Thrawn or Palleon?

[Stark]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Deary, deary me: it's attack of the n00bs. I'm not going to point out that Publius has been researching the EU and providing excellent synthesis for years, I'm just going to say that other sources indicate that P. gave the order himself, and none of the more experienced debators supporting his decision have claimed that he did not. Indeed, the description of the battle in your unreferenced quote is at odds with everything I've ever read about the battle of Endor. But hey, you must be right, right? RIGHT!

[atg]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Deary, deary me: it's attack of the n00bs. I'm not going to point out that Publius has been researching the EU and providing excellent synthesis for years, I'm just going to say that other sources indicate that P. gave the order himself, and none of the more experienced debators supporting his decision have claimed that he did not. Indeed, the description of the battle in your unreferenced quote is at odds with everything I've ever read about the battle of Endor. But hey, you must be right, right? RIGHT!

Whats with the n00bs bs, does higher postcount = automatically being right now?

The quote I gave is from Heir to the Empire, when I'm back home I'll even grab the page number for you. (sorry for not giving it in the first place)

"when Rebel forces disabled Teshik's ship, Captain Gilad Pellaeon of the Star Destroyer Chimaera ordered the fleet to retreat and regroup at Annaj, where the first signs of stress began to show" (note that the scribe writes in The New Essential Guide to Characters that "with the death of Admiral Piett and the absence of any Grand Admirals, Pellaeon's order made him the de facto fleet leader at Annaj"

I do apologise about forgetting this post by Publius. I'm a little weak on my canon right now which is higher the The New Essential Chronology or Heir to the Empire? I believe it is The New Essential Chronology, in which case I withdraw my previous statements.

[Stark]

Don't worry about being weak on sources: I wouldn't be caught dead reading a SW novel, so I rely entirely on sites like domuspublica and SWTC to gather information. This, unfortunately leaves me open to embarrassing moments if my indirect sources are wrong... but it's better than reading SW novels!

Anyway, that quote being from HttE is interesting. I actually assumed HttE was the source for the earlier quotes, and my digging hasn't been able to turn up references. Soooo... it looks bad for me! However the NEC isn't the only source for P. giving the order, I'm fairly certain.

Lopsided apologies for the insult, but we're on page four. If these conclusions were flawed, I would have assumed people would be attacking my position with quotes instead of trying to fit their conclusions into the agreed sequence of events. Maybe we're all wrong?

[Vaporous]

Don't worry about being weak on sources: I wouldn't be caught dead reading a SW novel, so I rely entirely on sites like domuspublica and SWTC to gather information. This, unfortunately leaves me open to embarrassing moments if my indirect sources are wrong... but it's better than reading SW novels!

Anyway, that quote being from HttE is interesting. I actually assumed HttE was the source for the earlier quotes, and my digging hasn't been able to turn up references. Soooo... it looks bad for me! However the NEC isn't the only source for P. giving the order, I'm fairly certain.

Lopsided apologies for the insult, but we're on page four. If these conclusions were flawed, I would have assumed people would be attacking my position with quotes instead of trying to fit their conclusions into the agreed sequence of events. Maybe we're all wrong?

Or maybe Pells action doesn't change from "tried to hold things together" to "ran screaming" until he met Daala, which puts it into the realm of KJA lunacy.

Regardless, here's what I find in the databank of starwars.com:

By the time of the Empire, Pellaeon was transferred to the Star Destroyer Chimaera, where he worked his way up the command chain, eventually serving as second-in-command. The Star Destroyer Chimaera was part of the Imperial fleet amassed at the Battle of Endor. When a concentrated assault by Rebel forces killed the ship's captain, Pellaeon seized command of the vessel as the Imperial Fleet was routed. All throughout the battle, Imperial officers were committing tactical blunders, choosing to go out in a blaze of glory than call for a prudent retreat. It was Pellaeon who issued the final order to withdraw, commanding the remnants of the fleet to regroup at Annaj.

A dedicated fleet officer, Pellaeon was not fueled by ambition or dreams of power. He was a soldier, not a politician, now serving an Empire without an Emperor. He struggled to maintain order, but many warship commanders refused to follow his leadership. The Empire splintered into scattered fiefdoms ruled by power-hungry warlords, with Pellaeon's small fleet retreating from the growing New Republic territories.

Pelleaon called the retreat, so we haven't been totally wasting our time.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/charac ... on/eu.html

[Stark]

But isn't that odd? It appears from the quote atg posted that there's a contradiction, with HttE saying he didn't and everything else saying he did.

EDIT - Maybe it's just a time thing, and P. responsibilty was added by some later EU source. The HttE source suggests it wasn't P., but doesn't expressly say it was anyone else.

[Vaporous]

But isn't that odd? It appears from the quote atg posted that there's a contradiction, with HttE saying he didn't and everything else saying he did.

EDIT - Maybe it's just a time thing, and P. responsibilty was added by some later EU source. The HttE source suggests it wasn't P., but doesn't expressly say it was anyone else.

Which is part of the problem with EU. None of the Grand Admirals we've discussed existed when Zahn wrote HttE. As years passed and the universe grew, more things got tacked on. So it becomes more difficult to keep the continuity together, though Pubilius has ground up more info from more sources then I knew existed (and I make a hobby of this, and love Zahns EU work.).

Edit: When I find my copy of HttE, I'll look a few things up. The battle is on Pelleaons mind quite often (he wonders two or three times what Enddor would have been like if Thrawn was on the Executor, specifically). He also discuss' it with Thrawn. It should be noted that Pelleaons information, even then, is a little off. Due to the Emperors secrecy alluded to earlier, Pellean belived Vader to be on the Executor directing the battle, an impression shared by most Imperials with the exception of Mara Jade, and probably Thrawn.

[Stark]

Yeah, Publius mentions that in many of his pages: it's one of the reasons I'm so impressed with his work. I'd literally have to read everything to be able to present the EU in such a holistic way.

[Shaidar Haran]

Further, all the claims of an impossible victory are totally scuppered by the fear the rebels had of any counterattack, even a laughably small one like two or three ISDs.

Which doesn't necessarily mean that the Rebels' fears are correct or justified. History is littered with examples of commanders being afraid, more than is ever warranted, because they didn't know better, were overly cautious, or overestimated the enemy. The Rebels have rarely, if ever, fought a major fleet action. They are guerillas and major set peice battles are anthema to that mindset. Naturally they would be fearful, doubly so as Ackbar is not a properly trained fleet commander.

Furthermore, there is the question of whether the Endor Fleet could have delivered a blow equivalent to that hypothetical counter-attack (assuming it could have been as effective as the Rebels fear). It is quite clear as Chris O'Farrel pointed out, that the loss of battle meditation, the collapse of regular communications channels, and the general losses of personnel and ships has demoralized the Fleet and they have lost unit cohesion. Battles have been lost with vastly superior forces simply because the chain of command had shattered. Once again I will point out the incredibly dramatic Battle of Samar as illustration of that point.

I'm not going to bother to point out that my opponents in this thread have ignored points raised and evidence quoted that support their position, so I'm going to assume they're lazy or incompetent.

Lazarus, I almost totally agree with you. I'm glad some of my opponents actually READ Publius' posts, and noticed that there is at least one source showing that P. *did* announce the death of his CO.

Ignoring his points are not the same as not agreeing with them or holding a different view of them. This is a debate after all. If there are points that you feel have been ignored why not bring them up instead of acting indignant on Publius's behalf.

However, P. rank is less important than his position, as he was not a commander of anything in the sense of being in charge. He may have outranked the commanders of other ships, but they are senior to him by virtue of being commanders, rather like Piett being assigned command over Grand Admirals, even though he was lower rank than them.

And again, I ask because I do not know, is this based on some precedent? Would that be how real world navies handle it? Or is there SW precedent?

I ask this again because it seems that Paelleon's authority was acknowledged at the battle. And Publius, who you are supporting, actually acknowledges that one Captain Dorja declined authority and deferred to Paelleon. Either Paelleon, illegally, countermanded officers who would be above him or no one was stepping up

With regards the speculation regarding Teshiks battle, I of course agree that the Rebels were trying to capture him. However, if my opponents view of rebel strength are correct (ie, it was a hopeless battle for more than a dozen ISDs) it is absurd that it would take hours to even disable his ship, given such a massive disparity.

It is abusrd to think that Teshik fought an effective, ongoing action for three hours on top of the four or five hours that he had already been fighting. It is absurd to think that a ship could be fighting, and taking damage, for four hours and then stand off an entire fleet for a further three.

That is why I believe that the ship was disabled and boarded; the Rebel boarding action taking up most of those three hours. An Imperator-class star destroyer carrying more marines and naval ratings than the size of many small municipalities would of course take a good deal of time to subdue.

[Lazarus]

"when Rebel forces disabled Teshik's ship, Captain Gilad Pellaeon of the Star Destroyer Chimaera ordered the fleet to retreat and regroup at Annaj, where the first signs of stress began to show" (note that the scribe writes in The New Essential Guide to Characters that "with the death of Admiral Piett and the absence of any Grand Admirals, Pellaeon's order made him the de facto fleet leader at Annaj"

Hold on a second, doesn't this suggest that it was AFTER Teshiks ship was disabled that Pellaeon ordered the retreat? At this point therefore, command would have moved from Teshik to the next flagship, being the Chimaera, and Pellaeon. As Shaidar just said, evidence has yet to be provided that Pellaeon was lower in the CoC than the other CO's, and Captain Dorja clearly deferred to him. Hence, when Pellaeon saw the Eleemosynary had been disabled, he ordered the retreat as the next in the CoC, making it a legal decision. The '3 hour' figure for Teshik fighting on would therefore be holding off boarding actions.
IMO, if this is the case then the only remaining question is why did Pellaeon order the fleet all the way to Annaj, which I can't come up with an answer for at present time.

[SCVN 2812]

Its worth mentioning that the battle may have become so wide spread after the destruction of the Death Star and Executor and the break down of the chain of command with the Imperials that it dissolved into a series of on and off skirmishes between elements of the Imperial and Rebel fleets throughout the system. Ships or small groups of cooperating forces might pull back to lick their wounds before returning to the fight or even using terrain such as Endor itself to temporarily break line of sight for a quick breather before Rebel ships appear over the horizon.

A 4 hour plus battle precludes such idiocy as the two fleets just sitting around shooting at each other like two age of sail frigate lines until too many of one side or the other explodes and the rest run away.

[atg]

Two questions came to mind:

Is it possible that XO's on Star Destroyers could actually be of captains rank?
In The Bacta War the XO on one of the destroyers has previously been in command of a frigate or a corvette, I forget which.

So in theory, instead of moving straight from command position to command position, the Captain of say an Interdictor, becomes the XO of a Star Destroyer to 'learn the ropes' of having such a up size in ship, but keep captains rank?

Similar to the Soviet Navy where they had captain 3rd rank, captain 1st rank and such. I recall hearing that an engineering officer could actually outrank his captain but not be allowed to command the ship, only officers from the navigators line could.

Or could there be a system similar to the British colonial system where officers can hold 'local' ranks higher than there empire-wide rank.
eg a Lieutenant-Colonel in South Africa could have a 'local' full Colonel rank that was in effect in South Africa only, anywhere else he was of the lower rank.

The same could happen here on a sector by sector basis.

If one of these is possible then if Pellaeon did give the order to retreat, which it seems he did exept for the HttE, then he could actually have a rank higher than the other captains he ordered, of course it would have to have taken place after Teshik's ship was put out of action.

BTW the quote I gave from HttE is on page 3

[Stark]

Shaidar, the timeline of events as I see it indicated fours hours for the battle TOTAL, with the overall retreat taking place an hour in. Teshik is captured at the end of the fourth hour overall, not seven hours. It's still nuts, but he *is* a Grand Admiral and the rebels, it seems, lost most of their heavy units in the earlier battle to the DS2 and close combat.

[Shaidar Haran]

Shaidar, the timeline of events as I see it indicated fours hours for the battle TOTAL, with the overall retreat taking place an hour in.

You're right, I seem to have made a mistake and thought the three hours was meant as an adittional number.

Teshik is captured at the end of the fourth hour overall, not seven hours. It's still nuts, but he *is* a Grand Admiral and the rebels, it seems, lost most of their heavy units in the earlier battle to the DS2 and close combat.

The problem is that loss of heavy units does not square at all with what we know. As Chris O'Farrel has pointed out, the Rebels have no less than three pocket battleships surviving. And the numbers of casulties and damage argue that the Rebels are not that badly off, espcially considering Grand Admiral Continuity Error and the Retcon must have taken battle damage as well. Therefor it seems all but impossible to assume that the battle lasted for three hours because of Rebel weakness.

I think it's quite likely that contrary Publius's assumption, the Grand Admiral's ship was disable or at least seriously damaged. That the New Republic's account squares at least loosely. Then those three hours were like the Bismarck's last stand, long and drawn out but with only one conclusion. The Unpronouncable simply attempting and eventually failing to fend off being disabled and eventually boarded.

* * *

As a note, this is why I have come to loathe much of the EU. The disregard for established continuity, the repetitive reinvention of key events, and a generally fan-fic like quality. I find it quite sad really that the most creative and interesting writers are consistently sidelined in favor of bad ones.

[Lazarus]

Is there actually any direct contradictory evidence for Teshiks ship being disabled, and THEN Pellaeon giving the order to retreat, because thats the impression given in the quote in my last post.
Surely it fits quite nicely that the sequence of events were approximately as follows, concerning the CoC:

The Executor is destroyed, along with Piett, his XO, and the other command officers on board. Command is transferred to Admiral Harrsk.
DS2 destroyed.
Admiral Harrsk is wounded, and his ship damaged. Teshik takes command of the Eleemosynary, and command is transferred to him.
The Eleemosynary is disabled, contact with Teshik is lost. Command is transferred to the Chimaera and Pellaeons CO, or if he is already dead, then directly to Pellaeon, as the now-commanding officer aboard the now-flagship. Seeing the fleet coming apart at the seams, and that all chance of regaining the initiative is lost, he orders a retreat. The other CO's defer to him, showing he is correct in taking command.
The Imperial fleet retreats to Annaj.
The Eleemosynary is boarded, and 3 hours later Teshik is taken prisoner.
I may have the placing of the DS destruction misplaced as before Teshik takes command of the Eleemosynary, and perhaps the fleet, but it has little effect. Otherwise, is there anything to disprove this?

[Publius]

According to "Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals":

When the Imperial retreat was called, Teshik stayed behind. As a testament to Teshik's brilliance, the battle raged for another three hours before his Star Destroyer Eleemosynary succumbed to overwhelming ion cannon fire.

"Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals," unlike The New Essential Chronology, is not written from an in-universe perspective. Consequently, when its external statement that Teshik remained for three hours after the retreat contradicts the Historical Council's claim that he remained in command for four hours before the retreat, it is the Historical Council's claim that must yield, being notionally advanced by in-universe characters. Teshik's ship was disabled by ion cannonfire three hours after the retreat was called.

[000]

Not to mention that, as of the pubilcation of the NEC, the GA is cuddling up to Pellaeon and Na'al would have every reason to make him look good... plus, Na'al isn't exactly known for being unbiased in his 'historical reports.'

[Stark]

Shaidar, its worth considering that for SW ships, 'surviving' and being present to protect Endor from DS-bits and later in the EU doesn't mean that the ships weren't almost useless in the battle itself. They may have exhausted their fuel (very possible given the fuel tankage and power outputs common in SW) they may have had many of their weapons disabled or destroyed (temporary shield outages, fighter action, superior Imperial heavy weapon density) and whatnot. We see at the end of ROTJ that some of their heavies were still n existence, but whether they were in any shape to chase down Teshik or fight off a counterattack is completely different. I don't recall how quickly a SW ship can use all its fuel when it's accelerating and using max weapon power, but it's not very long and certainly in the 'hours'.

And yes, the EU sucks. But Publius' work makes it much more palatable and interesting, so I figure if I never actually read the books I'm better off. I don't want SW novel standard soap-opera nonsense.

[Shaidar Haran]

According to "Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals":

When the Imperial retreat was called, Teshik stayed behind. As a testament to Teshik's brilliance, the battle raged for another three hours before his Star Destroyer Eleemosynary succumbed to overwhelming ion cannon fire.

"Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals," unlike The New Essential Chronology, is not written from an in-universe perspective. Consequently, when its external statement that Teshik remained for three hours after the retreat contradicts the Historical Council's claim that he remained in command for four hours before the retreat, it is the Historical Council's claim that must yield, being notionally advanced by in-universe characters. Teshik's ship was disabled by ion cannonfire three hours after the retreat was called.

I understand the difference between them. Never the less, how raging can a battle be when it's one middling weight class ship against a whole fleet? Unless we resort to fanboy fantasy, I feel that we can safely say that some manuvering and the act of disabling it (as the very document says that they did) probably account for it more than anything.

And, from strictly the sources in this thread, believe that it is possible that the Grand Admiral was in command for four hours and then held on afterwards. But I freely admit I have not read the EU particularly extensively and not at all for a number of years.

Shaidar, its worth considering that for SW ships, 'surviving' and being present to protect Endor from DS-bits and later in the EU doesn't mean that the ships weren't almost useless in the battle itself. They may have exhausted their fuel (very possible given the fuel tankage and power outputs common in SW) they may have had many of their weapons disabled or destroyed (temporary shield outages, fighter action, superior Imperial heavy weapon density) and whatnot. We see at the end of ROTJ that some of their heavies were still n existence, but whether they were in any shape to chase down Teshik or fight off a counterattack is completely different. I don't recall how quickly a SW ship can use all its fuel when it's accelerating and using max weapon power, but it's not very long and certainly in the 'hours'.

I don't know that their tankage is that limited. The Millenium Falcon surely has much less tankage yet can operate for days or weeks, including battle with out tanking.

Regardless, any battle damage and fuel shortage is probably going to apply strongly to the ISD. Maybe not equally but the difference can't be that great.

[Stark]

Shaidar, I mean 'full accelleration, full power through weapons'. Duration at maximum output is very limited (unsurprising given physical limitations on mass-energy on their ludicrously powerful weapons. Full burn (giving thousands of Gs to mile-long ships) also sucks down the 'hypermatter'. Ender has more accurate battle durations, I believe: ships rarely use full speed and full firepower for extended periods due to this issue.

The same fuel that is consumed in the Endor battle probably would've taken all the ships from one side of the galaxy and back.

Further, whatever you think of Rebel ships of the Calamari type, ISDs are likely to be more efficient as warships.

[Rogue 9]

More efficient, yes, but an efficient destroyer fighting a redundantly designed heavy cruiser is still going to lose.

[Stark]

Good thing the odds weren't even then eh? It's pretty odd how few weapons were modelled onto something as large as the Home One-type, but you never get a clear look at it onscreen so I guess it doesn't matter.

[Lazarus]

What exactly is this Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals? Is it included in one of the source books or what?

[Shaidar Haran]

Shaidar, I mean 'full accelleration, full power through weapons'. Duration at maximum output is very limited (unsurprising given physical limitations on mass-energy on their ludicrously powerful weapons. Full burn (giving thousands of Gs to mile-long ships) also sucks down the 'hypermatter'. Ender has more accurate battle durations, I believe: ships rarely use full speed and full firepower for extended periods due to this issue.

The same fuel that is consumed in the Endor battle probably would've taken all the ships from one side of the galaxy and back.

You're probably right that they have exhausted a good deal of their bunkerage. But I doubt they're so low that it became as much of handicap as you seem to indicate. If nothing else because both sides are probably going to have suffered at about the same rate; the Imperials may actually have had it worse with their greater heavy weapons density (as you point out).

I'd be curious to see Ender's numbers if you can find them. It would be interesting to get that kind of detail and the sources for it. Those kind of performance numbers would be a very nice yardstick for evaluating the various warship types.

Further, whatever you think of Rebel ships of the Calamari type, ISDs are likely to be more efficient as warships.

They'll certainly have more brute power but I'm not so sure that it means they'll be more effecient as warships. They're ideal for patrol and smaller engagements but they may lack staying power and the ability to absorb damage in a prolonged fleet engagement.

Good thing the odds weren't even then eh? It's pretty odd how few weapons were modelled onto something as large as the Home One-type, but you never get a clear look at it onscreen so I guess it doesn't matter.

Good thing Ackbar ruthlessly cut down the Imperial advantages in the battle then, isn't it? The Rebels quite effectively cut and re-cut Imperial communications and did severe damage to the chain of command. With the Empire's overreliance on central control and the denial of personal initiative that meant the Imperial fleet rapidly fell apart.

I would also point out that despite their lesser armament and armour, the Mon Cal ships were supposed to have better and more redundant shielding, more redudancies of critical systems, and a better armored subdivision within the armor belts. As the German dreadnaughts and battlecruisers of WW1 showed, that sort of protection can often trump superior firepower; the golden BB is not as rare as people think. Once critical system are gone for good, superior firepower doesn't count for much. The Rebels might have had less guns but it seems likely they kept them going for longer.

[Stark]

Re effciency I was suggesting that whatever availible technology there is to increase fuel mass and reduce waste, improve cooling and maximum firepower, would be in an ISD and not necessarily a backwater converted terrorist barge.

But please, lets not pull out the 'lolz centric command' bullshit. None of the rebels expected to survive. Noone planned to destroy the Executor. Aside from praying Han would somehow get the shield down, the rebels intended simply to make good account of themselves, not wipe the floor with the Imps using their super cruisers of doom.

And frankly, I simply don't care what games say about MonCals. I'm not sure what the consensus is (since it's been debated before), but if they're converted liners (ha) they will suck pound-for-pound, and if they're dedicated warships they seem poorly designed and lightly armed. Ships of the 1200m Liberty-type would not be equal to an ISD, and they only had a max of two Home Ones. Yeah, great odds, when they couldn't even match numbers. I disregard CRVs and FFs out of hand as largely irrelevant.

Don't you think it's odd they'll make an EU novel out of anything Han Solo said, but the 'Executor is having problems before the battle even started' thing is left alone? I mean, that's pretty serious scope for some kind of sabotage.

[Noble Ire]

And frankly, I simply don't care what games say about MonCals. I'm not sure what the consensus is (since it's been debated before), but if they're converted liners (ha) they will suck pound-for-pound, and if they're dedicated warships they seem poorly designed and lightly armed. Ships of the 1200m Liberty-type would not be equal to an ISD, and they only had a max of two Home Ones. Yeah, great odds, when they couldn't even match numbers. I disregard CRVs and FFs out of hand as largely irrelevant.

How do you figure? The shot of the Rebel fleet pulling back from the Death Star shows numerous warships that are easily that size.