Psionics and other varient magics in D&D.

[SirNitram]

One of the things that always bugged me is that in the creation of magic items, you have to give up XP. So, please, do explain to me, how is it that priests in the local temple or mages in the local guild manage to get any better at what they do, namely crafting? Moreover, why should they give up a piece of their souls (the in-game justification for XP) to help some rag-tag group of adventurers?

2nd Ed resolved this very nicely; there were non-adventuring XP awards which would show that, on average, a research wizard could go from level 1 to level 2 or 3 in a year of simply working with dusty old books provided by his employer, working out a better version of some 1st level spell.

It also used the latter as the reason why you couldn't get any reliable magical items. Sure, minor enchantments show up, but little more(Netheril is brought up as the exception in my posts because they were specifically exempt from XP costs; in 2nd Ed terms, no need of Permenancy, I'd assume a similar mechanism means they don't have to fork over XP in 3rd. More relevent than you might think..).

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

I seem to rememer that Permanency cost a point of CON, which is even worse than a loss of XP. And I remember wondering why any mage would ever craft anything less than the most powerful item they could, and why they would be willing ot turn around and sell an item.

[Master of Ossus]

Magic item creation works best when it functions sort of like the "legacy item" thing. The weapon starts out being masterwork (or higher), and then a skilled user who does great deeds with the weapon slowly infuses his spirit, talent, etc. into the weapon itself. The IWD saga refers to several such items, which started as normal weapons and then became more powerful because their owners were so powerful.

That's how it should be: the item creation isn't necessarily even a conscious process. It's a byproduct of your adventures. You're not actually attempting to make the sword you wield or the robes you wear more powerful--it just happens somewhere along the way.

This option allows the DM nearly complete control over the new abilities that his characters' items pick up, and it's also much more rewarding than just finding a +1 sword. Now, one character's sword becomes a +1 sword after he valiantly defeated the hobgoblin army and thus saved the town of Northend. Also, when you do find the Mace of Sir Caberlay, there's actually a history behind it, and in fact its abilities may be "matched" to that history. The mace may even refuse to grant all of its powers at once to its new user, or it may be destined for a particular party member to once again use it to guard the Silver Vale from dragons.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

That's a very interesting method for magical items. It works especially well for my favored system of handling magical items, which is to get rid of all that +1, +2, +3 shit and make each magical item a rare, unique, and powerful thing. Excalibur didn't make its user a slightly better fighter, or even a significantly better fighter. It made its user invincible in combat. I'm not saying magical items should make someone invincible, but they should play an important role. "Holy shit, this guy's got the Blade of Miyamoto, run!" is a lot better than "Oh look, this guy's got a sword +3, a ring of protection +2, an amulet of natural armor +1, gauntlets of ogre strength, and a ring of regeneration. He'll be pretty tough. I hope I roll better than him".

[SirNitram]

That's an interesting twist... I've gone with the method of making enchanting weapons a quest in and of itself.

Let's face it. For your average adventurer, they've gone from 1st to 5th with a sword assembled from a plowshear hammered into a new shape, and only after that could get their mitts on a solid, true steel sword(At least, that's how I ran it for a while; the most recent games lacked that as I adjusted to 3.5). Which means when the arc is coming to it's close, it's time to get yourself the materials for a sword suitable for a hero.

I'll borrow the Excalibur reference. The Sword in the Stone only goes so far. When it comes time, you have to go and prove you're worthy of the big and the bad.

One thing I liked was having heros reforge ancient, but broken, weapons. The rusted, pitted, snapped-in-two blade there has runes for a reason, folks. And when put together with a little modern magic and know-how, you can get a pretty nasty blade.

Of course, then there's the damn gnome who melted down the daemonslayer blade for a full clip of anti-Infernal rounds for that whacky auto-arquebus.

[Imperial Overlord]

Legendary items in Earthdawn are created and work in a similar manner. An empowering deed, a heroic action taken with the weapon, gives it power and makes it part of a Legend. As more deeds are done, the weapon acquires properties related to those deeds. The power of naming, association and contagion, and Legends are important parts of the game and magic item creation reflects that. Lesser items can also be created by skilled crafters.

[lance]

Campain specific.

Backpedal faster. Specifically, by showing any non-Sigil, non-Netherese place where you can get high level magical items.

Union and the City of Brass. Due to me being incapable of finding the passage in the Forgotten Realms campain setting I would like a page number.

Immunity is immunity and reduction is reduction. Completely differant. Also the demilich still has the edge in AC, the souldrain, a very powerfull ability, and diminutive size.

Semantics whoring. And you were lying about the Barb doing damage to a Demi.

Bullshit, the lich has DR 15/ epic and Bludgening, A barb does d12+1.5 str. Assuming he started with a 12 strength he can damage the lich.

[lance]

Prove that Shapechange is broken.

Proven by your own arguments that Shapechange allowed you to compete or best a vastly superior monster one on one. What a pity. Your own argument destroys you.

You mean the Demilich that shares your ECL and is thus considered by game terms to be roughly your equal?

[Imperial Overlord]

Union and the City of Brass. Due to me being incapable of finding the passage in the Forgotten Realms campain setting I would like a page number.

Realms first. Anything to do with the Red Wizards business, which wouldn't work if other people could give you easy access to simple magic items, the easiest to get. And the front part of Magic of Faerun deals with the magic business, which simply put, any item of real power is hard to find.

The City of Brass does a lot of planar business and you can certainly find magic items there, but that is a far cry from being able to find a specific magic item whenever you want them. On Union, the best magic item dealer doesn't have much in stock, his business is knowing wizards who know how to create items. Which means even if he does know one that can make what you want, they might not want to. Neither place guarrantees that you will find a single specific item, let alone a half dozen specific pieces per adventurer. You fail.

Immunity is immunity and reduction is reduction. Completely differant. Also the demilich still has the edge in AC, the souldrain, a very powerfull ability, and diminutive size.

Semantics whoring. And you were lying about the Barb doing damage to a Demi.

Bullshit, the lich has DR 15/ epic and Bludgening, A barb does d12+1.5 str. Assuming he started with a 12 strength he can damage the lich.

The barb can only hit on a natural twenty and won't be able to even melee with a the flying skull, but lets do the math. Natural twenty to hit 12 on the die +4 for strength +1 power attack. 17 versus 3.5 DR 15/epic and bludgeoning (only one weapon in my epic campaign fell into that catagory, by the way). 2 points on two maxed out dice to an epic creature that can heal itself every round. Give yourself a pat on the back. That proves jack. One hit, for negligable damage, in epic.


Because you are dense, SHAPE CHANGE PROVES NOTHING. It is a broken spell. You cannot use a broken spell to get near parity to a creature and then prove it isn't broken. Try using another 9th level spell to do that. Oops, you can't. Thus, shapechange is broken.

[SirNitram]

Campain specific.

Backpedal faster. Specifically, by showing any non-Sigil, non-Netherese place where you can get high level magical items.

Union and the City of Brass. Due to me being incapable of finding the passage in the Forgotten Realms campain setting I would like a page number.

An epic setting and a transplanar hub... Not exactly Waterdeep, are they?

[lance]

Backpedal faster. Specifically, by showing any non-Sigil, non-Netherese place where you can get high level magical items.

Union and the City of Brass. Due to me being incapable of finding the passage in the Forgotten Realms campain setting I would like a page number.

An epic setting and a transplanar hub... Not exactly Waterdeep, are they?

How about these, Fairhaven, Stormhome, Passage, Sharn, Wroat, Rhukaan Draal, Ashtakala, The Great Crag, Korth, Karrlakton, Reakkenmark, Atur, Krona Peak, Korunda Gate, Newthrone, Flamekeep, Taer Sadaen, Korrenburg, Trolanport, The City of the Dead, Shae Cairda. I would still like the page that has the quote that contradicts this "Any thing having a price under that the limit is most likely available, whether it be mudane or magical" pg 137 DMs Guide

[SirNitram]

Union and the City of Brass. Due to me being incapable of finding the passage in the Forgotten Realms campain setting I would like a page number.

An epic setting and a transplanar hub... Not exactly Waterdeep, are they?

How about these, Fairhaven, Stormhome, Passage, Sharn, Wroat, Rhukaan Draal, Ashtakala, The Great Crag, Korth, Karrlakton, Reakkenmark, Atur, Krona Peak, Korunda Gate, Newthrone, Flamekeep, Taer Sadaen, Korrenburg, Trolanport, The City of the Dead, Shae Cairda. I would still like the page that has the quote that contradicts this "Any thing having a price under that the limit is most likely available, whether it be mudane or magical" pg 137 DMs Guide

I'd like page numbers and sources for all those cities you named. And I'm expecting they don't actually say, in each one, you can net those items. I'm betting they just say Metropolis. BTW, it's pg 279 of the FRCS to see the details of the Thayan Enclaves which are making a killing, and it specifically says it will rarely go higher than a +1 item, and never above 2,000 GP for general sale!

That they are building a mercantile empire with this business model, to the point where they secure their presense with nothing more than wands of Fly or Fireball, kills your little claim dead by simple logic.

[lance]

An epic setting and a transplanar hub... Not exactly Waterdeep, are they?

How about these, Fairhaven, Stormhome, Passage, Sharn, Wroat, Rhukaan Draal, Ashtakala, The Great Crag, Korth, Karrlakton, Reakkenmark, Atur, Krona Peak, Korunda Gate, Newthrone, Flamekeep, Taer Sadaen, Korrenburg, Trolanport, The City of the Dead, Shae Cairda. I would still like the page that has the quote that contradicts this "Any thing having a price under that the limit is most likely available, whether it be mudane or magical" pg 137 DMs Guide

I'd like page numbers and sources for all those cities you named. And I'm expecting they don't actually say, in each one, you can net those items. I'm betting they just say Metropolis.

Eberron Campain setting pages 139, 146, 148, 155, 160, 168, 181-2,193 196, 209, 211, 213, 218-9. Yes they just say metropilis, but pages 90-91 uses an ebberon version of pg 137 from the DM's Guide.

BTW, it's pg 279 of the FRCS to see the details of the Thayan Enclaves which are making a killing, and it specifically says it will rarely go higher than a +1 item, and never above 2,000 GP for general sale!

That they are building a mercantile empire with this business model, to the point where they secure their presense with nothing more than wands of Fly or Fireball, kills your little claim dead by simple logic.

True, however pg 67 of Magic of Faerune says that the Red Wizards flood the market with cheap junk. Also pg 61 says if a wizard joins a guild he makes the town that the guild is in counts as one size larger for the GP limit. The sample guild allows for the "rental" of any item under 30k and they buy it back for 80%.

[SirNitram]

Eberron Campain setting pages 139, 146, 148, 155, 160, 168, 181-2,193 196, 209, 211, 213, 218-9. Yes they just say metropilis, but pages 90-91 uses an ebberon version of pg 137 from the DM's Guide.

Man, it's like I know all the BS arguments you're gonna try. Must be because I've heard 'em before. Of course, you also admit it doesn't say the same as the DMG. Gonna share what it does say?

True, however pg 67 of Magic of Faerune says that the Red Wizards flood the market with cheap junk. Also pg 61 says if a wizard joins a guild he makes the town that the guild is in counts as one size larger for the GP limit. The sample guild allows for the "rental" of any item under 30k and they buy it back for 80%.

Which would still be less than stopping by any place and getting ahold of a 40k stat booster, you lying little monkey.

[Stormin]

If you are still going about starting characters with good loot, the way I have always seen it done was any characters started higher than L1 were assumed to be adventuring to get to that point. Therefore they had to have a decent balance on the equipment owned, meaning no Axe of the Uber +5 Vorpal Dancing Ghost Strike while wearing padded armor at level 10.

As for avalability of magic items, it depends on the settings. Some would have magic harder to obtain, like Nitram's example, while others have the stuff everywhere. From what I have been hearing, ebberon was created with a much higher magic item saturation than almost any other campaign world of its level/style.

[lance]

The barb can only hit on a natural twenty and won't be able to even melee with a the flying skull, but lets do the math. Natural twenty to hit 12 on the die +4 for strength +1 power attack. 17 versus 3.5 DR 15/epic and bludgeoning (only one weapon in my epic campaign fell into that catagory, by the way). 2 points on two maxed out dice to an epic creature that can heal itself every round. Give yourself a pat on the back. That proves jack. One hit, for negligable damage, in epic.

Oh No, the first level barb can't be a threat to a character 30 levels higher than him. It had nothing to do with the barb being a threat to the demilich. It was to counter the statement that the demilich was immune to most weapons. It isn't, unless by immune you mean highly resistant.

Because you are dense, SHAPE CHANGE PROVES NOTHING. It is a broken spell. You cannot use a broken spell to get near parity to a creature and then prove it isn't broken. Try using another 9th level spell to do that. Oops, you can't. Thus, shapechange is broken.

Gee, how many 9th level spells give you a defensive boost? Two, shapechange and Foresight. Foresight allows for you to never be surprised, not exactly a wide arange of abilities shapechange offers, but fairly useful. It is still up to you to prove that shapechange is broken, when it stands beside spells like Gate, Dominate Monster, Wail of the Banshee, Mordikens Disjuction, Energy Drain, and Timestop.

[The Dark]

Magic item creation works best when it functions sort of like the "legacy item" thing. The weapon starts out being masterwork (or higher), and then a skilled user who does great deeds with the weapon slowly infuses his spirit, talent, etc. into the weapon itself. The IWD saga refers to several such items, which started as normal weapons and then became more powerful because their owners were so powerful.

One of the Dragon magazines had an article with a system similar to that, where a player could choose to split his XP gains between leveling the character and leveling the magic item. Once you had sufficient "+X" to gain an ability, you could trade in the XP for the ability, although I think it maxed out at +1 equivalent for every level (might be off a bit on that, haven't read the article for a while) of the character.

[lance]

Man, it's like I know all the BS arguments you're gonna try. Must be because I've heard 'em before. Of course, you also admit it doesn't say the same as the DMG. Gonna share what it does say?

"In general minor magic items are easier to find and purchase in Khorvaire than in the DMs Guide. The differance is reflected in some adjustments to the gp limit in smaller settlements, as shown in the following table." The table is basicly the one in the DMs Guide with higher limits for thorpes-large town.

True, however pg 67 of Magic of Faerune says that the Red Wizards flood the market with cheap junk. Also pg 61 says if a wizard joins a guild he makes the town that the guild is in counts as one size larger for the GP limit. The sample guild allows for the "rental" of any item under 30k and they buy it back for 80%.

Which would still be less than stopping by any place and getting ahold of a 40k stat booster, you lying little monkey.

I never stated they just stop by any fucking place.I said they would be available in the city. Also the rental is a special perk of the guild. They can still buy magic items from the guild as if the town had the GP limit that was one size larger. The only times I have seen GP limit being based on a towns size is in the DMs Guide and Ebberon. It stands to reason it is referencing the table in the DMG, but if you have another idea I'd love to hear it.

[Imperial Overlord]

Oh No, the first level barb can't be a threat to a character 30 levels higher than him. It had nothing to do with the barb being a threat to the demilich. It was to counter the statement that the demilich was immune to most weapons. It isn't, unless by immune you mean highly resistant.[/quote]

Semantics whoring again. You can fluke out and do damage to a demilich with a weapon, but with its speed, immunities, DR, critical hit immunity, healing at will, and AC your chances of doing signifigant damage are nearly nil. That it is theoretical possible for a 1st level barbarian to do a tiny amount of damage is irrelevant.

Gee, how many 9th level spells give you a defensive boost? Two, shapechange and Foresight. Foresight allows for you to never be surprised, not exactly a wide arange of abilities shapechange offers, but fairly useful. It is still up to you to prove that shapechange is broken, when it stands beside spells like Gate, Dominate Monster, Wail of the Banshee, Mordikens Disjuction, Energy Drain, and Timestop.

Jesus Christ you are stupid. A spell that gives long term offensive advantages and conveys offensive power is superior to a one shot load of damage that won't drop a foe of your level. Shape change is widely acknowledge to be broken and the fact that you won't even mention another ninth level spell for your wizard to use to give anywhere near a comparable advantage proves it.

[lance]

I don't know how to delete.

[lance]

Oh No, the first level barb can't be a threat to a character 30 levels higher than him. It had nothing to do with the barb being a threat to the demilich. It was to counter the statement that the demilich was immune to most weapons. It isn't, unless by immune you mean highly resistant.

Semantics whoring again. You can fluke out and do damage to a demilich with a weapon, but with its speed, immunities, DR, critical hit immunity, healing at will, and AC your chances of doing signifigant damage are nearly nil. That it is theoretical possible for a 1st level barbarian to do a tiny amount of damage is irrelevant.

Your the one who said it was immune to most weapons, I proved you wrong. Wether or not the demilich is threatened by the barb or not is fucking irrelevant.

Gee, how many 9th level spells give you a defensive boost? Two, shapechange and Foresight. Foresight allows for you to never be surprised, not exactly a wide arange of abilities shapechange offers, but fairly useful. It is still up to you to prove that shapechange is broken, when it stands beside spells like Gate, Dominate Monster, Wail of the Banshee, Mordikens Disjuction, Energy Drain, and Timestop.

Jesus Christ you are stupid. A spell that gives long term offensive advantages and conveys offensive power is superior to a one shot load of damage that won't drop a foe of your level.

The offensive boost that shape change gives is negligable in most situations, out side of a few builds like Master Transmogatists and gish. If he turns into a balor his attack becomes +29/+24. If he turned into a pit fiend his attack would be +25/25/20/20/20. A storm giant +31/26. 12-headed Hydra +18x12, Nightcrawler +30/25, Titan 32/27. A fighters attack would be +36/31/26/21, with out support. The Wizard doesn't even hold a candle. Most supernatural abilities are quite lackluster, the only one of note being the red dragons 14d10 firebreath.
Of the spells I listed 2 do a pretty good job of dropping foes of your level. 2 do a pretty good job of neutering your opponent, one allows you to end the fight on your round. And one single handidly ends the encounter.

Shape change is widely acknowledge to be broken and the fact that you won't even mention another ninth level spell for your wizard to use to give anywhere near a comparable advantage proves it.

Gee, I guess millions of people just can't be wrong.

[lance]

On Union, the best magic item dealer doesn't have much in stock, his business is knowing wizards who know how to create items. Which means even if he does know one that can make what you want, they might not want to.

Source? I can't seem to find a reference to this.

Neither place guarrantees that you will find a single specific item, let alone a half dozen specific pieces per adventurer.

Maybe not, but according to the DMG they will most likely be available, and its not like the players will be buying every thing all at once. If they don't have the item in the city then the players will try to find a substitute. Can't find an upgrade for his ring of protection +2? He will try and find a replacement for his Amulet of natural armor, and will go down until he finds an item that can be replaced with an upgrade and then he will sell his old town to another player or to the shop. They will at most only buy an item after each adventure. Not exactly ground breaking by any stretch of the imagination.

[Imperial Overlord]

Epic Handbook, page 260, the fucking magic district in the fucking section on Union. You know the part of the book that deals with the world the game takes place in.

You still haven't suggested a spell that you would use in place of Shape Change to get anywhere as close long term power. And against creatures like golems which have unbeatable spell resistance, its the most powerful offensive spell in the game. It literally allows you to turn into anything the situation requires, the ultimate in flexibility and versatility.

You may continue to split hairs over the demilich's near invulnerability.

Maybe not, but according to the DMG they will most likely be available, and its not like the players will be buying every thing all at once. If they don't have the item in the city then the players will try to find a substitute. Can't find an upgrade for his ring of protection +2? He will try and find a replacement for his Amulet of natural armor, and will go down until he finds an item that can be replaced with an upgrade and then he will sell his old town to another player or to the shop. They will at most only buy an item after each adventure. Not exactly ground breaking by any stretch of the imagination.

True, but it ignores the reality of the situation. You will sometimes be able to find some of the gear you want. Some of the items will elude you, become lost, or destroyed. Epic level characters will have a number of useful items but rarely will even one character have every most of the items he wants. Instead he will have several useful items he has acquired over the course of adventures and a few treasures that are close to his dream items. He will rarely, if ever, possess a dream arsenal. In the games that I have run and played it that reached epic level, it has never happened.

[lance]

Epic Handbook, page 260, the fucking magic district in the fucking section on Union. You know the part of the book that deals with the world the game takes place in.

What you posted is not on that page. It just gives an example of a shop that does do that. It in no way changes what is listed in the DMG.

You still haven't suggested a spell that you would use in place of Shape Change to get anywhere as close long term power.

That is because it is the only spell that does what it does. No other spell is even remotely similiar.

And against creatures like golems which have unbeatable spell resistance, its the most powerful offensive spell in the game. It literally allows you to turn into anything the situation requires, the ultimate in flexibility and versatility.

Not quite, metamagiced orb spells are higher on the list because they don't require you to slug it out with a creature that will be dangerous no matter what form you take. Also I didn't exactly say it was weak, it is with out a doubt the best defensive spell in the game with its duration. It is in the top 10 of versitility. It is however lacking in offensive power for most situations. Yes it will be better in the long term, and in situations where you only have one spell left, but in most situations it will be better to have used an offensive spell.

Also in epic levels the offensive power it gives is practicly nil. With the best option being either a very young force dragon's breath weapon for 66 damage with a fairly low save DC, or a white slaad for 22-135 depending on how hard chaos is to wash off of you. Not counting any obscure.

True, but it ignores the reality of the situation. You will sometimes be able to find some of the gear you want. Some of the items will elude you, become lost, or destroyed.

By RAW those items will be few and far between. Most likely applying to things that are mentioned or implied as rare in their description, like Boccobs Blessed Book, which any wizard is going to want.

Epic level characters will have a number of useful items but rarely will even one character have every most of the items he wants. Instead he will have several useful items he has acquired over the course of adventures and a few treasures that are close to his dream items.

I doubt even epic characters can afford every item they want. How ever things like the +6 to a stat and +5 ring/amulet should be fairly easy to find, as should bracers of armor +8 for high level characters of 18-20th level. Considering their cost anyway. Armors of Fortification are also fairly cheap, and can easily be contracted out, especially at epic level. You may be only able to find a +1 heavy fortification of the one you want, so hopefully you have a cleric for support.

He will rarely, if ever, possess a dream arsenal. In the games that I have run and played it that reached epic level, it has never happened.

Due to the fact that my dream arsenal is a belt that gives me +100 to all my stats, attacks, saves, and all skills, I can agree with that.

[Imperial Overlord]

What you posted is not on that page. It just gives an example of a shop that does do that. It in no way changes what is listed in the DMG.

Use your brain. The best broker in a mega wealthy, planar hub metropolis can't deliver what you claim can be found in any ordinary city. Since I have to spell it out to you slowly, that means while you may be able to find some magic items, and possibly some very powerful magic items, you are by no means guarranteed to anything you want.

Then you completely ignore Shape Change's ability to allow a wizard to go head to head with creatures with unbeatable spell resistance while denegrading its effectiveness and then insisting that it allows near equal footing with a LA +12 creature. You can produce no other spell that gives equal power.

How ever things like the +6 to a stat and +5 ring/amulet should be fairly easy to find, as should bracers of armor +8 for high level characters of 18-20th level. Considering their cost anyway. Armors of Fortification are also fairly cheap, and can easily be contracted out, especially at epic level.

That's nice. It even works sometimes. On the other hand, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes they don't have the items you want and sometimes you can't go shopping, such as when you are slogging through the Underdark with a deadline. And some classes, like the wizard and sorcerer, can't use the fortification armour that you are relentless harping on in an attempt to say that immunity to critical hits is no big deal. The Rogue and the archer in my party, for example, preferr bonuses that enhance stealth, movement, and how much of their dex bonus they can use on armour class. There are trade offs and they have costs.