The Kilrathi vs. the Klingons!!

[Dark Primus]

The Kilrathi Empire had several hundred systems. How many do the Klingons have? Is the Klingon Empire larger than the Federation in ST, or the same size? And didn't the Federation only have some 150 systems or so? My impression was that they were similarly sized, which would leave the Klingons outnumbered two to one on systems and by a lot more than that in the fleet department.

Edi

Federation has 150 member worlds but each member worlds can have from ten to a hundread colonies, it is totally unknown.

[Master of Ossus]

I think that the Klingon Empire is larger than that of the Kilrathi

The Kilrathi Empire had several hundred systems. How many do the Klingons have? Is the Klingon Empire larger than the Federation in ST, or the same size? And didn't the Federation only have some 150 systems or so? My impression was that they were similarly sized, which would leave the Klingons outnumbered two to one on systems and by a lot more than that in the fleet department.

Edi

You're probably right, although the 150 systems has often been seen as being either habitable or important systems. With your information, though, it DOES look like the Kilrathi are bigger. Larger numbers, better technology, stronger on the ground, and smarter leads us all to one conclusion: Kilrathi over Klingons in straight sets.

[Bob McDob]

Excuse me if I play devil's advocate for a moment, as the prevailing viewpoint here seems to be "well they have more systems so they win!!!!!" with no regard whatsoever to population . . .

Wing Commander is way above ST too in terms of firepower and shields and such.

You mean the 8 MT torpedo estimates? I love how you don't back that up with evidence or even explanations of any kind.

Since we know that a torp has a multi-megaton warhead and since we also know the damage a torp inflicts, here are calcs for minimum and maximun calcs of some WC3-4 era weapons. The literal stats depend on how much is multi-megaton. I have organized a brief chart with, hopefully, some realistic calcs. The max value for the torp is rounded to 1gt:

Capship and Skipper missles, 60mt-30gt.
Mark IV torp, 2mt-1gt. (999mt)
Mark III torp, 8mt-4gt.
Anti-Matter guns 300kt-150mt (per shot).
Flash-pak, 10mt-5gt(in game) 60mt-30gt(strategy guide values).
Imrec, 450kt-225mt. A single triton warhead is 475kt for comparison
FF, 250kt-125mt.
Javelin, 400kt-200mt.
Dumbfire, 800kt-400mt.
Mace, 1mt-500mt.
Coneburst, 100kt-50mt.
T-bomb, 267.5mt.
guns
laser, 18kt-9mt (figures are per shot)
ion, 32kt-16mt
tachyon, 70kt-35mt... oh well, I do not think I need to list every gun.

These calculations represent the minimum and maximun yields of several weapons. No scientific calculations are neccesary. The high end calcs are highly improbable. While this is a vary large range, this will give a good idea of weapon power.

[Master of Ossus]

Ships in Wing Commander have been seen to be able to destroy large cities using anti-matter rockets, similar to torpedoes used in ST. More importantly, the Excalibur destroyed Kilrah by itself. No capital ship in ST (with the POSSIBLE exception of the Scimitar) has demonstrated anywhere near that firepower, and the Scimitar is a capital ship. The Kilrathi have been fighting the Terrans to a standstill for decades. They obviously have technology that is ahead of the Confederation in some areas, but laggin slightly in others. Their ships would probably be able to defeat Klingon warships in numbers-even situations. I see no way that the Klingons would be able to match the Kilrathi on the ground or in space.

[CJvR]

IMO the Klingons would have plenty of new rugs.

The Kilrahti would thrash the Klingons in almost any battle where the cats have a carrier battle group and not unreasonable inferior numbers but the restriction to fixed hyperspace routes and non existant rear-area protection will be murder against a fleet able to move at will anywhere. Tarawa, a CVL with a minimal escort and ~40 fighters thrashed Kilrahs defences. The Klingon fleet would burn the cats homeworlds to a crisp and without support the surviving Kilrathi fleets wouldn't be able to return the favor.

[Master of Ossus]

IMO the Klingons would have plenty of new rugs.

The Kilrahti would thrash the Klingons in almost any battle where the cats have a carrier battle group and not unreasonable inferior numbers but the restriction to fixed hyperspace routes and non existant rear-area protection will be murder against a fleet able to move at will anywhere. Tarawa, a CVL with a minimal escort and ~40 fighters thrashed Kilrahs defences. The Klingon fleet would burn the cats homeworlds to a crisp and without support the surviving Kilrathi fleets wouldn't be able to return the favor.

How? The Klingons have never demonstrated an ability to destroy a civilized planet, before.

[LordShaithis]

The one thing that could give the Kilrathi trouble is their dependence on jump points. Once the Klingons figure out what those are, they'll be waiting to ambush the cats as they come through. Don't think it will matter in the end though.

[Master of Ossus]

The one thing that could give the Kilrathi trouble is their dependence on jump points. Once the Klingons figure out what those are, they'll be waiting to ambush the cats as they come through. Don't think it will matter in the end though.

They already do things like that in WC and it never seems to be a problem. The other thing that they do is trapping ships so they have no way back to jump points. This effectively cripples the fleet's mobility. While doable, this relies on two things.

1. Lack of surveilance by enemy forces. Jump capable ships are usually sent through to scout jump points before bringing the rest of the fleet in. This is only not done when stealth and surprise are needed, and a fighter might betray the presence of an important group of ships, or when speed is essential.
2. Even in an ambush, ambushing ships must either be able to win an engagement with whatever forces come through the jump gate, or they must be able to withdraw before the enemy can do more damage to the ambushers than he has sustained. This means that the Klingons would have to essentially guess where the Kilrathi were moving their forces and deploy significant assets there in the hopes that the Kilrathi stumbled upon the wrong system. This is unfeasible in a large conflict.

The only thing that the Klingons could do that would allow them to use this disadvantage of the Kilrathi would be to win a significant battle and then prevent the Kilrathi fleet (that has just lost) from fleeing to a jump point. The Klingon's ability to do this seems to be dubious because the Kilrathi seem to move VERY large fleets in offensive situations, instead of smaller fleets that would be easier to pick off.

[Bob McDob]

More importantly, the Excalibur destroyed Kilrah by itself.

It was the Temblor bomb, not the Excalibur itself . . . and it only works in limited situations, extremely geologically unstable planets. The yield of the bomb itself is about 267.5 MT (load up WCIII, it's on one of the briefings) but it doesn't seem to work on anything other than fault lines . . . it's nothing like a conventional weapon.

Tarawa, a CVL with a minimal escort and ~40 fighters thrashed Kilrahs defences. .

That was both because they had the element of surprise and because most of the Kilrathi fleet was currently engaged in a humongous diversionary fleet battle at Vukar Tag. That and the Kilrathi's arrogance over their homeworld's security - after all, they were winning the war. It's based on the Doolittle Raid - they even credit him in the front of the book!

[Master of Ossus]

But, a fighter-sized weapon with a yield in the 250 megaton range is a significant advantage over even quantum torpedoes, and the Kilrathi have approximately equal technology to the Terrans (it's worse in some fields, better in others). This again reinforces the point that the Klingons would lose, since their weapons do not appear to have the firepower that quantum torpedoes offer the Federation.

[Bob McDob]

At this point it's worth asking whether the Kilrathi are -pre or -post WCIII era, since advances in armor tech during Privateer boosted durasteel ratings by a factor of about ten . . .

[CJvR]

"How? The Klingons have never demonstrated an ability to destroy a civilized planet, before."

No need to get to advanced, old fasion nukes will do quite nicely. Even if the Klingons aren't Nobel prize candidates they should be able to build those.


"That was both because they had the element of surprise and because most of the Kilrathi fleet was currently engaged in a humongous diversionary fleet battle at Vukar Tag."

Well if the Kilrathi fleets stay home they will surely lose. Warp drives will give the Klingons access to the entire Kilrahti empire and will give the Klingons excelent oppertunities in tactical combat as well. Against the cats stuff like the Picard maneuver might actually work. A short warp burst will evade a fighter strike etc... The whimpy weapons will be the Klingons main problem, the warp drives and the maintanence intensive WC ships their main advantages.

"That and the Kilrathi's arrogance over their homeworld's security - after all, they were winning the war."

Yes they thought their rear areas were secure, against the Klingons they wont be and the Kilrathi will not have any safe rear areas in this fight, that will cripple their fleet strenght and they probably wont be able to protect enough to win anyway even if their fleets stay home.

"It's based on the Doolittle Raid - they even credit him in the front of the book!"

The Tarawa raid was nothing like the Doolittle Raid. Tarawa smashed the local defences, conducted landing operations and wasn't ejected until frontline forces returned to chase them away. That's alot different from launching long range bombers and running before the local defences whipe you out.

[LordShaithis]

The only thing the Klingons have going for them is a vastly superior propulsion system. (In terms of combat usefulness, at least. I'm not sure how fast WC jump drives are.) However, I still think the firepower deficit is too huge for it to alter the final outcome.

[Master of Ossus]

So.... good old "fasion" nuclear weapons will destroy a planet. Why, then, did it take hours for a fleet of ST vessels to damage 30% of a planet's surface? The Klingons clearly do not have the ability to effectively destroy planets. In WC, starfighter-class weapons can do that. There is an enormous firepower disparity, here. The Klingons cannot out fight an enemy with such a huge advantage. The Kilrathi would destroy their industrial complexes, and the Klingons would be unable to mount any defense except for a weak offensive (by WC standards). They would be wiped out. They have no advantages on the ground, and spectacular disadvantages. In space, both sides have some advantages, but the Kilrathi have the firepower/shield trump-card. Please note that the only time a Klingon group would be able to launch an effective ambush around a jump point would be after they had already won a battle-something that likely would never happen. WC also has advantages in targeting and armor. The Klingons would be overwhelmed.

[Bob McDob]

"It's based on the Doolittle Raid - they even credit him in the front of the book!"

The Tarawa raid was nothing like the Doolittle Raid. Tarawa smashed the local defences, conducted landing operations and wasn't ejected until frontline forces returned to chase them away. That's alot different from launching long range bombers and running before the local defences whipe you out.

I said it was based on it, not modeled around it. Action Stations is based on Pearl Harbor, yet Japanese and American battlewagons never duked it out around Diamond Head while carrier planes fought off an invasion of Hawaii.

(In terms of combat usefulness, at least. I'm not sure how fast WC jump drives are.)

They're instantanious, but the ships can only use conventional, i.e. hydrogen scoops to maneuver in-system. They move at several thousand kilometers per second like this.

(Some jump points are very long - in Action Stations it's mentioned that some cross over more than 8² systems).

In general, the bigger the star, the more jump points there are. Anomolies like quasars, pulsars and black holes can be jumped, but there's no telling where and if you'll end up.

[LordShaithis]

The speed of the actual jump isn't what matters. What matters is how long it takes to charge between jumps, and the maximum range of a single jump. :)

[Peregrin Toker]

So.... good old "fasion" nuclear weapons will destroy a planet. Why, then, did it take hours for a fleet of ST vessels to damage 30% of a planet's surface? The Klingons clearly do not have the ability to effectively destroy planets

Actually, with the amount of nuclear weapons present on the earth today, we can blow up several earth-sized planets... so what limits the Klingons from doing?? Their antiquated code of honour??

[Dark Primus]

Actually, with the amount of nuclear weapons present on the earth today, we can blow up several earth-sized planets... so what limits the Klingons from doing?? Their antiquated code of honour??

LOL Yeah right. Not even all Earth combined nukes or dynamites or any other explosives would not even come close to the 10 kilometer wide asteroid that killed the Dinosaurs 65 million years ago. It had a destructive power of 100 million megatons and still animals and plant life survived.

[Master of Ossus]

The speed of the actual jump isn't what matters. What matters is how long it takes to charge between jumps, and the maximum range of a single jump.

The maximum range between jumps is unlimited, but jump points are sometimes difficult to reach. The charge time between jumps is negligible, because the limiting factor is how long it takes WC ships to arrive at different jump points.

[Peregrin Toker]

Actually, with the amount of nuclear weapons present on the earth today, we can blow up several earth-sized planets... so what limits the Klingons from doing?? Their antiquated code of honour??

LOL Yeah right. Not even all Earth combined nukes or dynamites or any other explosives would not even come close to the 10 kilometer wide asteroid that killed the Dinosaurs 65 million years ago. It had a destructive power of 100 million megatons and still animals and plant life survived.

I CLEARLY remember reading in a book called The ABC of War (direct translation from its danish title, Krigens ABC) that there are enough nuclear weapons on the earth in order to blow up several earth-sized planet. However, I currently can't remember who wrote that book.

[Dark Primus]

I CLEARLY remember reading in a book called The ABC of War (direct translation from its danish title, Krigens ABC) that there are enough nuclear weapons on the earth in order to blow up several earth-sized planet. However, I currently can't remember who wrote that book.

Clearly then they don't know what they are talking about. Not all Worlds combined nuclear/atomic/hydrogen bombs would only be few Gigatons at most. Not enough to serious damage on Earth, egological damages, yes but it won't shatter the planet if you know what i mean.

[Peregrin Toker]

Clearly then they don't know what they are talking about. Not all Worlds combined nuclear/atomic/hydrogen bombs would only be few Gigatons at most. Not enough to serious damage on Earth, egological damages, yes but it won't shatter the planet if you know what i mean.

The book was quite old... probably from the 1970s or the 1980s.... perhaps there were many more nuclear weapons in existance at that time??

I know that nuclear arms stockpiles have been reduced in size since then, but I don't think they have been reduced THAT much....

Anyway, if all the explosives - nuclear and ordinary - on the earth currently detonated, what would be the results??

[Dark Primus]

Clearly then they don't know what they are talking about. Not all Worlds combined nuclear/atomic/hydrogen bombs would only be few Gigatons at most. Not enough to serious damage on Earth, egological damages, yes but it won't shatter the planet if you know what i mean.

The book was quite old... probably from the 1970s or the 1980s.... perhaps there were many more nuclear weapons in existance at that time??

I know that nuclear arms stockpiles have been reduced in size since then, but I don't think they have been reduced THAT much....

Anyway, if all the explosives - nuclear and ordinary - on the earth currently detonated, what would be the results??

Probably a nuclear winter. There be still maybe 10,000 nukes left world wide at most. I believe USA had at most 6,000, Russia/Soviet maybe 5,000 or something, i am not so sure. Large number of those were below one megaton. Not all were to be city destroyers but more likely to take out enemy bases and fortifactions and that sort of thing, and for that you don't need multimegaton warheads.

[Master of Ossus]

I CLEARLY remember reading in a book called The ABC of War (direct translation from its danish title, Krigens ABC) that there are enough nuclear weapons on the earth in order to blow up several earth-sized planet. However, I currently can't remember who wrote that book.

Clearly then they don't know what they are talking about. Not all Worlds combined nuclear/atomic/hydrogen bombs would only be few Gigatons at most. Not enough to serious damage on Earth, egological damages, yes but it won't shatter the planet if you know what i mean.

That is not even enough to wipe out all complex life on Earth, and is FAR from desrtoying a planet.

[Bob McDob]

That is not even enough to wipe out all complex life on Earth, and is FAR from desrtoying a planet.

It is, however, quite enough to Blow Lots Of Shit Up.

Besides, I don't understand the point of this . . . I don't remember the Kilrathi blowing up planets, unless you mean Fleet Action, and to my knowledge they only blew up several Earth defence cities.

Like I didn't say before, though, I never read Fleet Action.