Psionics and other varient magics in D&D.

[SirNitram]

Ah, so you're not just a munchkin, you've normalized to Monty Haul's where no effort is needed on magical items.

VOP poverty comes close to what the characters should have in a standered campain.

What the fuck is this 'standard' you preach about? A 'standard' campaign does not spit out perfectly optimized items towards a CO board build; the only 'standard' could be that from the DMG tables, which produce random magical items, and have a bias towards limited-use items, and which will certainly make it unlikely that your average player has this sort of spread.

Bullshit, plain and simple. Why? Because no non-epic item can grant a bonus to a stat of +6 or +8 before Epic, and a VOP Monk gets both of those.

You mean like the half dozen items in the DMG that provide +6 to a stat for less than 40k? Wonder what happens if that character if he buys a tomb or manual +2, Let's see 6 plus 2 is 8. Intresting on how that worked.

The chances of that are ridiculously low unless they build them, and both are, when handled by any sensible DM, difficult to make. Why? Because they award several levels worth of bonuses immediately.

Imbecile. Or liar. Whichever you'd prefer to walk around with. Your pathetic arguments are simply digging your hole deeper. Shut the fuck up.

As opposed to you who thinks a +8 bonus has to be equaled from a single souce, and thought that a +6 boost to a stat was an fucking epic item.

oh noes, he made a minor, one point mistake! Is that the best you can do, child? Defend your bullshit by nitpicking while running away from the point?

What's this 'standard', by the way? The only one I know of it rolling up treasure for adventures from the DMG tables; the only way you would reliably get the sort of boosts you want to insist are 'standard' is that instead of levelling up and finding gear or going on quests to make it, you just fed-ex yourself stuff off the list to the 'new starting players' suggestions. Which is bullshit.

[lance]

Hmmm. Missed the 5HD. Conceeded.

The trap the soul is not a death effect. It is specifically described as not a death effect and death ward does not stop it.

There are a few good protections from energy drain and you won't always have them on and then don't always grant immunity. Neither will monsters, which part of the point. When the demilich can spam a non-death effect, instant kill that inflicts negative levels when you make the save, that's fucking brutal. It can disjoin, dispell or overload protections while laughing off any attempt to harm and dropping more spells or soul eating.

I highly doubt it will be dispelling anything with its caster level loss. And if it disjoins then the entire party is out loot. Which will leave it in a worst
eventually. And a party will have buffs going during a large percentage of the fights.

If it exists on the planet then they can track it down. And the wizard should have shapechange going over a half the time.

Again you are assuming they can easily get their hands on any gear they want and always have the right spells running. Your dream item doesn't always exist in the magic store, waiting for you to shell out the cash. It isn't necessarily carried by the next foe you meet. I slogged through 9 levels through the City of the Spider Queen and it sure as hell would have been easier if I could just tailor the loot to order. Guess what, the game doesn't work that way. Does your DM go by the name bitch and allow you to get away with this shit? [/quote

] When a spell lasts 10minutes per level and your fucking over 30th level, then yes the spells should be on. As for buying items, that is campain specific.

Critical hit immunity is a nice bonus, one which is especially difficult for wizards and sorcerers to get, and it stacks with high AC, fast speed, near magic immunity, immunity to most weapons, elemental resistance, and healing at will to make the demilich virtually unkillable.

With the exception of the AC a wizard can have all of that easily.

Bullshit. A lot of those are hard to get in a reasonably run campaign, which I'm guesing you avoid playing in like the plague. They also suck up item slots, which a demilich can load with lots of useful items and get even more heinous. The items and the lich, can't have these protections stripped by a dispel and any items are stored safely away with the phylactery, which prevents them from being hammered by a disjunction or other nastiness.

[/quote] The protection is provided by spells, and any character that is as intelegent as a wizard is going to figure this shit out. And like it leaving it's shit a half a planet away won't eventually be exploitid by an intellegent foe.

[lance]

Ah, so you're not just a munchkin, you've normalized to Monty Haul's where no effort is needed on magical items.

VOP poverty comes close to what the characters should have in a standered campain.

What the fuck is this 'standard' you preach about? A 'standard' campaign does not spit out perfectly optimized items towards a CO board build; the only 'standard' could be that from the DMG tables, which produce random magical items, and have a bias towards limited-use items, and which will certainly make it unlikely that your average player has this sort of spread

The chart in the DMG that says character wealth by level, and the section that gives the GP limit by town size.

Bullshit, plain and simple. Why? Because no non-epic item can grant a bonus to a stat of +6 or +8 before Epic, and a VOP Monk gets both of those.

You mean like the half dozen items in the DMG that provide +6 to a stat for less than 40k? Wonder what happens if that character if he buys a tomb or manual +2, Let's see 6 plus 2 is 8. Intresting on how that worked.

The chances of that are ridiculously low unless they build them, and both are, when handled by any sensible DM, difficult to make. Why? Because they award several levels worth of bonuses immediately.

Again both of those items will most likely be available in a large city.

Imbecile. Or liar. Whichever you'd prefer to walk around with. Your pathetic arguments are simply digging your hole deeper. Shut the fuck up.

As opposed to you who thinks a +8 bonus has to be equaled from a single souce, and thought that a +6 boost to a stat was an fucking epic item.

oh noes, he made a minor, one point mistake! Is that the best you can do, child? Defend your bullshit by nitpicking while running away from the point?

What's this 'standard', by the way? The only one I know of it rolling up treasure for adventures from the DMG tables; the only way you would reliably get the sort of boosts you want to insist are 'standard' is that instead of levelling up and finding gear or going on quests to make it, you just fed-ex yourself stuff off the list to the 'new starting players' suggestions. Which is bullshit.

Again the standard allows for the purchase if items, up to 100k in a metropolis.

[SirNitram]

VOP poverty comes close to what the characters should have in a standered campain.

What the fuck is this 'standard' you preach about? A 'standard' campaign does not spit out perfectly optimized items towards a CO board build; the only 'standard' could be that from the DMG tables, which produce random magical items, and have a bias towards limited-use items, and which will certainly make it unlikely that your average player has this sort of spread

The chart in the DMG that says character wealth by level, and the section that gives the GP limit by town size.

You're a fucking imbecile. The GP limit does not equate 'Any magical item you need is handed to you'. Indeed, as any number of sourcebooks state, unless you're in fucking Netheril you're not gonna buy permenant magical items outside of some very special cases.(Indeed, that's a fucking plot point in Faerun, where the Red Wizards are making money hand over shackle for offering little +1 things)

You mean like the half dozen items in the DMG that provide +6 to a stat for less than 40k? Wonder what happens if that character if he buys a tomb or manual +2, Let's see 6 plus 2 is 8. Intresting on how that worked.

The chances of that are ridiculously low unless they build them, and both are, when handled by any sensible DM, difficult to make. Why? Because they award several levels worth of bonuses immediately.

Again both of those items will most likely be available in a large city.

Not in 'standard'. By standard, of course, we mean adhering to published materials.

Imbecile. Or liar. Whichever you'd prefer to walk around with. Your pathetic arguments are simply digging your hole deeper. Shut the fuck up.

As opposed to you who thinks a +8 bonus has to be equaled from a single souce, and thought that a +6 boost to a stat was an fucking epic item.

oh noes, he made a minor, one point mistake! Is that the best you can do, child? Defend your bullshit by nitpicking while running away from the point?

What's this 'standard', by the way? The only one I know of it rolling up treasure for adventures from the DMG tables; the only way you would reliably get the sort of boosts you want to insist are 'standard' is that instead of levelling up and finding gear or going on quests to make it, you just fed-ex yourself stuff off the list to the 'new starting players' suggestions. Which is bullshit.

Again the standard allows for the purchase if items, up to 100k in a metropolis.

Liiiiiiar. 100k for mundane objects? Sure. Magical? Guess again. *Smacks you with the FRCS*

[LadyTevar]

Having just read over the thread, all I can say is that my DMs never gave me the good stuff unless I was sleeping with them.

Although, there are a few ready-made dungeons out there that are built to give you just the right item you need to solve the dungeon and win the day. However, any Dm who lets you keep these items is only asking for trouble.

[SirNitram]

Having just read over the thread, all I can say is that my DMs never gave me the good stuff unless I was sleeping with them.

Oh please.

Even then I wasn't giving you what you wanted. *Hides*

[Ford Prefect]

Oh please.

Even then I wasn't giving you what you wanted. *Hides*

I think the appropriate phrase here is 'limited time to live' But thanks for the advice regarding monks.

[Stormin]

I belive that it is up to the DM to curb powergaming. If a player using a particular style/ability combo that is overpowered in most situations, the foes they will have to fight would be able to know beforehand (since the group has been doing so much, they would be known of) and preperations would have been made beforehand to negate the parties effectiveness as much as possible.
Eventually the players will get the hint and adopt a more well rounded playstyle.

[Imperial Overlord]

I highly doubt it will be dispelling anything with its caster level loss. And if it disjoins then the entire party is out loot. Which will leave it in a worst
eventually. And a party will have buffs going during a large percentage of the fights.

Arch-mage levels are good for pumping up the effective caster level, we both know that. And we both know that a demilich character will pack them. As for buffing, well as someone who as actually ran a character and gm'd a campaign that ran up to epic, you often don't have short term buffs ready because "attack from suprise" is one of the favorite ways of dealing with epic characters. Yes, you can quicken and multicast, but that burns feats and spellslots.

When a spell lasts 10minutes per level and your fucking over 30th level, then yes the spells should be on. As for buying items, that is campain specific.

No, it won't. I'll say this in bold because you still haven't acknowledged this: YOU DON"T ALWAYS FIGHT WHEN YOU CHOOSE AND YOUR SPELLS ARE OFTEN DISPELLED OR COUNTERED. Even at 30th level shapechange (your broken spell of choice) lasts five hourse out of 24. Maybe in twink world you don't get attacked while sleeping, but not in any campaign I've played in or run.

The protection is provided by spells, and any character that is as intelegent as a wizard is going to figure this shit out. And like it leaving it's shit a half a planet away won't eventually be exploitid by an intellegent foe.

Spells that can be dispelled, disjoined, countered and won't always be up without a huge investment in feats and spell slots. Sure, your items hidden half a planet away might eventually be attacked by an intelligent foe, but the ones are your person is much more vulnerable. It's also a smaller loss when you have natural invulnerabilities, flight, lich stat bonuses, demilich stat bonuses, insight AC bonus, natural armour AC bonus, size AC bonus, undead resistances and so on so forth. And the ability to spam soul drain, which is noticably not addressed in your answer.

[lance]

What the fuck is this 'standard' you preach about? A 'standard' campaign does not spit out perfectly optimized items towards a CO board build; the only 'standard' could be that from the DMG tables, which produce random magical items, and have a bias towards limited-use items, and which will certainly make it unlikely that your average player has this sort of spread

The chart in the DMG that says character wealth by level, and the section that gives the GP limit by town size.

You're a fucking imbecile. The GP limit does not equate 'Any magical item you need is handed to you'. Indeed, as any number of sourcebooks state, unless you're in fucking Netheril you're not gonna buy permenant magical items outside of some very special cases.(Indeed, that's a fucking plot point in Faerun, where the Red Wizards are making money hand over shackle for offering little +1 things)

"Any thing having a price under that the limit is most likely available, whether it be mudane or magical" pg 137 DMs Guide. assuming most likely available is over a 50% chance, I win.

[lance]

I highly doubt it will be dispelling anything with its caster level loss. And if it disjoins then the entire party is out loot. Which will leave it in a worst
eventually. And a party will have buffs going during a large percentage of the fights.

Arch-mage levels are good for pumping up the effective caster level, we both know that. And we both know that a demilich character will pack them. As for buffing, well as someone who as actually ran a character and gm'd a campaign that ran up to epic, you often don't have short term buffs ready because "attack from suprise" is one of the favorite ways of dealing with epic characters. Yes, you can quicken and multicast, but that burns feats and spellslots.

That only adds one to the check. And we don't know that a demilich character will be packing said levels. My argument has been that the template in and of itself is not broken. Which means adding prestige classes that are ahead of the curve should not be part of the equation. As for the surprise thing, I am not talking about short term buffs, I am talking about spells that last almost half the waking day. I am also assuming that the characters would have a safe place to sleep, Like Mordi's Mansion.

When a spell lasts 10minutes per level and your fucking over 30th level, then yes the spells should be on. As for buying items, that is campain specific.

No, it won't. I'll say this in bold because you still haven't acknowledged this: YOU DON"T ALWAYS FIGHT WHEN YOU CHOOSE AND YOUR SPELLS ARE OFTEN DISPELLED OR COUNTERED. Even at 30th level shapechange (your broken spell of choice) lasts five hourse out of 24. Maybe in twink world you don't get attacked while sleeping, but not in any campaign I've played in or run.

I believe that I took care of the safe sleeping situation with the Mansion. And if you extend it, it will last 11 hours, your 33rd level to allow for the demilich.

The protection is provided by spells, and any character that is as intelegent as a wizard is going to figure this shit out. And like it leaving it's shit a half a planet away won't eventually be exploitid by an intellegent foe.

Spells that can be dispelled, disjoined, countered and won't always be up without a huge investment in feats and spell slots. Sure, your items hidden half a planet away might eventually be attacked by an intelligent foe, but the ones are your person is much more vulnerable. It's also a smaller loss when you have natural invulnerabilities, flight, lich stat bonuses, demilich stat bonuses, insight AC bonus, natural armour AC bonus, size AC bonus, undead resistances and so on so forth. And the ability to spam soul drain, which is noticably not addressed in your answer.

The soul drain was not part of this post, and negative energy protection offers protection against the level drain. I cant
track the spell down though. While it is a smaller loss if you have natural abilities, the only worry is really the disjunction. I am not saying the lich doesn't have advantages over a normal wizard, I'm saying that they are largely defensive and not leaps and bounds above a normal wizard.

[SirNitram]

"Any thing having a price under that the limit is most likely available, whether it be mudane or magical" pg 137 DMs Guide. assuming most likely available is over a 50% chance, I win.

Directly contradicted by published source material. In other words: Blow me you powergaming sack of shit.

You have turned this thread into your personal trainwreck for the sole purpose of justifying your bullshit. Your desperation is shown in knowing that this very phrase is contradicted and persisting anyway. Your pathetic argument 'You can abuse a broken spell to be even better than a broken template! Therefore the template isn't broken!' only seals the deal.

[lance]

"Any thing having a price under that the limit is most likely available, whether it be mudane or magical" pg 137 DMs Guide. assuming most likely available is over a 50% chance, I win.

Directly contradicted by published source material. In other words: Blow me you powergaming sack of shit.

Source?

'You can abuse a broken spell to be even better than a broken template! Therefore the template isn't broken!' only seals the deal.

Prove that shapechange is more vastly more powerful than the other 9th level spells.

[SirNitram]

"Any thing having a price under that the limit is most likely available, whether it be mudane or magical" pg 137 DMs Guide. assuming most likely available is over a 50% chance, I win.

Directly contradicted by published source material. In other words: Blow me you powergaming sack of shit.

Source?

If you're not fucking illiterate, I already listed. I'm sick and tired of your delaying tactics, bullshit, and nonsense.

'You can abuse a broken spell to be even better than a broken template! Therefore the template isn't broken!' only seals the deal.

Prove that shapechange is more vastly more powerful than the other 9th level spells.

Fuck you, asswipe. I'm not going to play the nitpick game with an admitted powergaming peice of shit. Except to point out you yourself admit that it allows you to become a Demilich with immunity to all non-Epic weapons, most spells, gain a huge SR, and a variety of other effects, for eleven hours, where's Meteor Swarm won't even reliably one-shot CR 20 encounters when they're run sensibly.

[lance]

Directly contradicted by published source material. In other words: Blow me you powergaming sack of shit.

Source?

If you're not fucking illiterate, I already listed. I'm sick and tired of your delaying tactics, bullshit, and nonsense.

You said "Any number of sources" I would like for them to be listed.

'You can abuse a broken spell to be even better than a broken template! Therefore the template isn't broken!' only seals the deal.

Prove that shapechange is more vastly more powerful than the other 9th level spells.

Fuck you, asswipe. I'm not going to play the nitpick game with an admitted powergaming peice of shit. Except to point out you yourself admit that it allows you to become a Demilich with immunity to all non-Epic weapons, most spells, gain a huge SR, and a variety of other effects, for eleven hours, where's Meteor Swarm won't even reliably one-shot CR 20 encounters when they're run sensibly.

[/quote]
Now your just fucking lying. I stated that you could shape change into a golem to keep up with the demiliches spell immunities, as well as the immunity to critical hits. Also the demilich doesn't have immunity to all non-epic weapons. A 1st level barbarian can bash through its DR with a normal great axe. Also it is only 11 hours at 33rd level with it extended.

[SirNitram]

Source?

If you're not fucking illiterate, I already listed. I'm sick and tired of your delaying tactics, bullshit, and nonsense.

You said "Any number of sources" I would like for them to be listed.

Faerun. Would you like more complete? FRCS.

'You can abuse a broken spell to be even better than a broken template! Therefore the template isn't broken!' only seals the deal.

Prove that shapechange is more vastly more powerful than the other 9th level spells.

Fuck you, asswipe. I'm not going to play the nitpick game with an admitted powergaming peice of shit. Except to point out you yourself admit that it allows you to become a Demilich with immunity to all non-Epic weapons, most spells, gain a huge SR, and a variety of other effects, for eleven hours, where's Meteor Swarm won't even reliably one-shot CR 20 encounters when they're run sensibly.

[/quote]
Now your just fucking lying. I stated that you could shape change into a golem to keep up with the demiliches spell immunities, as well as the immunity to critical hits. Also the demilich doesn't have immunity to all non-epic weapons. A 1st level barbarian can bash through its DR with a normal great axe. Also it is only 11 hours at 33rd level with it extended.[/quote]

If you can, by your own words keep up, you are equal to it. Thank you for more semantics with 'Have high DR' and 'immunity', though I have a funny feeling this '1st level barb' would be from your buttbuddies at CO.

Oh, and what's that? What's that? That's right, that's your munchkin ass not rebutting.

[Raxmei]

I just looked and the (3.0) Epic Level Handbok demilich has some significant differences from the (3.5) SRD demilich. The ELH has DR 30/-, while the SRD demilich has only DR 15/Epic and Bludgeoning. A first level barbarian could conceivably put a couple points of damage through the latter, but the former is a completely different story.
edit: I took a closer look and that's the only major difference.

[lance]

You said "Any number of sources" I would like for them to be listed.

Faerun. Would you like more complete? FRCS.

Campain specific.

Fuck you, asswipe. I'm not going to play the nitpick game with an admitted powergaming peice of shit. Except to point out you yourself admit that it allows you to become a Demilich with immunity to all non-Epic weapons, most spells, gain a huge SR, and a variety of other effects, for eleven hours, where's Meteor Swarm won't even reliably one-shot CR 20 encounters when they're run sensibly.

Now your just fucking lying. I stated that you could shape change into a golem to keep up with the demiliches spell immunities, as well as the immunity to critical hits. Also the demilich doesn't have immunity to all non-epic weapons. A 1st level barbarian can bash through its DR with a normal great axe. Also it is only 11 hours at 33rd level with it extended.

If you can, by your own words keep up, you are equal to it. Thank you for more semantics with 'Have high DR' and 'immunity'.

Immunity is immunity and reduction is reduction. Completely differant. Also the demilich still has the edge in AC, the souldrain, a very powerfull ability, and diminutive size.

[Imperial Overlord]

Immunity is immunity and reduction is reduction. Completely differant. Also the demilich still has the edge in AC, the souldrain, a very powerfull ability, and diminutive size.

Semantics whoring and changing your position. Which is it? Either abusing a broken spell allows you to be equal with a demilich or a demilich is superior to even a wizard abusing a broken spell.

Either way, you're in munchkin land.

[lance]

Immunity is immunity and reduction is reduction. Completely differant. Also the demilich still has the edge in AC, the souldrain, a very powerfull ability, and diminutive size.

Semantics whoring and changing your position. Which is it? Either abusing a broken spell allows you to be equal with a demilich or a demilich is superior to even a wizard abusing a broken spell.

Either way, you're in munchkin land.

I have said that the demilich is supererior in defensive abilities than a spell caster that didn't take 21 levels of wizard and a 12 level adjustment template. I am arguing that with the exception of the AC boost it is not greatly above what a wizard can get. The soul drain and non SR spells are the only thing it has for offense. Again if you can post a way for a demilich to overcome a 12 level loss against SR I will with draw my arguement of it being balanced.

[Imperial Overlord]

I have said that the demilich is supererior in defensive abilities than a spell caster that didn't take 21 levels of wizard and a 12 level adjustment template. I am arguing that with the exception of the AC boost it is not greatly above what a wizard can get. The soul drain and non SR spells are the only thing it has for offense. Again if you can post a way for a demilich to overcome a 12 level loss against SR I will with draw my arguement of it being balanced.

1) Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Arch-mage, and Red Wizard levels come easily to mind. Being as you are a rampant power gamer, I find it extremely difficult to believe that you don't already know this. Also, not everything has good SR and there is the soul suck.

2) Your methods of "closing the gap" involve rampant powergaming and a docile DM who lets you get any magic item you want with no difficulty, abuse broken spells, and never has you enemies attack you at a disadvantage or strip off you defensive spells.

3) The issue isn't whether or not a demilich character is the most heinous possible choice. The issue is whether or not it is broken. As the only suggestions for something close to as bad involve abusing broken spells and being able to get your hands on a large number of powerful magic items and choose their effects, in other words a completely broken campaign, your argument doesn't hold water.

[lance]

1) Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Arch-mage, and Red Wizard levels come easily to mind. Being as you are a rampant power gamer, I find it extremely difficult to believe that you don't already know this. Also, not everything has good SR and there is the soul suck.

Demilich requires 21 levels in wizard,sorceror or cleric. A character with prestige classes does not qualify. Epic penetration adds plus 3. Most things that are a threat to you will have SR.

2) Your methods of "closing the gap" involve rampant powergaming and a docile DM who lets you get any magic item you want with no difficulty, abuse broken spells, and never has you enemies attack you at a disadvantage or strip off you defensive spells.

Bullshit. It requires following the guidlines in the DMG, characters that have a safe sleeping space, and I said many times that Mordikens Disjunction will be problematic.

3) The issue isn't whether or not a demilich character is the most heinous possible choice. The issue is whether or not it is broken. As the only suggestions for something close to as bad involve abusing broken spells and being able to get your hands on a large number of powerful magic items and choose their effects, in other words a completely broken campaign, your argument doesn't hold water.

Prove that Shapechange is broken. Their are plenty of 9th level spells that are just as good. Like timestop, dominate monster and gate.

[SirNitram]

Campain specific.

Backpedal faster. Specifically, by showing any non-Sigil, non-Netherese place where you can get high level magical items.

Immunity is immunity and reduction is reduction. Completely differant. Also the demilich still has the edge in AC, the souldrain, a very powerfull ability, and diminutive size.

Semantics whoring. And you were lying about the Barb doing damage to a Demi.

But none of this surprises anyone. You've been trying to defend your powergaming from the word go.

[SirNitram]

Prove that Shapechange is broken.

Proven by your own arguments that Shapechange allowed you to compete or best a vastly superior monster one on one. What a pity. Your own argument destroys you.

I've always loved turning my opponents arguments against him. Now, do you have anything with actual logic, or are you just going to scream 'YOU HAVEN'T PROVEN ANYTHING!'.

[Hotfoot]

To be fair, I think he has a point about the magic items. While what you can or can't buy is always campaign specific, the baseline power level suggested in the PHB and the DMG clearly states that you can buy all manner of magic items in towns, save, of course, for relics. That is supposed to be a guideline for custom campaigns, random towns, and so on. It's also, IIRC, the baseline setting for Greyhawk, which is the default D&D setting for v3.x

Of course, any smart GM will make players work for access to that stuff, as the best mages and clerics would likely be in the service of the King directly. Hell, I remember reading an article on the D&D site a while back that provided a nice, believable reason as to why Players couldn't get their hands on warhorses so easily. Honestly, given the way I've seen most Adventurer groups run, I can seriously see the local mages guild flat out refusing to give them gear any better than +1 total enhancements.

One of the biggest failings of novice GMs (and unfortunately, the writers at WoTC) is to fail to work out the synergy, if you will, of campaigns. Nothing happens in a vaccuum, and the game should show that.

One of the things that always bugged me is that in the creation of magic items, you have to give up XP. So, please, do explain to me, how is it that priests in the local temple or mages in the local guild manage to get any better at what they do, namely crafting? Moreover, why should they give up a piece of their souls (the in-game justification for XP) to help some rag-tag group of adventurers?