Fundie Forward

[CaptJodan]

Well, after my conversion to at the very least agnostic beliefs by this board, I have finally received by first fundie attack by a friend who made a grevious error in sending me a forward, then claiming it to be a great article. (I try never to debate these things unless someone comes at me first.) It's a pretty bad article, saying nothing really new in the world of religion, but I thought I'd post it here. See how I did compared to the SD.net veterans.

THE LAW IS THE LAW

This is one of the better e-mails I have received in a long time! I hope
this makes its way around the USA several times over!!!!!

So Be It!

THE LAW IS THE LAW


So if the US government determines that it is against the law for the words
"under God" to be on our money, then, so be it. And if that same government decides that the "Ten Commandments" are not to
be used in or on a government installation, then, so be it.

And since they already have prohibited any prayer in the schools, on which they deem their authority, then so be it. I say, "so be it," because I would like to be a law abiding US citizen. I say, "so be it," because I would like to think that smarter people than I are in positions to make good decisions. I would like to think that those people have the American Publics' best
interests at heart.

BUT, YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE I'D LIKE?

Since we can't pray to God, can't Trust in God and cannot Post His
Commandments in Government buildings, I don't believe the Government and it's employees should participate in the Easter and Christmas clebrations which honor the God that our government is eliminating from many facets of American life.

I'd like my mail delivered on Christmas, Good Friday, Thanksgiving & Easter. After all, it's just another day. I'd like the US Supreme Court to be in session on Christmas, Good Friday, Thanksgiving & Easter as well as Sundays. After all, it's just another day.

I'd like the Senate and the House of Representatives to not have to worry
about getting home for the "Christmas Break." After all it's just another
day.

I'm thinking that a lot of my taxpayer dollars could be saved, if all
government offices & services would work on Christmas, Good Friday & Easter.

It shouldn't cost any overtime since those would be just like any other day
of the week to a government that is trying to be "politically correct."


In fact....

I think that our government should work on Sundays (initially set aside for
worshipping God...) because, after all, our government says that it should
be just another day....

What do you all think????

If this idea gets to enough people, maybe our elected officials will stop
giving in to the minority opinions and begin, once again, to represent the
'majority' of ALL of the American people.

SO BE IT...........

Please Dear Lord,

Give us the help needed to keep you in our country!

'Amen' and 'Amen'

[CaptJodan]

I replied thusly....

THE LAW IS THE LAW


So if the US government determines that it is against the law for the words
"under God" to be on our money,

then, so be it."

Not going to happen. But it's not a bad idea.

"And if that same government decides that the "Ten Commandments" are not to
be used in or

on a government installation,

then, so be it."

Not sure if this one passed, but which version did they put up? The one that Moses broke, or the one that God rewrote after that event, making up new rules?

"And since they already have prohibited any prayer in the schools,

on which they deem their authority,

then so be it."

Because it would be so much better to have whole school groups devoted to prayer and religious meetings in school. I assume these would be Christian prayer groups, right? Or would we have all religions represented. Muslims would have to stop in the middle of class to pray to the East a couple times a day, I'm sure.

Though that is not as bad as, say, non-religous kids being teased and taunted becuase they don't participate in school organized prayer.

"I say, "so be it," because I would like to be a law abiding US citizen."

Good for you.

"I say, "so be it," because I would like to think that smarter people than I
are in positions to make good decisions."

Well, if only THAT were true.

"I would like to think that those people have the American Publics' best
interests at heart.

BUT, YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE I'D LIKE?"

Here it comes.....

"Since we can't pray to God, can't Trust in God and cannot Post His
Commandments in Government buildings,"

No one said you can't pray to God. No one said you can't trust in God. All of those things are possible in your homes, in churches, and in what should be (but more and more isn't) non-government funded events.

As for the Commandments, there was something mentioned a while back about a seperation of church and state.

"I don't believe the Government and it's employees should participate in the
Easter and Christmas celebrations which honor the God that our government is
eliminating from many facets of American life."

Woah nelly, that's a whopper. It really starts to go south from here on in.

Secular individauls can participate in the spirit of Christmas AND the spirit of Easter as much as anyone else. As I mentioned earlier, these holidays, or celebrations are neither unique to Christianity, nor were they birthed by the religion. Winter celebrations were often held long before Christanity ever came into existience as a way to get over the depression felt over the winter, gloomy months (something we don't really have in Florida, mind you, but in much of the world it sucks). Easter was a sign of rebirth for MANY cultures outside of Christianity, and again was a celebration of rebirth and life that is not unique to Christianity. That Christanity now has taken those former pagan holidays as it's own does not diminish the fact that it has little to do with them. (Christ wasn't necessarily born on the 25 anyway. I'm not sure we even know when he was born, but it likely wasn't then)

Put another way, Christmas has Santa Clause, and Easter has the Easter Bunny and egg painting and hunting. Both of these do NOT have origins in Christanity, nor have anything whatsoever to do with Jesus of any kind. Santa doesn't say "Peace out, give my love to Jesus" as he flies by on his sleigh, and I have no idea how you'd make a connection between the Bunny and egg hunting to the rebirth of Christ.

"I'd like my mail delivered on Christmas, Good Friday, Thanksgiving & Easter.

After all, it's just another day."

I imagine that'd be difficult as a vast majority of the population would still want to celebrate those holidays. The fact that Christians would wish to horde their precious Christmas, in itself a holiday of giving, all for themselves speaks volumes.

"I'd like the US Supreme Court to be in session on Christmas, Good Friday,
Thanksgiving & Easter as well as Sundays. After all, it's just another day."

Now we're bringing Thanksgiving into the argument? Are you kidding me? Tell me you're kidding me.

"I'd like the Senate and the House of Representatives to not have to worry
about getting home for the "Christmas Break." After all it's just another
day."

Covered above. It's amazing how Christians don't realize that people actually had winter holidays before they did.

"I'm thinking that a lot of my taxpayer dollars could be saved, if all
government offices & services would work on Christmas, Good Friday & Easter."

Really? I'd rather think taxpayer dollars would be SPENT in order to PAY for the people who were working on those days. Silly me.

"It shouldn't cost any overtime since those would be just like any other day
of the week to a government that is trying to be "politically correct."

Ahh, but they would be working, and that would cost money. As opposed to NOT working, and not getting paid for it.

"In fact...."

Facts? Oh good. I was hoping we were getting to those.

"I think that our government should work on Sundays (initially set aside for
worshipping God...) because, after all, our government says that it should
be just another day....

What do you all think????"

Actually, Saturday was the day set aside to worship God, but the Pope changed it to Sunday a while back.

"If this idea gets to enough people, maybe our elected officials will stop
giving in to the minority opinions and begin, once again, to represent the
'majority' of ALL of the American people.

SO BE IT..........."

This is really my second favorite sentence in the piece. How easily can this phrase be turned around to speak against homosexuals? The majority of all American people believe against gay marriage, even gay sex of any kind. Indeed, why represent the minority? Come on, (person's who's name has been removed. The individual is a minority however)....think about this one.

"Please Dear Lord,

Give us the help needed to keep you in our country!"

This is my all time favorite. Why? This country wasn't founded on God, it wasn't founded on religion being the driving force. That is what people were trying to get AWAY from. Persecution for their beliefs. And this isn't the same thing.

[Edi]

You should at the very least have learned to use the quote tags and to preview your posts beforehand. Right now they look atrocious and are likely to invoke an irritated response. I'm also not quite sure if these posts of yours are violating the SLAM me-too policies, but they are at the very least skirting close to it. Your being relatively new isn't going to help your case much if the powers that be get annoyed.

Edi

[General Zod]

This guy's just your average fundy moron that doesn't understand the concept of separation between church and state. Said laws are designed to regulate what the government can or cannot legally do in regards to religion. Not regulate what its individual members happen to believe or practice, or regulate holidays.

[Zero]

He can't seem to comprehend a difference between your personal life, and what you do on public property. I can't masturbate in class, but does that stop me from doing it at home? And people are allowed to pray in class, they just aren't allowed to force the whole class to.

[AK_Jedi]

That is a problem that all fundies seem to have. They think that the law has forbidden them from being religious while outside their homes. They can, and always will be able to pray in government building privately or in a small group. What the law says is that the government funded agency cannot lead people in prayer.

Besides, lay off thanksgiving. Just because praying before the big meal is a christian tradition doesn't make the holiday religious.

[wolveraptor]

Wait, he holds the fucking mail men responsible for government rulings on these things, so he thinks they shouldn't get days off regardless of their religion?

[CaptJodan]

You should at the very least have learned to use the quote tags and to preview your posts beforehand. Right now they look atrocious and are likely to invoke an irritated response.

I realize and apologize for the first post there that does look pretty bad. In my defense, after I saw it posted, I did redouble my efforts to make the second post more clear with proper quoting.

I'm also not quite sure if these posts of yours are violating the SLAM me-too policies, but they are at the very least skirting close to it. Your being relatively new isn't going to help your case much if the powers that be get annoyed.

Edi

I've seen a lot of individauls come in with debates or arguments they've had, asking for how they did, or asking for advice on how to do better, then posting the argument that was used. They've never been accused of me-tooing. How is this one different?

[CaptJodan]

Wait, he holds the fucking mail men responsible for government rulings on these things, so he thinks they shouldn't get days off regardless of their religion?

Apparently so. I suppose the individual who wrote this wanted to somehow convey that if the government were to impliment these changes that people would protest (their own workers) that they weren't getting off too or some shit.

Honestly, it's not very well thought out. The individaul probably DOESN'T want to see this happen, because it would lower the power of the church in the federal government. You thought "Happy Holidays" was a bitch? Wait till the government no longer recognizes Christmas and Easter as holidays for it's workers. You'd have every fundie nut job in America protesting that one. It doesn't make much sense because it would lower the exposure and power of the church in government.

What gets me about this is that the individaul who sent this out to me is on average an intelligent thoughtful person who usually is more moderate in her beliefs. When she sent it to me, she thought this was the greatest article. Unfortunately, if she read my response at all, she probably didn't gleam much from it.

[Darth Wong]

People like this don't understand that if something has both a secular and religious justification, it is therefore a reasonable part of secular law. He tries to paint it as an either/or situation.

[NecronLord]

Jesus H Christ. You could have fixed the format. In fact, I'll do it.

[Rye]

Give us the help needed to keep you in our country!

Your deity is meant to be omnipresent, no?

The rest is average nonsense, but this made me laugh.