Psionics and other varient magics in D&D.

[lance]

Use your brain. The best broker in a mega wealthy, planar hub metropolis can't deliver what you claim can be found in any ordinary city. Since I have to spell it out to you slowly, that means while you may be able to find some magic items, and possibly some very powerful magic items, you are by no means guarranteed to anything you want.

I think that maybe cause he deals with contracting things out as opposed to selling general magical loot. If on the unlikely chance that you can't find it, you go to him and contract it out. Also if shop A doesn't have what you want you go to shops b-z. And if they don't have it you track down someone who has the item like a punk kid who's great-great grandaddy was a famous adventurer, and do some bargaining.

Then you completely ignore Shape Change's ability to allow a wizard to go head to head with creatures with unbeatable spell resistance while denegrading its effectiveness and then insisting that it allows near equal footing with a LA +12 creature. You can produce no other spell that gives equal power.

Did you miss the part where I said the orb spells where a much better choice than shape change when dealing with this? It only gives equal power when you are nearly the same level, and thus having nearly the same ECL. A 17th level wizard is not going to hold a candle to a demilich no matter what he has going on for him. A higher level one will be comparable.

How ever things like the +6 to a stat and +5 ring/amulet should be fairly easy to find, as should bracers of armor +8 for high level characters of 18-20th level. Considering their cost anyway. Armors of Fortification are also fairly cheap, and can easily be contracted out, especially at epic level.

That's nice. It even works sometimes. On the other hand, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes they don't have the items you want and sometimes you can't go shopping, such as when you are slogging through the Underdark with a deadline. And some classes, like the wizard and sorcerer, can't use the fortification armour that you are relentless harping on in an attempt to say that immunity to critical hits is no big deal. The Rogue and the archer in my party, for example, preferr bonuses that enhance stealth, movement, and how much of their dex bonus they can use on armour class. There are trade offs and they have costs.

Then the Rogue, archer, wizard and sorceror can get a mithreral buckler of fortification. As for the slogging through an adventure on a deadline, you have a point, but that is campain specific.

[Imperial Overlord]

I think that maybe cause he deals with contracting things out as opposed to selling general magical loot. If on the unlikely chance that you can't find it, you go to him and contract it out. Also if shop A doesn't have what you want you go to shops b-z. And if they don't have it you track down someone who has the item like a punk kid who's great-great grandaddy was a famous adventurer, and do some bargaining.

Nice dodge. The fact remains that for their to be big business for a major magic item broker in Union, you can't just find anything you want by going from shop b-z. Otherwise he wouldn't have a business. Clearly you can find a lot, but it isn't likely to be quite what you had in mind.

Did you miss the part where I said the orb spells where a much better choice than shape change when dealing with this? It only gives equal power when you are nearly the same level, and thus having nearly the same ECL. A 17th level wizard is not going to hold a candle to a demilich no matter what he has going on for him. A higher level one will be comparable.

Tiny target. Inherent bonus to AC of a minimum of 21. Good flying speed. Short ranged spell. Inherent Energy resistance. Magic items. Defensive spells. Orb spells are better than nothing, but have to overcome a lot of barriers.

Then the Rogue, archer, wizard and sorceror can get a mithreral buckler of fortification.

Fortification is an armour property, not a shield property.

As for the slogging through an adventure on a deadline, you have a point, but that is campain specific.

If you're playing a real campaign it will come up and it should come up a lot in epic. Go flip through the table of one hundred epic adventure seeds. Time is of the essence in a lot of them. When a devestation spider starts laying waste to the kingdom, taking a week long shopping trip to Union has unpleasant consequences.

[Raxmei]

Then the Rogue, archer, wizard and sorceror can get a mithreral buckler of fortification.

Fortification is an armour property, not a shield property.

"Fortification: This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally."
Personally I think it's dodgy to use a shield without shield proficiency and then bypass the associated (rather weak) penalties using mithral. I'm sure there are a number of houserules to fix that. By the way, has anyone noticed that people on message boards dedicated to specific games are often unusually averse to house rules?
If you go by the Armaments and Equipment Guide you can also put Fortification on bracers of armor.

[Imperial Overlord]

I stand corrected then. I was sure it was armour only because it worked by reinforcing the coverage vulnerable spots. Probably a 3.5 change.

And of course its dodgy. Power gaming is all about dodgy.

[lance]

Nice dodge. The fact remains that for their to be big business for a major magic item broker in Union, you can't just find anything you want by going from shop b-z. Otherwise he wouldn't have a business. Clearly you can find a lot, but it isn't likely to be quite what you had in mind.

I never said that you could find anything you want. I said you could most likely find anything you want. Assuming that most likely means at least 51%, then 49% of the time they would have to turn to him. Considering the amount of items there are in D&D or just in the DMG, that is a nice portion of the market.

Did you miss the part where I said the orb spells where a much better choice than shape change when dealing with this? It only gives equal power when you are nearly the same level, and thus having nearly the same ECL. A 17th level wizard is not going to hold a candle to a demilich no matter what he has going on for him. A higher level one will be comparable.

Tiny target. Inherent bonus to AC of a minimum of 21. Good flying speed. Short ranged spell. Inherent Energy resistance. Magic items. Defensive spells. Orb spells are better than nothing, but have to overcome a lot of barriers.

A wizard is going to have 43+dex to his attack, the lich is going to have a touch ac of 42+dex. A Enhanced Orb of Force after empowering, maximize, and is going to deal a 120 damage+10d6, and he can repeat this another time in the round and follow up with a timestop and spam delayed orb spells.

If you're playing a real campaign it will come up and it should come up a lot in epic. Go flip through the table of one hundred epic adventure seeds. Time is of the essence in a lot of them. When a devestation spider starts laying waste to the kingdom, taking a week long shopping trip to Union has unpleasant consequences.

Right, that is why you wait until after the adventure to take a vacation, bask in glory, and take a shopping spree.

[Imperial Overlord]

.
A wizard is going to have 43+dex to his attack, the lich is going to have a touch ac of 42+dex.

Right. The wizard is going to have an obscenely enhanced dex, the demilich isn't, and has nothing like size, shield (remember that 1st level spell?), or deflection bonuses. Very convienent and completely unlikely.

A Enhanced Orb of Force after empowering, maximize, and is going to deal a 120 damage+10d6, and he can repeat this another time in the round and follow up with a timestop and spam delayed orb spells.

Lots of feets. Lots of spell slots. Lots of misses. Against a foe that's energy resistant, can pack energy resistance spells. And you can't cast attack spells while under the influence of timestop, but you can throw on lots of energy resistance while under it. Oops.

Right, that is why you wait until after the adventure to take a vacation, bask in glory, and take a shopping spree.

Indeed. And while you will find some nice items, they won't be the ones that perfectly match up to your needs against your next set of opponents.

[lance]

.
A wizard is going to have 43+dex to his attack, the lich is going to have a touch ac of 42+dex.

Right. The wizard is going to have an obscenely enhanced dex, the demilich isn't, and has nothing like size, shield (remember that 1st level spell?), or deflection bonuses. Very convienent and completely unlikely.

Dex was not included in the equation. Sheild does not apply to touch attacks. Deflection and size are included.

A Enhanced Orb of Force after empowering, maximize, and is going to deal a 120 damage+10d6, and he can repeat this another time in the round and follow up with a timestop and spam delayed orb spells.

Lots of feets. Lots of spell slots. Lots of misses. Against a foe that's energy resistant, can pack energy resistance spells. And you can't cast attack spells while under the influence of timestop, but you can throw on lots of energy resistance while under it. Oops.

Yes it is a lot of feats. But they are worth it in almost all situations. The misses will be at 5%. Energy resistance does not apply to orb of force. And you can cast attack spells while under timestop. However you can't target so the timestop point is conceeded.

Right, that is why you wait until after the adventure to take a vacation, bask in glory, and take a shopping spree.

Indeed. And while you will find some nice items, they won't be the ones that perfectly match up to your needs against your next set of opponents.

Strawman. I never said they could tailor themselves to the next encounter. They maybe able to, but in all likely hood they will just buy an upgrade in one of their existing items.

[Imperial Overlord]

Dex was not included in the equation.

Plain dishonest then to include the wizard's dex and not the demilichs.. If the hypothetical wizard can manage the 42 Dex, so can the demilich. At any rates it will roughly cancel and leave the wizard trying to hit a very, very high touch armour class.

Sheild does not apply to touch attacks.

Right. Sorry, used to 3.0 where it does.

Deflection and size are included.

Really? Let's give a theoretical run down. Wizard +16 BAB, +10 dex mod, total +26. Demil lich 10 base +5 deflection +21 insight, + 10, +4 size dex=50. Natural 20 required. The wizard can stack on more bonuses, but so can the demilich. The exact numbers will vary, but its still a tough shot. And then there are little tricks like displacment.

Yes it is a lot of feats. But they are worth it in almost all situations. The misses will be at 5%.

See above
Against a tiny target with a titanic insight bonus to AC and whatever dex, dodge, deflection etcetera it can muster? Cast by a wizard. Bullshit.

Energy resistance does not apply to orb of force.

Which does less damage.

[lance]

Dex was not included in the equation.

Plain dishonest then to include the wizard's dex and not the demilichs.. If the hypothetical wizard can manage the 42 Dex, so can the demilich. At any rates it will roughly cancel and leave the wizard trying to hit a very, very high touch armour class.

Dex was not included in the calculations for either character.

Deflection and size are included.

Really? Let's give a theoretical run down. Wizard +16 BAB, +10 dex mod, total +26. Demil lich 10 base +5 deflection +21 insight, + 10, +4 size dex=50. Natural 20 required. The wizard can stack on more bonuses, but so can the demilich. The exact numbers will vary, but its still a tough shot. And then there are little tricks like displacment.

The wizard has a +25 insight bonus to his attack from moment of precience. Blur and displacement are neutered by trueseeing, which my not be up all the time, but can easily be cast when needed.

Energy resistance does not apply to orb of force.

Which does less damage.[/quote] Still enough to one hit KO a demilich on average.

[Imperial Overlord]

That will work but

1) It requires the wizard to have a very narrow list of specific feats and spells known and prepared. That requires specific preperation and adequately favorable circumstances for employment. This is a fairly demanding requirment.

2) It requires the demilich not to have appropriate protective measures (one globe of invulnerability, for example). Also zapping itself several times with enervation or energy drain will give it buckets of temporary hitpoints and allow it to take far more punishment than the wizard.

3) It is much easier for the demilich to kill the wizard. The soul suck alone is obscenely lethal to arcane casters. And he doesn't need a narrow spell list to be lethal.

4) The lich will be back the next day. A soul sucked wizard won't be.

5) While a PC maybe be capable of the above, most enemies will not. Which makes the character completely overpowered compared to the other players when dealing with what kind of opposition they face.

[lance]

That will work but

1) It requires the wizard to have a very narrow list of specific feats and spells known and prepared. That requires specific preperation and adequately favorable circumstances for employment. This is a fairly demanding requirment.

It isn't all that narrow considering my build is complete overkill. You could drop 1 autohaste and 1 multispell and still more than likely drop the demilich. The circumstances are close to equal, the only active buffs are the ones that last almost all of the day.

2) It requires the demilich not to have appropriate protective measures (one globe of invulnerability, for example). Also zapping itself several times with enervation or energy drain will give it buckets of temporary hitpoints and allow it to take far more punishment than the wizard.

The forty extra HPs won't matter, globe of invulnerability
lasts rounds per level and would not be expected to be up at all times, and if the demilich get's the inititive his going on the offensive is a much greater choice.

3) It is much easier for the demilich to kill the wizard. The soul suck alone is obscenely lethal to arcane casters. And he doesn't need a narrow spell list to be lethal.

The spell list is not all that narrow, only 3 7th, 3 eighth, 4 9th are covered.

4) The lich will be back the next day. A soul sucked wizard won't be.

He will be back in a d10 days. Even if he is back he is going to be short a soul suck ability after the wizard smashes his crystals. Leaving him not only out 38K exp and a million GP, but a lott less offense capable.

5) While a PC maybe be capable of the above, most enemies will not. Which makes the character completely overpowered compared to the other players when dealing with what kind of opposition they face.

A npc can perform the required feats just fine. Most monsters have a Fort save high enough they can take the souldrain easily. Also the demilich will still be limited to 8 souls per day.

[Imperial Overlord]

A specific build relying on specific non core spells, prep time, the demi not killing you first, and not say throwing up a quickened globe of his own or packing a spell turning. And even if he loses he gets another shot. The demi wins, there is no next time.

Yes, the extra hitpoints matter, since the build you propose can barely do enough damage to kill him at base hp. If you hit and if it isn't packing say Elminster Effulgent Effulsion.

Most NPCs won't have those feats or spells. I don't have a character with all of those spells and I play wizards.

You can kill a demilich, with the right spells and preperations and suppossing he doesn't kill you first. On the other hand, you only need to worry about the last for killing most other epic level characters.

I don't have to prove the demi inkillable, just unbalanced. The fact that a PC wizards need a specific set of spells preped and prepared ahead of time, some of them non core material, just to have a chance to do half the job proves my point.

[lance]

A specific build relying on specific non core spells, prep time, the demi not killing you first, and not say throwing up a quickened globe of his own or packing a spell turning. And even if he loses he gets another shot. The demi wins, there is no next time.

This is not a specific build. A specific build would involve incantatrix, archmage and shatter. The demilich is noncore itself. The lich either won't live long enough to put up the globe, or he will go on the offensive instead. Spell turning doesn't work on ranged touches. If he loses, he loses his souldrain ability. Meaning he is no longer a threat to anybody comparable to him or the wizard. Also a couple visions and a teleport will lead to that phylactery being grounded dust.

Yes, the extra hitpoints matter, since the build you propose can barely do enough damage to kill him at base hp. If you hit and if it isn't packing say Elminster Effulgent Effulsion.

He can do enough to take down the lich with max HP and these temporary hitpoints.

Most NPCs won't have those feats or spells. I don't have a character with all of those spells and I play wizards.

To each their own. My character at epic would have a simililar spell and feat list. I might have picked up tenacious magic or staff mastery instead of a multispell.

You can kill a demilich, with the right spells and preperations and suppossing he doesn't kill you first. On the other hand, you only need to worry about the last for killing most other epic level characters.

Any caster battle at this level is going to have a 'suppossing he dosn't kill you fist' clause.

I don't have to prove the demi inkillable, just unbalanced. The fact that a PC wizards need a specific set of spells preped and prepared ahead of time, some of them non core material, just to have a chance to do half the job proves my point.

You have yet to prove it isn't balanced. A wizard is either going to need a similiar spell list to kill another wizard at this level or mordikens disjunction, and that wizard has a higher chance of living through it. The only spell that I would loath to change any spell on this list. Also a wizard could use shatter to kill the demilich a lot more effectively. He wouldn't need to use the quickened Moment of precience and could cast an extra shatter.

[Imperial Overlord]

Spell turning does work on ranged touches, it doesn't work on touches. And we can hardly talk about epic without using the epic rulebook. The notoriously broken complete series is another matter.

The demilich can quicken spells (like globe of invulnerability) just like anyone else.

The wizard might do enough damage. If he hits and rolls well. And has the right spells. And the demilich doesn't have defences up.

Shatter does half damage and the demilich gets a save. It won't do enough damage quickly without twin spelling, quickening, and intensifying. Again you're still using spells from non core sources. Hell, I don't even know what Moment of Presience does.

A wizard can use a completely different spell list to kill another wizard at this level.

But only a very narrow, specific choice gives you any chance against a demilich, one which most monsters, npcs, and characters are unlikely to have for anything but a pre planned encounter and possibly not even then. And you are still likely to lose to the demilich and even if it does lose, it will come back. You lose, permadeath.

[lance]

Spell turning does work on ranged touches, it doesn't work on touches. And we can hardly talk about epic without using the epic rulebook.

point

The notoriously broken complete series is another matter.

Most of the complete series is just fine. Only a few specific things are broken. The orb spells aren't exactly broken though.

The demilich can quicken spells (like globe of invulnerability) just like anyone else.

Yeah, but why would it want to? The fight is going to be over on the first round.

The wizard might do enough damage. If he hits and rolls well. And has the right spells. And the demilich doesn't have defences up.

Any defences can be removed with mordikens disjunction. The wizard needs to get better than 3 to hit, and needs to roll slightly above average to kill a demilich with both max hp and temp HPs from Energy Drain.

Shatter does half damage and the demilich gets a save. It won't do enough damage quickly without twin spelling, quickening, and intensifying. Again you're still using spells from non core sources. Hell, I don't even know what Moment of Presience does.

Half damage is enough, he'll get 3 of them. I applied the same metamagic feats that I applied to the orb spells with another enhance. Though twin would be a better choice. Moment of prescience is an 8th level spell in the players handbook. It doesn't help with the shatter offensive.

A wizard can use a completely different spell list to kill another wizard at this level.

Not as effectively. This doesn't give the other guy a chance to do squat.

But only a very narrow, specific choice gives you any chance against a demilich, one which most monsters, npcs, and characters are unlikely to have for anything but a pre planned encounter and possibly not even then. And you are still likely to lose to the demilich and even if it does lose, it will come back. You lose, permadeath.

If the demilich loses it is going to have his soulgems and in all likely hood, his phylactery smashed. Most monsters at this level can make the save on his trap the soul, can hit him and deal enough damage to make him disappear for d10 days. There will be an issue of hitting a flying opponent, but the same would be true if it was a wizard. Also mages disjunction has a chance of destroying the soulgems. A cleric can cast antimagic field and bludgen the lich to death with his mace. If the demilich fails his save a sorceror has a good chance at taking down the demilich with shatter.

[Imperial Overlord]

Globe of invulnerability will stop orb spells, shatter, and holy smite which pretty much sums up the list of spells a demilich is vulnerable too. It's nice to be invulnerable to your opponents attacks in case he lives through yours. Since you're whipping out any feat combos you choose to name, having a spell turning effect or globe of invunerability be part of a spell mantle would be quite handy. So would a ring of counterspelling.

The orb spells aren't bad, but the typical character can't rely on them being available.

Shatter does half damage before the save and tops out at 10d6. Even being intensified thats 60 pts before half damage save. Not fatal enough.
Three shatters requires another batch of feats and are easily spell turned, globed, and contingently counter spelled away.. A demilich only has to worry about a few spells, after all.

Disjunction can be bring down defences, supposing it isn't counter spelled. And this hurts the wizard a lot more because he doesn't have an obscene battery of extraordinary ability natural defences.

Some monsters can make the save fairly easily, but having a full arsenal of spells and a sky high casting stat leaves the demilich in good stead. Most of them will have difficulty hitting the little bastards armour class as well, which isn't going to make things any easier.

A cleric can't catch a demilich once he's thrown up an antimagic shell. The little bastard can just fly away, use its Greater Planar Ally ability to bring in some bruisers and come back to finish off said cleric latter.

[lance]

Globe of invulnerability will stop orb spells, shatter, and holy smite which pretty much sums up the list of spells a demilich is vulnerable too. It's nice to be invulnerable to your opponents attacks in case he lives through yours. Since you're whipping out any feat combos you choose to name, having a spell turning effect or globe of invunerability be part of a spell mantle would be quite handy. So would a ring of counterspelling.

The wizard can cast mages disjunction, shapeshift into any undead or construct, and hit the demilich with a orbs or shatter. The demilich maybe able to counterspell one of the spells, but he is still going to be hurt. On his round he can either heal himself, teleport away, or try attacking. Considering that he can't due jack to the wizard with him being a golem, running away would be a good choice. That is if he survives the orb. Also odds are 3/4 of his soul gems would have been destroyed. Also the demilich has no viable offense. If the spell caster has shapechanged into a golem his sould drain ability won't work, if he disjuctions he can't souldrain, then the wizard has a lot higher chance of taking down the demilich than the demilich does the wizard.

The orb spells aren't bad, but the typical character can't rely on them being available.

Most DMs I know allow them. Shatter works almost as well for the wizard. Grossly inferior for the sorceror.

Shatter does half damage before the save and tops out at 10d6. Even being intensified thats 60 pts before half damage save. Not fatal enough.
Three shatters requires another batch of feats and are easily spell turned, globed, and contingently counter spelled away.. A demilich only has to worry about a few spells, after all.

I applied a lot of feats to said shatters, like enhance, twin, and maximize. Contigency would be better of teleporting the demilich away. This is a fight he really can't win.

Disjunction can be bring down defences, supposing it isn't counter spelled. And this hurts the wizard a lot more because he doesn't have an obscene battery of extraordinary ability natural defences.

If it is countered then he can do another one. If the demilich casts one on the wizard it loses its chance to use his kill spells, or his soul suck. But considering his complete lack of offense it maybe his best choice. Meaning he is going to be orbed up the ass on the wizards turn.

Some monsters can make the save fairly easily, but having a full arsenal of spells and a sky high casting stat leaves the demilich in good stead. Most of them will have difficulty hitting the little bastards armour class as well, which isn't going to make things any easier.

No, they are going to hit him on very low roles in most cases and can deal enough damage to leave the party short handed for a few days. His spells are nothing to cry home about. A wizard will be throwing 3 spells a turn and can get pass spell resistance. The boost to his DC won't matter a whole lot if he can't get through the SR. I can't think of any spells that require a save and don't allow for spell resistance off hand.

A cleric can't catch a demilich once he's thrown up an antimagic shell. The little bastard can just fly away, use its Greater Planar Ally ability to bring in some bruisers and come back to finish off said cleric latter.

I was thinking something like Miracle a dimension door, quickend antimagic field. Then watch the Demilich flop away like a fish take attack of opportunity, grapple, on his action pin, then make full attacks.

[Imperial Overlord]

Soul Drain is supernatural. Shape change doesn't remove the soul and golems aren't immune to supernatural effects. Still works and can't be spell turned or counter spelled.

You don't have the feats to quicken all of that disjunction-orb barrage while being autostill spelled unless you are well into your thirties level wise. Thats three levels of autoquicken at least to get it to work on your spells and that feat requires Spellcraft at least 30. Since you also need to take autostill spell multiple times, with a minimum Spellcraft requirement of 27, you don't have the feets until you are in the high 30s at the least.

Demilich flight is extraordinary, not supernatural (stupid, but it is a munchkin). It'll fly just fine in an antimagic zone.

Lots of creatures (and PCs and NPCs) don't have kick ass spell resistance. The demilich will do just fine again. And I've already laid down how it can manage a quite respectable spell penetration score.

You have a good method, I freely admit that. But its about the only one that will work, relys on a few specific spells and a specific feet build, and won't perminently kill the bastard even if it works. The demilich, on the other hand, can instantly and permently kill any foe, is almost invulnerable to anything outside a narrow list, has all sorts of useful spell like abilities like harm at will and greater planar ally, and will recover from being destroyed.

Most foes encountered will be able to harm or kill the wizard. Most will have great difficulty in doing so to the demilich, which will have little difficulty in spell blasting, soul sucking, or summoning powerful reinforcements.

[lance]

Soul Drain is supernatural. Shape change doesn't remove the soul and golems aren't immune to supernatural effects. Still works and can't be spell turned or counter spelled.

It doesn't work on non-living creatures

You don't have the feats to quicken all of that disjunction-orb barrage while being autostill spelled unless you are well into your thirties level wise. Thats three levels of autoquicken at least to get it to work on your spells and that feat requires Spellcraft at least 30. Since you also need to take autostill spell multiple times, with a minimum Spellcraft requirement of 27, you don't have the feets until you are in the high 30s at the least.

I go on the offensive, then change form. No still spell needed. Also golems wouldn't need still spell, they would need silent spell.
I was thinking 3 autohastes, a couple of multispells, an enhance, and improved spell capacity.

Demilich flight is extraordinary, not supernatural (stupid, but it is a munchkin). It'll fly just fine in an antimagic zone.

No, speeds above 90 are supernatural.

Lots of creatures (and PCs and NPCs) don't have kick ass spell resistance. The demilich will do just fine again. And I've already laid down how it can manage a quite respectable spell penetration score.

Their are 5 creatures in the epic level handbook that don't have SR. Two of those have a CR under 15. I don't care about goblins and trolls, I care about things like Glooms and Elder Titans. Also you have managed to get +3 against SR. Not exactly making up for your 12 lost levels. You can't use prestige classes because you need to be a 21 level wizard, sorceror, or cleric to become a demilich.

You have a good method, I freely admit that. But its about the only one that will work, relys on a few specific spells and a specific feet build, and won't perminently kill the bastard even if it works. The demilich, on the other hand, can instantly and permently kill any foe, is almost invulnerable to anything outside a narrow list, has all sorts of useful spell like abilities like harm at will and greater planar ally, and will recover from being destroyed.

If it is destroyed then it will in all likely hood have a phylactery of ground powder after the wizard pulls out his scrolls of vision and teleport.

Most foes encountered will be able to harm or kill the wizard. Most will have great difficulty in doing so to the demilich, which will have little difficulty in spell blasting, soul sucking, or summoning powerful reinforcements.

It will have small troubles with soul sucking, namely high saves, sundering, and disjunction. The only blasting is going to come by way of orb spells. It can't summon squat at this level. It's SM 9 is worthless in a fight, I imagine so is its greater planar ally. A wizard can have just as many immunities as the lich. Can get ressurected in most scenarios, can fly, neither has an AC that will help them against monsters.

[Imperial Overlord]

Soul Drain is supernatural. Shape change doesn't remove the soul and golems aren't immune to supernatural effects. Still works and can't be spell turned or counter spelled.

It doesn't work on non-living creatures

Yea, that spell seems to keep giving and giving, doesn't it? No way in hell it could be broken at all. More useful than any other 9th level spell and doesn't even cost xp.

I go on the offensive, then change form. No still spell needed. Also golems wouldn't need still spell, they would need silent spell.
I was thinking 3 autohastes, a couple of multispells, an enhance, and improved spell capacity.

Still need multiple silent spell feets to go along with your multiple autospells. What do you mean by autohaste?

No, speeds above 90 are supernatural.

Where is that stated?

Their are 5 creatures in the epic level handbook that don't have SR. Two of those have a CR under 15. I don't care about goblins and trolls, I care about things like Glooms and Elder Titans. Also you have managed to get +3 against SR. Not exactly making up for your 12 lost levels. You can't use prestige classes because you need to be a 21 level wizard, sorceror, or cleric to become a demilich.

Your math is wrong. +4 with greater penetration, +6 with epic. 21st level is the only requirement and the minimum. Nothing prohibits it from having a few levels of arch-mage in addition.

Now lets talk SR. You have completely left out advanced creatures and creatures with character levels. From the campaign I ran here are some monsters I had which had either easily beatable SR or were virtually invulnerable to magic.

High level fighters, mages, and clerics
20th level mindflayer Psion
27th level mindflayer wizard
winterwights
iron golems, mithril golems, and adamantine golems
Custom constructs with built in disintigration rods
27th level wizard lich
Advanced nightshade
balor and several other demons with character levels
minor demonlord
great wyrm shadow dragon (attacking from ambush no warning of shadow dragon presence in the area)
Fiendish half red dragon cloud giants with character levels
pseudonatural trolls
white slaad
black slaad
death slaad assassin (at least 13th level)
beholder mage and advanced beholders
Pack of red dragons (varying ages)
Divine Avatar
paragon mindlfayer

If it is destroyed then it will in all likely hood have a phylactery of ground powder after the wizard pulls out his scrolls of vision and teleport.

Thats a hell of an assumption regarding how well defended it is.

] It will have small troubles with soul sucking, namely high saves, sundering, and disjunction.

How is sundering an factor?

The only blasting is going to come by way of orb spells. It can't summon squat at this level.

See above.

It's SM 9 is worthless in a fight, I imagine so is its greater planar ally.

Read the spell and get back to me.

A wizard can have just as many immunities as the lich.

Only as long as its running Shape Change, which is disjoinable

Can get ressurected in most scenarios, can fly, neither has an AC that will help them against monsters.

The Demilich has a huge AC. 40 from size, natural armour, and minimum insight bonus before he starts stacking magic on top of it. Try to be a little fucking honest.

[lance]

Soul Drain is supernatural. Shape change doesn't remove the soul and golems aren't immune to supernatural effects. Still works and can't be spell turned or counter spelled.

It doesn't work on non-living creatures

Yea, that spell seems to keep giving and giving, doesn't it? No way in hell it could be broken at all. More useful than any other 9th level spell and doesn't even cost xp.

Correct, it gives you a creatures type and all benifets and penalties associated with it. It is less useful than timestop until you can get it going all day. No, it doesn't cost xp.

I go on the offensive, then change form. No still spell needed. Also golems wouldn't need still spell, they would need silent spell.
I was thinking 3 autohastes, a couple of multispells, an enhance, and improved spell capacity.

Still need multiple silent spell feets to go along with your multiple autospells. What do you mean by autohaste?

You don't need the silent spells because you don't cast spells while in golem form. Though you could pull out a metamagic rod of silent if need be. By autohaste I meant autoquicken.

No, speeds above 90 are supernatural.

Where is that stated?

I can't seem to find the quote at the moment. How ever on creating the lich it states 'Replace with fly 180 ft. (perfect) or the lich’s supernatural (not natural) fly speed, whichever is better' Seems a good indication that it is supernatural.

Their are 5 creatures in the epic level handbook that don't have SR. Two of those have a CR under 15. I don't care about goblins and trolls, I care about things like Glooms and Elder Titans. Also you have managed to get +3 against SR. Not exactly making up for your 12 lost levels. You can't use prestige classes because you need to be a 21 level wizard, sorceror, or cleric to become a demilich.

Your math is wrong. +4 with greater penetration, +6 with epic. 21st level is the only requirement and the minimum. Nothing prohibits it from having a few levels of arch-mage in addition.

Your right on spell penetration, I thought it and spell focus were dropped to one in 3.5. It was only spell focus though. No it needs to be 'sorcerer, wizard, or cleric of at least 21st level' Now compare to weapon specialization 'fighter level 4' Very similiarly worded. If it was meant for archmages and the like it would have stated Caster level 21.
[/quote]

Now lets talk SR. You have completely left out advanced creatures and creatures with character levels. From the campaign I ran here are some monsters I had which had either easily beatable SR or were virtually invulnerable to magic.

High level fighters, mages, and clerics
20th level mindflayer Psion
27th level mindflayer wizard
winterwights
iron golems, mithril golems, and adamantine golems
Custom constructs with built in disintigration rods
27th level wizard lich
Advanced nightshade
balor and several other demons with character levels
minor demonlord
great wyrm shadow dragon (attacking from ambush no warning of shadow dragon presence in the area)
Fiendish half red dragon cloud giants with character levels
pseudonatural trolls
white slaad
black slaad
death slaad assassin (at least 13th level)
beholder mage and advanced beholders
Pack of red dragons (varying ages)
Divine Avatar
paragon mindlfayer

[/quote] Okay I don't know why you put things that were virtually invulnerable to magic on a list with creatures with easily beatable SR. Also I stated I had taken account only things that were in the epic level handbook. Though by handbook I should have said SRD. Paragon mindflayer, slaad, most likely the red dragons, the golems, the mindflayer wizard and psion and the psudonatual troll are all a 6 CRs lower than the liches ECL. Not exactly supposed to be threatening.

If it is destroyed then it will in all likely hood have a phylactery of ground powder after the wizard pulls out his scrolls of vision and teleport.

Thats a hell of an assumption regarding how well defended it is.

Right, because a being that spent a 1/3 of its gold on itself is going to have the resouces just sitting at home to fend of a being that is just as powerful as itself.

It will have small troubles with soul sucking, namely high saves, sundering, and disjunction.

How is sundering an factor?

Because those little gems that are sitting in the liches eye socket are a hell of a lot easier to hit than he is.

The only blasting is going to come by way of orb spells. It can't summon squat at this level.

See above.

It's SM 9 is worthless in a fight, I imagine so is its greater planar ally.

Read the spell and get back to me.

unless your planning on summoning paragon astral devas it is worthless at this level.

A wizard can have just as many immunities as the lich.

Only as long as its running Shape Change, which is disjoinable

True. But it is also recastable.

Can get ressurected in most scenarios, can fly, neither has an AC that will help them against monsters.

The Demilich has a huge AC. 40 from size, natural armour, and minimum insight bonus before he starts stacking magic on top of it. Try to be a little fucking honest.

It will have an AC of about 60, lets look at a few creatures of comparable level and check their attacks. Dream larva has +56/51, Infernal 56/50, phaeton 83, phane 43 touch, xixcacal 93, colossus 70+, Force dragon60-64, prismatic 49-56, Elemental primal 79+, Genius Loci 64, Gibbering orb 31 touch 28 melee, Gloom +54, adamantine golem +58, protean +53, Hoary hunter +46, huneffer +44, leshay+53, Living Vault +99 brain collector +26, primasaurus+72, shadow of void, shape of fire +25 touch, 3headed sirrush +63, black slaad +43, Elder titan 87, treant elder 49,umbral blot 42 touch,uvuudaum 51. Most of the ones with in a few spaces of the lichs ECL are like 20 above the liches AC. Like Elder titan, living vault, colossus, elemental primal. I was overstating a little, but at the rate this is going AC is going to be worthless real soon.

[SirNitram]

Most of the complete series is just fine. Only a few specific things are broken. The orb spells aren't exactly broken though.

This thread, or more specifically, your autofellatic trainwreck of it, have proven your view of 'broken' as 'Even the Character Optimization Min Maxers admit it's stupidly cheesy', not anything to do with a normal group. You simply invoke the usual bullshit. Question the definition of 'powergaming', invoke various bullshit about how 'normal' groups are much more like yours, really, honest, I SWEAR TO GOD THEY ARE, and other such blatant falsehoods.

[Imperial Overlord]

Nothing prevents a demilich from having levels of archmage. I merely requires 21 levels or wizard, cleric, or sorcerer. Damn you are dense. Or dishonest.

I should remind you that a player can become a 21wiz/2archmage, become a lich, then a demilich, and then spend 12 levels worth of earning the next character level. That's what's likely to happen in a real group and a serious problem for the DM with a bunch of 23rd level adventurers and a 23rd level demilich.

The whole point of the monster list, which you are dodging like a maniac, was to list creatures an actual epic level party might encounter in which the difference in spell penetration, which you are fucking harping on, is a minor consideration. The actual CRs of the critters runs the gamut, because some of critters were encountered when the characters' level in the low 20s, some higher.

Thanks for the half concession on AC. Now lets finish it. Lots of those creatures have multiple itterative attacks. Being able to hit easily with the first doesn't mean the fourth will hit. Not to mention not having to worry about sneak attacks, vorpal crits, energy drain, or stat damage that a lot of those creatures pack. Most of the party, and any caster not currently shape changed into an appropriately invulnerable form. And on that, for the record, do you think a character will be shape changed into an iron golem while shopping?

You're assumption that you will always have the right spells prepared for the given situation, spells that only showed up in your latter posts as the choices in your early on were not so effective as well as the laughable assumption that the combat will always be on your terms, not an ambush or surprise attack by your enemies, is completely removed the experience of any game I have played or run.

[lance]

Most of the complete series is just fine. Only a few specific things are broken. The orb spells aren't exactly broken though.

This thread, or more specifically, your autofellatic trainwreck of it, have proven your view of 'broken' as 'Even the Character Optimization Min Maxers admit it's stupidly cheesy', not anything to do with a normal group. You simply invoke the usual bullshit. Question the definition of 'powergaming',

Broken is relative thing. What may be broken in your campain may be weak in anothers. I found only a few things to be broken in the complete books, and grossly broken they were. In my oppinion in order to be broken the character will have to outshine the rest of the party and/or it has to be frustratingly difficult for the DM to challenge you. My party has rarely ever had this problem. We did on occasion, but that tended to be when we first started out and didn't understand the rules, we confused CR with ECL. Another time when we made our own classes, there was a player that could cast spells levels equal to his level.

invoke various bullshit about how 'normal' groups are much more like yours, really, honest, I SWEAR TO GOD THEY ARE, and other such blatant falsehoods.

I did not say anything about how my campains were normal. Some where, some weren't. Only that yours went against the DMG when it came to the purchase of magical items. I don't know if it is normal to follow that part or not. My play group had a basic anything allowed style campains. It worked out fine. I never stated my campain experiances were normal, I am sure a lot of it was, but I am also sure that some things weren't. I don't think most people don't change campains like their socks, but that how my play group went.

[SirNitram]

Most of the complete series is just fine. Only a few specific things are broken. The orb spells aren't exactly broken though.

This thread, or more specifically, your autofellatic trainwreck of it, have proven your view of 'broken' as 'Even the Character Optimization Min Maxers admit it's stupidly cheesy', not anything to do with a normal group. You simply invoke the usual bullshit. Question the definition of 'powergaming',

Broken is relative thing.

Not really, not in a game so rigorously defined by mathematics. Only an imbecile thinks that something so imbued with math and direct rules could be subjective.

Instead, you bring up farcical bullshit about you making up your own classes or not knowing the rules to cause problems; I think anyone reading has come to one of three conclusions:

1) You're outright lying.
2) Your DM is a pussywhipped coward who forks over whatever you want.
3) You've never actually played and just read the CO boards.

invoke various bullshit about how 'normal' groups are much more like yours, really, honest, I SWEAR TO GOD THEY ARE, and other such blatant falsehoods.

I did not say anything about how my campains were normal. Some where, some weren't. Only that yours went against the DMG when it came to the purchase of magical items. I don't know if it is normal to follow that part or not. My play group had a basic anything allowed style campains. It worked out fine. I never stated my campain experiances were normal, I am sure a lot of it was, but I am also sure that some things weren't. I don't think most people don't change campains like their socks, but that how my play group went.

Talking to you is certainly an adventure into questionable grammar. 'I don't think most people don't change campaigns like their socks'. Did you mean the double negative?

Mine have, unsurprisingly, always followed the guidelines in published material. I just realize that this farcical idea that any metropolis will have any item over the limit as for sale if you wander into the right shop has, of course, never been the published intent. You can tell, because of the Union bits Overlord posted, or the FRCS bits, or any of a dozen other niggling little things that utterly destroy your farces of arguments.

But you are a Ferrous Cranus, and thus will continue indefinately.