Did Einstein play a part in the atomic bomb?

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

tharkûn
Tireless defender of wealthy businessmen
Posts: 2806
Joined: 2002-07-08 10:03pm

Post by tharkûn »

This isn't entirely true either. Japan offered to surrender on several occasions, but those occasions were not UNCONDITIONAL. The US wanted...demanded nothing short of unconditional surrender. If one wants to make the case, one could say that the war could have ended sooner had the US accepted their conditions.
:roll: These are the Potsdam demands of substance:

Following are our terms. We will not deviate from them. There are no alternatives. We shall brook no delay.

6 There must be eliminated for all time the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest, for we insist that a new order of peace, security and justice will be impossible until irresponsible militarism is driven from the world.

7 Until such a new order is established and until there is convincing proof that Japan's war-making power is destroyed, points in Japanese territory to be designated by the Allies shall be occupied to secure the achievement of the basic objectives we are here setting forth.

8 The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine.

9 The Japanese military forces, after being completely disarmed, shall be permitted to return to their homes with the opportunity to lead peaceful and productive lives.

10 We do not intend that the Japanese shall be enslaved as a race or destroyed as a nation, but stern justice shall be meted out to all war criminals, including those who have visited cruelties upon our prisoners. The Japanese Government shall remove all obstacles to the revival and strengthening of democratic tendencies among the Japanese people. Freedom of speech, of religion, and of thought, as well as respect for the fundamental human rights shall be established.

11 Japan shall be permitted to maintain such industries as will sustain her economy and permit the exaction of just reparations in kind, but not those which would enable her to re-arm for war. To this end, access to, as distinguished from control of, raw materials shall be permitted. Eventual Japanese participation in world trade relations shall be permitted.

12 The occupying forces of the Allies shall be withdrawn from Japan as soon as these objectives have been accomplished and there has been established in accordance with the freely expressed will of the Japanese people a peacefully inclined and responsible government.

13 We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction.


No given that atrocities committed by Japan, their sneak attack upon the US, and their abominable treatment of Allied POWs, these are not unreasonable. Official Japanese response was rather simple:
"As for the Government, it does not find any important value in it; the government will just ignore* it"

The Japanese government was given a wonderful oppurtunity to openly declare their surrender terms; the responded with silence. Even as late as August second Togo was having trouble defining actual surrender terms to have his ambassador in the USSR offer up (the ambassador quite wisely pointed out that unconditional surrender, barring the destruction of the monarchy was the only viable choice).

After both bombs leveled their targets and invasion of Manchuria by the USSR, the ruling junta split 3 - 3 with three argueing to accept Potsdam, while preserving the autocracy of the Emperor and 3 insisting that Japan not be occupied, see to her own disarmament, and try her own war criminals.

The emperor directly intervened and an offer was made to accept Potsdam, while preserving the political power of the Emperor and the Imperial system. This would have been akin to leaving Hitler and the Nazis in power in Germany. So the US did some leaflet drops and eventually the government decided to accept the Potsdam terms. Of course there was an attempted coup and a few instances of seppuku.

To whit the Allies gave Japan one final offer for peace - get rid of the warmongering, genocidal government who started all their problems, surrender outlying territory, and be prepared to be occupied. Japan refused to accept this even after two atom bombs. Their terms were farcical and self-serving.

The A-bombs were needed as it took TWO of the suckers to convince a Japan that knew it was destinied for defeat to finally submit to regime change, occupation, and victor's trial of war criminals.

Anyone who thinks peace was viable prior to the bombing is as delusional as the murderous scum who made them necessary in WWII.[/i]
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.
tharkûn
Tireless defender of wealthy businessmen
Posts: 2806
Joined: 2002-07-08 10:03pm

Post by tharkûn »

*the exact term does not translate well. It could also mean 'hold in contempt' or similar. This does not change the fact that the Imperial government was remarkedly silent following Potsdam.
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Post by Patrick Degan »

CaptJodan wrote:It's well known anyway that the firebombing of Tokyo was far more devastating in civilian losses than both of the two bombs combined. In addition, over the course of the war, you had civilian losses which put the A-bomb numbers to shame. Roughly 350,000 civilians over the course of the entire war died in Japan. Compare that to Germany's loss of 2 million, China's loss of 9 million, or the USSR's loss of over 19 million civilian dead. 1.5 million died for the battle of Leningrad alone (though that could be combined military and civilian losses).

Civilians die in all wars, whether using sticks and stones, knives, guns, bombs or super bombs. And it's a damn shame. Holding up the A-Bomb as being MORE horrific than the daily grinding of killing off 1.5 million people over two years doesn't make sense. It's just a slower death (some of which was by starvation, a pretty nasty way to go, really).
No, it was a marked qualitative change in the nature of war and the more horrific and unanswerable by definition. The devastation wrought by the Tokyo raids required several B29 squadrons and two days to accomplish. Leningrad was the result of a 969-day siege. The atomic bomb packs all that destructive power into one neat package and accomplishes comparable levels of death in one second of the blast.

The Japanese leadership counted on inflicting enough casualties on the invasion forces to force the Allies to make a deal, and counted on their nation to endure that daily grind of killing until the other side said "enough of this already". With one stroke, the Bomb nullified that equation entirely. Faced with that reality, surrender and as quickly as possible became the only sane alternative.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
User avatar
SoX
Padawan Learner
Posts: 286
Joined: 2003-03-11 04:38pm
Location: Sheffield Uni, UK
Contact:

Post by SoX »

For me the key to the fact that E=mc^2 leads to a nuke was the realisation of the Nuclear Binding Energy. The fact that energy is released when nuclei are broken apart and form 2 nuclei of different elements.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... ucbin.html

and

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... ng.html#c1

jsut by looking at E=mc^2 i wouldnt have realised this, but my physics tutor took me through it, and as soon as i saw the nulcear binding energy equations i realised how nukes worked physically.

I like this graph:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... /bcurv.gif

That lead me to realise, eventually, everything will decay to Iron... if the universe lasts that long.
"groovy" - Ash, Evil Dead 2.
"no prizes for guessing 'the colour of the grass on the otherside' or the time on the moon" - Either Nick, Rye or Tony.
Image
"your pills your grass your tits your ass"
" i pitty teh poor foo's that have to suffer Troy's anti-plan field"
"Escaped mental patients make better lovers" - Graffiti near Uni.
WyrdNyrd
Jedi Knight
Posts: 693
Joined: 2005-02-01 05:02am

Post by WyrdNyrd »

The fact that nuclear decay released huge amounts of energy was known independently of e=mc^2, which, by the way, was a minor, side-issue in the greater Special Theory of Relativity.

The whole idea that Einstein declared "e=mc^2", and suddenly Hiroshima was dust, is the most absurb and ludicrous hyper-simplification in the history of time! </rant>
Post Reply