Tanks vs. Mechs: A Real Challenge

[Beowulf]

*snip*

Ah. Thank you for clearing that up.

Thing is, Zaku bazooka rounds aren't necessarily gun-type nukes. We don't really know anything about them, other than that they are able to punch through colony walls, which are seen to be capable of withstanding megatons of damage.

Megatons over the surface of the colony? Or megatons at a single point? Bit of a difference there...

[Zaku-chan]

Single point. I meant when being struck by weapons, as they can shrug off conventional missiles and explosives from nearby combat.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Zeon nukes have to be low yield gun type nukes......

Excuse me, but Zeonic nuclear warheads are launched from a 280mm bazooka, hardly a "low yield gun type"

Have you seen the size of the Hiroshima bomb?

[yoda mode]Judge the missile by it's size do you, as well you should not.[\yoda]

The arguement is that since the majority of the atomics are deployed are against fragile (Alumannum & Ceramic (just like the space shuttle))

[The Yosemite Bear]

But based on the damage those same weapons do do to things like rocks...

These conventional weapons in Gundam aren't dishing out Megatons.

[Zaku-chan]

Have you seen the size of the Hiroshima bomb?

[yoda mode]Judge the missile by it's size do you, as well you should not.[\yoda]

I know. I have since been edumacated.

These conventional weapons in Gundam aren't dishing out Megatons.

No kidding. However, we've only seen nuclear explosions and capship salvos punch through colony walls. That and the fact that huge chunks of a colony survived its fall to Earth (during which it created a 60,000 magaton blast IIRC) means that those colonies are pretty tough.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Given that it was a pure KE attack, plus that Mir, and the Space shuttle didn't burn up in the atmosphere either.

[Zaku-chan]

Given that it was a pure KE attack, plus that Mir, and the Space shuttle didn't burn up in the atmosphere either.

Mir didn't turn 1/5th of the Australian continent into a crater when it landed, either.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I am just showing that reintree shielding does exist, and isn't that powerful. It's just the rather large size of the colony that made for the effect.

[Zaku-chan]

I am just showing that reintree shielding does exist, and isn't that powerful. It's just the rather large size of the colony that made for the effect.

Yes, and it's stated in the Gundam manga and sourcebooks that it was a 60,000 MT blast.

[Beowulf]

I am just showing that reintree shielding does exist, and isn't that powerful. It's just the rather large size of the colony that made for the effect.

Yes, and it's stated in the Gundam manga and sourcebooks that it was a 60,000 MT blast.

Hey! This means we can figure out the mass of a colony!

Ok. Assuming that it's falling from infinity (not much change from actuality, and I'm lazy) it's final velocity will be = to earth's escape velocity which is 11km/s about. 60 GT = 2.5e20 J. KE = (mv^2)/2 so the colony's mass is: 4 million tons about.

Seems reasonable. Of course, it's very mass is going to shield interior sections of the colony from the heat of reentry, so it's quite naturally is going to mostly survive. Bigger things tend to survive reentry better, until they smack into the ground of course.

[Uraniun235]

I am just showing that reintree shielding does exist, and isn't that powerful. It's just the rather large size of the colony that made for the effect.

Yes, and it's stated in the Gundam manga and sourcebooks that it was a 60,000 MT blast.

Hey! This means we can figure out the mass of a colony!

Ok. Assuming that it's falling from infinity (not much change from actuality, and I'm lazy) it's final velocity will be = to earth's escape velocity which is 11km/s about. 60 GT = 2.5e20 J. KE = (mv^2)/2 so the colony's mass is: 4 million tons about.

Seems reasonable. Of course, it's very mass is going to shield interior sections of the colony from the heat of reentry, so it's quite naturally is going to mostly survive. Bigger things tend to survive reentry better, until they smack into the ground of course.

Only 4 million? Huh.

IIRC, a Galaxy class starship is 4.5 million tons.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Let's not even mention an ISD, falling into a planet.

[Kuja]

Actually, Zaku-chan is partially incorrect here. It wasn't a colony, it was a colony FRAGMENT. Due to intervention by the Federal Forces, which damaged the colony en route to Earth, and further damage caused by the reentry due to the previous damage, only about 2/3 of the colony actually slammed into Sydney (the epicenter of the blast).

[AdmiralKanos]

Yes, and it's stated in the Gundam manga and sourcebooks that it was a 60,000 MT blast.

Did it lower global temperatures, annihilate everything for dozens of kilometres in every direction, and knock down every structure for hundreds of kilometres in every direction? If not, then it was not a 60 gigaton blast, no matter what the sourcebook says.

[Kuja]

Yes, and it's stated in the Gundam manga and sourcebooks that it was a 60,000 MT blast.

Did it lower global temperatures, annihilate everything for dozens of kilometres in every direction, and knock down every structure for hundreds of kilometres in every direction? If not, then it was not a 60 gigaton blast, no matter what the sourcebook says.

Actually, yes it did. It caused a "Small-scale nuclear winter", punched out a massive crater that filled with ocean water, and utterly annihilated anyone in the blast radius.

Shot your mouth off a little too quick there, Mike.

[Seggybop]

In case there is any further argument about the Minovsky particle there is the archinve of the page from the Gundam Project

http://web.archive.org/web/200106050045 ... ovsky.html

[Darth Wong]

Actually, yes it did. It caused a "Small-scale nuclear winter", punched out a massive crater that filled with ocean water, and utterly annihilated anyone in the blast radius.

I'm not hearing any numbers yet, Iggy. What is the blast radius? What level of nuclear winter was caused, and was it global? Were buildings knocked down for more than 500 kilometres in every direction? How much extra-atmospheric ejecta was there? Was the object vapourized on impact?

Shot your mouth off a little too quick there, Mike.

Speak for yourself. I'm asking a question, and you're already going into smart-ass mode without really answering it.

[Kuja]

I'm not hearing any numbers yet, Iggy. What is the blast radius? What level of nuclear winter was caused, and was it global? Were buildings knocked down for more than 500 kilometres in every direction? How much extra-atmospheric ejecta was there? Was the object vapourized on impact?

Blast radius = at least 500km IIRC.

winter = unknown, but worldwide effects are reported

Mike, there was NOTHING LEFT. The blast didn't just LEVEL the city, the CRATER was filled with seawater covering 1/5 of Australia

Ejecta = unknown. At least a few colony fragments survived.

Here's data from GundamProject:

Though the falling colony does impact on Earth, it breaks up into several pieces during its entry into the atmosphere, consequently missing its target. Colony fragments rain down upon North America, while the largest chunk lands on Sydney, Australia, creating an impact equivalent to a 60,000 megaton blast. The Sydney impact creates destroys one-sixth of the Australian continent, creating a 500-kilometer crater and killing 200 million people. The casualty toll for the first days of the conflict, referred to as the One Week Battle, now stands at about three billion people.

Whoops, 1/6 not 1/5. My bad.

And a bit of data on the global effects:

Less than two weeks into the war, the indiscriminate use of nuclear weapons and chemical warfare have killed half the human race. Earth’s climate has also been ravaged by the effects of Operation British, and a small-scale “nuclear winter” is under way.

Speak for yourself. I'm asking a question, and you're already going into smart-ass mode without really answering it.

I'm always in smartass mode. You know that.

[Darth Wong]

Ejecta = unknown. At least a few colony fragments survived.
...
... creating an impact equivalent to a 60,000 megaton blast. The Sydney impact creates destroys one-sixth of the Australian continent, creating a 500-kilometer crater and killing 200 million people ...

Earth's climate has also been ravaged by the effects of Operation British, and a small-scale "nuclear winter" is under way.

That data is massively self-contradictory. A blast of that magnitude would not leave any colony fragments whatsoever. Moreover, a 60 gigaton blast would not create a 500 km wide crater. But a blast powerful enough to create a 500 km wide crater is of dino-killer magnitude, and would create far more than a "small-scale" nuclear winter. It would blot out the Sun completely for weeks, and briefly lower global temperatures to at or near freezing temps. You would also see global wildfires and thermal radiation burn effects from globally distributed sub-orbital impact ejecta re-entering the atmosphere.

These guys obviously didn't do their homework; none of what they say makes any sense.

[Kuja]

That data is massively self-contradictory. A blast of that magnitude would not leave any colony fragments whatsoever.

It's possible they broke off before the actual impact.

These guys obviously didn't do their homework; none of what they say makes any sense.

ST and SW writers apparently didn't do their homework either. FTL is impossible.

[Darth Wong]

ST and SW writers apparently didn't do their homework either. FTL is impossible.

Make as many icons as you like, but bullshit is still bullshit, and while this may come as a shock to you, icons do not actually constitute a valid argument. FTL is impossible, so they say as little as possible about how it works. We accept it because it is necessary in order to have space opera in any form, but that doesn't mean we have to throw our brains out the window and completely ignore all realism problems as a result. Why do you think I have pages on the stupidity of Trek pseudoscience?

In this case, the idiots actually said exactly how it was done, even to the point of giving numbers and providing detailed descriptions of what happened, all of which contradict each other. It is hardly justified by simply pointing out that FTL is not possible; you're simply being knee-jerk defensive. Get off it; this is precisely identical to idiot Trekkies who whine that we shouldn't criticize the mountains of Trek pseudoscience because there's no such thing as a Death Star.

[Kuja]

And it's not possible that physics apply differently in the UC universe?

You've claimed that the "many worlds" theory seems to fit the ST universe, isn't it possible for things to be different in Gundam as well?

Considering that the entire series is depedant on "Minovsky Phsysics" which is a completely made-up branch of nuclear science, I'd say it's feasible.

[Darth Wong]

And it's not possible that physics apply differently in the UC universe?

Only if it's really poorly written, since the universe still has people in it. Alternatively, it can simply throw physics to the wind, like "Treasure Planet" does, and accept it.

You've claimed that the "many worlds" theory seems to fit the ST universe, isn't it possible for things to be different in Gundam as well?

The parallel universes would all have the same laws of physics, Iggy.

Considering that the entire series is depedant on "Minovsky Phsysics" which is a completely made-up branch of nuclear science, I'd say it's feasible.

No, it isn't. It's one thing to add a new phenomenon to our list, but it's quite another to mutilate existing, well-understood ones. It is quite literally no better than having a nuclear explosion set off in someone's basement 8 feet away from him which takes out half the city but only singes him because he rolls with the blast. It's utterly moronic.

[Kuja]

Only if it's really poorly written, since the universe still has people in it. Alternatively, it can simply throw physics to the wind, like "Treasure Planet" does, and accept it.

"Since the universe still has people in it"? Huh?

And in your opinion, was Treasure Planet more or less of a movie because it did so? Or doesn't it really affect it?

The parallel universes would all have the same laws of physics, Iggy.

Of course they would. Not my point. IIRC, you've said that while the "many worlds" idea wouldn't work IRL (I'll have to recheck the page), it apparently does in ST.

No, it isn't. It's one thing to add a new phenomenon to our list, but it's quite another to mutilate existing, well-understood ones. It is quite literally no better than having a nuclear explosion set off in someone's basement 8 feet away from him which takes out half the city but only singes him because he rolls with the blast. It's utterly moronic.

Trek mutilates science and engineering, doesn't it? Yet you still deem it worthy of your attention. Why is Gundam different?

[Darth Wong]

"Since the universe still has people in it"? Huh?

Human biological systems do not function unless virtually all of the laws of physics remain intact. Certainly more than enough laws of physics to guarantee that the blast effects I'm talking about will remain accurate. The presence of humans in any sci-fi series eliminates the possibility of major physics differences, unless it overtly discards realism.

And in your opinion, was Treasure Planet more or less of a movie because it did so? Or doesn't it really affect it?

It was more of a movie IMO because it made no attempt to rationalize that which could not be rationalized. It made no attempt whatsoever to claim realism, hence it did not fail.

Of course they would. Not my point. IIRC, you've said that while the "many worlds" idea wouldn't work IRL (I'll have to recheck the page), it apparently does in ST.

Right, because we've seen it. But since this is, shall we say, an addition onto known phenomena which does not require going back and rewriting existing phenomena. Addition is always better than mutilation.

Trek mutilates science and engineering, doesn't it? Yet you still deem it worthy of your attention. Why is Gundam different?

I deem Trek worthy of scorn and derision. You can call that "worthy of attention" if you like, but it's not exactly a good thing.