic level.

First you're complaining about losing feats and now you admit that you have burn feats to get close. I notice you didn't even address the burned spell slots or try to defend shapeshift as equal in power to other 9th level spells.

You're still taking critical hits at epic level. In fact, epic is a crit fest, but that's probably because I've actually run epic with non-powergamers. Yes, there are ways to reduce them, but unlike munchkin world players have to trade off bonuses and don't always get what they want. Even if they are immune to critical hits (and thus from rogues and assassin), in non-munchkin world there is a serious trade off for this.

You completely miss the ball on demilich flight. It's fast and perfect, allowing them to avoid melee in most situations, making them even harder to kill

A demilich's offensive powers are only limited when the enemy manages to virtually immune to incoming spells, death howls, and soul stealing. Don't forget how the stat bonuses jack up spell DCs.

Do the math on the natural armour, size, stat and AC bonuses after you've stacked them with conventional magic items. Far more than a million in bonuses. Why don't you calculate how much +10 to Int, Wis, and Cha is worth? Or +20 to a handful of skills. It gets an insight bonus to its AC equal to its hit dice for Christ's sake. Why don't you stat out the cost of a magic item that will give a +21 insight bonus to AC genius? Don't forget the epic cost multipliers.

[lance]

[

quote="SirNitram"]

:Shrug: It is the standered. If the DM deviates from it signifigantly he can stagger the VOP benifits. I would imagine that most campains allow for stat boosting items due to how cheap they are to make.

You can't fucking help but put words in people's mouths, can you? It is not a question of whether the campaign allows for stat boosters, but how easy they are to acquire or make. And most I've seen they are quite difficult to make.

Sorry, I ment in the keeping up with VOP sense.
From what I've seen they seem quite easy to make, just 18 thousand gp and 1440 exp.

As I said, a DM should not be constrained or given extra work because of this feat, and yes, it's fucking broken even without, unless you're playing Monty Haul.

Like I said if you play standard the VOP monk shouldn't be overpowered or broke compared to a non VOP version. Except at the lower levels.

And would it fucking kill you to type 'standard' correctly when it's on the screen where you're typing?

Sorry, I'll try to pay more attention next time.

[lance]

Piling up spell penetration bonuses is easy. Loss of caster levels hurts, but its bareable at epic level.

First you're complaining about losing feats and now you admit that you have burn feats to get close. I notice you didn't even address the burned spell slots or try to defend shapeshift as equal in power to other 9th level spells.

The demilich loses 8 feats, it takes half that to get the advantages back.

You're still taking critical hits at epic level. In fact, epic is a crit fest, but that's probably because I've actually run epic with non-powergamers. Yes, there are ways to reduce them, but unlike munchkin world players have to trade off bonuses and don't always get what they want. Even if they are immune to critical hits (and thus from rogues and assassin), in non-munchkin world there is a serious trade off for this.

Fortification armor is easy to get.

You completely miss the ball on demilich flight. It's fast and perfect, allowing them to avoid melee in most situations, making them even harder to kill

The fly spell comes really close to this, your 3/4 of the speed, and I think one step below perfect.

A demilich's offensive powers are only limited when the enemy manages to virtually immune to incoming spells, death howls, and soul stealing. Don't forget how the stat bonuses jack up spell DCs.

I said limited, not useless. It will have to use non SR spells and be reliant on its soultap ability, what can be protected against like normal death effects at this level.

Do the math on the natural armour, size, stat and AC bonuses after you've stacked them with conventional magic items. Far more than a million in bonuses. Why don't you calculate how much +10 to Int, Wis, and Cha is worth? Or +20 to a handful of skills. It gets an insight bonus to its AC equal to its hit dice for Christ's sake. Why don't you stat out the cost of a magic item that will give a +21 insight bonus to AC genius? Don't forget the epic cost multipliers.

[/quote]Only the +10 to its spell casting class matters. Which would cost a million GP. Point on the AC. The only thing this template has going for it is its defensive abilities, and the ability to curb stomp an enemy that is unprepared for epic.

[lance]

Piling up spell penetration bonuses is easy. Loss of caster levels hurts, but its bareable at epic level.

I am basing a lot of my argument on the lich's loss of caster level being a large balancing factor for its stat boosts. If you can post them, I will withdraw
my argument on the demilich not being broken.

I notice you didn't even address the burned spell slots or try to defend shapeshift as equal in power to other 9th level spells.

I would put shapechange in the top tier of spells with gate, energydrain, mordikens disjunction, Timestop and dominate monster.

[Imperial Overlord]

Let's see, you've completely ignored my point about SR boosting abilities.

The demilichs get bonus feats as well, which cuts down on your loss.

Fly spells have to be cast, are subject of dispelling, and are inferior.

The Charisma bonus improves the soul trap ability (which has a very high DC) and isn't a death effect. Even if you save you take 4 negative levels. Ouch. Of course its a Will save, so any warrior types are boned trying to make that save.

Fortification armour has costs. You're content to assume 1) It's easily available 2) That other abilities aren't chosen 3) That it is affordable. Throwing heavy fortification on +7 armour costs feats and a fortune, which may not be available, 4) wizards and sorcerers are going to be wearing it. Oops, they wont. I guess they are going to be taking some criticals.

The +10 stacks with other bonuses, of which he is likely to have many. Since you like to work in power gamer land where everything is a simple matter of going into the epic item store and clunking down gp try this math: simple +6 stat booster makes it +16, with works out to more that 2.5million gp versus 36 +1 million.

[lance]

The demilichs get bonus feats as well, which cuts down on your loss.

Read the line that said Feats. Didn't read the one right below that.

Fly spells have to be cast, are subject of dispelling, and are inferior.

Dispelling should only be a problem if it comes from mordikens disjunction. They are inferior, but not on a level that will matter in most situations.

The Charisma bonus improves the soul trap ability (which has a very high DC) and isn't a death effect. Even if you save you take 4 negative levels. Ouch. Of course its a Will save, so any warrior types are boned trying to make that save.

Its a Fortitude save. The negative levels can be protected against. Most monsters at this level will have over 40 in the save. Not alot of monsters with over 30 CR, but ones in the mid 20s have this kind of bonus. I expect the DC to be about 45-50 for a non-sorceror. Not sure for a sorceror. Also it seems like it should be a death effect, what with you dying if you fail your save,

Fortification armour has costs. You're content to assume 1) It's easily available 2) That other abilities aren't chosen 3) That it is affordable. Throwing heavy fortification on +7 armour costs feats and a fortune, which may not be available, 4) wizards and sorcerers are going to be wearing it. Oops, they wont. I guess they are going to be taking some criticals.

They have other options, like shapechange. Basic Fortification should be fairly available and affordable. You might just have to do with it being +5 though.

[Imperial Overlord]

You don't die if you fail your save, your body falls to dust and your soul gets stolen. As a powergamer, you should appreciate the rules lawyering that goes into that distinction. The do have to make a Will save against the fear effect though, which is going to fuck most of them up.

Yes the negative levels can be protected against. If you know its going to happen. If your protection works and isn't stripped away. More and more preperation are required just to get on a survivable footing, prep time that you don't always have and that a demilich can exploit as well.

You can't always have the armour and weapons you want. You don't always have shapechange on and it can be dispell and disjoined. Armour with fortification is nice, but so are other options. Critical hit immunity is a nice bonus, one which is especially difficult for wizards and sorcerers to get, and it stacks with high AC, fast speed, near magic immunity, immunity to most weapons, elemental resistance, and healing at will to make the demilich virtually unkillable. A decline caster level, but with a huge boost in DCs, is quite acceptable when the greatest weaknesses of arcane casters are removed.

[lance]

You don't die if you fail your save, your body falls to dust and your soul gets stolen. As a powergamer, you should appreciate the rules lawyering that goes into that distinction.

That seems a lot like a death effect to me. I will have to compare with other spells and get back to you on that.

The do have to make a Will save against the fear effect though, which is going to fuck most of them up.

They should have more than 5 HD.

Yes the negative levels can be protected against. If you know its going to happen. If your protection works and isn't stripped away. More and more preperation are required just to get on a survivable footing, prep time that you don't always have and that a demilich can exploit as well.

Energy Drain is fucking scary and you should have protection from it. Also the said demilich is a character, I don't think the party has to worry about him eating their souls.

You can't always have the armour and weapons you want. You don't always have shapechange on and it can be dispell and disjoined. Armour with fortification is nice, but so are other options.

If it exists on the planet then they can track it down. And the wizard should have shapechange going over a half the time.

Critical hit immunity is a nice bonus, one which is especially difficult for wizards and sorcerers to get, and it stacks with high AC, fast speed, near magic immunity, immunity to most weapons, elemental resistance, and healing at will to make the demilich virtually unkillable.

With the exception of the AC a wizard can have all of that easily.

[Imperial Overlord]

Hmmm. Missed the 5HD. Conceeded.

The trap the soul is not a death effect. It is specifically described as not a death effect and death ward does not stop it.

There are a few good protections from energy drain and you won't always have them on and then don't always grant immunity. Neither will monsters, which part of the point. When the demilich can spam a non-death effect, instant kill that inflicts negative levels when you make the save, that's fucking brutal. It can disjoin, dispell or overload protections while laughing off any attempt to harm and dropping more spells or soul eating.

If it exists on the planet then they can track it down. And the wizard should have shapechange going over a half the time.

Again you are assuming they can easily get their hands on any gear they want and always have the right spells running. Your dream item doesn't always exist in the magic store, waiting for you to shell out the cash. It isn't necessarily carried by the next foe you meet. I slogged through 9 levels through the City of the Spider Queen and it sure as hell would have been easier if I could just tailor the loot to order. Guess what, the game doesn't work that way. Does your DM go by the name bitch and allow you to get away with this shit?

Critical hit immunity is a nice bonus, one which is especially difficult for wizards and sorcerers to get, and it stacks with high AC, fast speed, near magic immunity, immunity to most weapons, elemental resistance, and healing at will to make the demilich virtually unkillable.

With the exception of the AC a wizard can have all of that easily.

Bullshit. A lot of those are hard to get in a reasonably run campaign, which I'm guesing you avoid playing in like the plague. They also suck up item slots, which a demilich can load with lots of useful items and get even more heinous. The items and the lich, can't have these protections stripped by a dispel and any items are stored safely away with the phylactery, which prevents them from being hammered by a disjunction or other nastiness.

[SirNitram]

:Shrug: It is the standered. If the DM deviates from it signifigantly he can stagger the VOP benifits. I would imagine that most campains allow for stat boosting items due to how cheap they are to make.

You can't fucking help but put words in people's mouths, can you? It is not a question of whether the campaign allows for stat boosters, but how easy they are to acquire or make. And most I've seen they are quite difficult to make.

Sorry, I ment in the keeping up with VOP sense.
From what I've seen they seem quite easy to make, just 18 thousand gp and 1440 exp.

Ah, so you're not just a munchkin, you've normalized to Monty Haul's where no effort is needed on magical items.

As I said, a DM should not be constrained or given extra work because of this feat, and yes, it's fucking broken even without, unless you're playing Monty Haul.

Like I said if you play standard the VOP monk shouldn't be overpowered or broke compared to a non VOP version. Except at the lower levels.

Bullshit, plain and simple. Why? Because no non-epic item can grant a bonus to a stat of +6 or +8 before Epic, and a VOP Monk gets both of those.

Imbecile. Or liar. Whichever you'd prefer to walk around with. Your pathetic arguments are simply digging your hole deeper. Shut the fuck up.

[lance]

You can't fucking help but put words in people's mouths, can you? It is not a question of whether the campaign allows for stat boosters, but how easy they are to acquire or make. And most I've seen they are quite difficult to make.

Sorry, I ment in the keeping up with VOP sense.
From what I've seen they seem quite easy to make, just 18 thousand gp and 1440 exp.

Ah, so you're not just a munchkin, you've normalized to Monty Haul's where no effort is needed on magical items.

VOP poverty comes close to what the characters should have in a standered campain.

As I said, a DM should not be constrained or given extra work because of this feat, and yes, it's fucking broken even without, unless you're playing Monty Haul.

Like I said if you play standard the VOP monk shouldn't be overpowered or broke compared to a non VOP version. Except at the lower levels.

Bullshit, plain and simple. Why? Because no non-epic item can grant a bonus to a stat of +6 or +8 before Epic, and a VOP Monk gets both of those.

You mean like the half dozen items in the DMG that provide +6 to a stat for less than 40k? Wonder what happens if that character if he buys a tomb or manual +2, Let's see 6 plus 2 is 8. Intresting on how that worked.

Imbecile. Or liar. Whichever you'd prefer to walk around with. Your pathetic arguments are simply digging your hole deeper. Shut the fuck up.

As opposed to you who thinks a +8 bonus has to be equaled from a single souce, and thought that a +6 boost to a stat was an fucking epic item.