No Athiests in Foxholes

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2006-02-06 02:02pm

I have never been involved in debates of a religious nature on here but considering some of the doozies I've heard as retorts from Fundies to athiesm I don't recall anyone relating this gem. "There are no athiests in foxholes." which means essentially that soldiers who claim to be athiests are usually caught praying or crying out to god when under some sort of attack.

I remember Sister Mary Catherine smugly telling us something along the lines of "Don't you children ever worry about athiests. There are no true athiests just people pretending to not believe in God because we all know there are no athiests in foxholes." And she went on to explain it to us.

I never got a nasty vibe regarding athiests during my Catholic education - the tone was usually one more of pity. But I was wondering what sort of counter one comes up with to the statement or any like it?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-02-06 02:05pm

It's an argument against foxholes, if you ask me.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-02-06 02:05pm

There are no atheists in foxholes because all the atheists were smart enough to get into tactical command and the airforce.

But seriously, it the quote itself shows that religion is for the fearful. Sure, fear is justifiable in a foxhole, but it doesn't produce clear thinking.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2006-02-06 02:21pm

Complete bullshit! I'm an atheist and I've been in a fox hole.
I also shared a fox hole with an another atheist, but I don't know if he was braver than me.

-Gunhead

Thinkmarble · Post by **Thinkmarble** » 2006-02-06 02:30pm

It is a plain lie.

And as an annotation, a number of people went into the foxholes as believers and went out of it atheist.
The slaughter of war makes the theodice acute.
A nice link on that topic

When facing death, my thought was to stay alive. I was just infuriated by all the people praying and wasting my precious time and theirs. When the chips are down and there's no one to turn to for help, and you've found out that it's just you who has been helping all along, that's the big difference. I discovered in combat that there is no one to turn to - it's just you who has been saving your own ass all along. My answer to death was simply, "Oh well, I'll be pushing daisies." If I survived and looked at another person's death, I'd think it's not my body that's being counted." I was fighting to stay alive - not praying for life after death.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-02-06 02:57pm

My reply? General anecdotes do not arguments make; if he's going to use the "No atheists in foxholes" saying, he'd damn well better back it up with statistics showing that every soldier is not an atheist.

Dillon · Post by **Dillon** » 2006-02-06 03:04pm

I remember Sister Mary Catherine smugly telling us something along the lines of "Don't you children ever worry about athiests. There are no true athiests just people pretending to not believe in God because we all know there are no athiests in foxholes." And she went on to explain it to us.

Let's assume that's true for a second. It would mean a person believe something in a moment of panic and absolute terror, a time when it's a lot harder to think rationally and logically.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2006-02-06 03:30pm

Hey, look! When the Sharks won in OT I celebrated and proclaimed that there was a God. I guess I'm not a true atheist.

Setesh · Post by **Setesh** » 2006-02-06 03:37pm

I remember something on this at http://thewaronfaith.com/ but don't quite remember where. One of his buddies who had seen combat said that the 'bible thumpers' were the first to curl into feotal position in combat.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2006-02-06 03:59pm

To quote, they say "There are no athiests in foxholes." This is not an aurgment aginst Atheists, rather an aurgment aginst foxholes.

As for the pity vibe, pity away. While your praying I'm looking to see where the big bad enemy is coming from. Or exercise's case I'm playing tick-tac-toe on the foxhole walls while we wait it out.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-02-06 04:07pm

The vast majority of the men in the first wave on D-Day prayed before the landing craft hit the shore. Fat lot of good it did them.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-02-06 04:08pm

On a similar note, the majority of professional athletes are deeply superstitious. Does this mean that there must be some truth to the idea that you'll win if you don't wash your jockstrap, or any of the other myriad nonsense superstitious practices common in pro sports locker rooms?

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2006-02-06 04:10pm

Well according to my granddad, now dead, the religious people are the first to die in war.

If they are braver and take risks or dumber and trust in divine intervention I do not know and neither did he.

He was a Finnish soldier in the winter war and the continuation war, he should have known.

Azazal · Post by **Azazal** » 2006-02-06 04:10pm

There are no atheists in foxholes, just like there are no pedophiles in the priesthood... oh wait....

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-02-06 04:47pm

Yeah, it's simply wrong and irrelevent even if it were true; what is it you're saying? People of unsound mind in crazy situations believe in God? Well gee, that makes it more rational/true/whatever.

Oni Koneko Damien · Post by **Oni Koneko Damien** » 2006-02-06 05:33pm

Let's see, my eighth grade history teacher is an atheist...

My eighth grade history teacher was a pointman in Vietnam...

Your cliche is a load of crap.

Raxmei · Post by **Raxmei** » 2006-02-06 06:22pm

"Rod; you're the quiet religious guy who eventually goes nuts." Bart Simpson, going over war movie cliches.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2006-02-06 06:36pm

Stalingrad should put that bullshit to rest once and for all.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2006-02-06 07:21pm

Perhaps the best smart-ass response to this old argument is: "have you taken a poll?"

FSTargetDrone · Post by **FSTargetDrone** » 2006-02-06 07:23pm

Have any of you seen Atheists In Foxholes?

Plenty of real, actual, atheists there.

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2006-02-06 07:50pm

Darth Wong wrote:On a similar note, the majority of professional athletes are deeply superstitious. Does this mean that there must be some truth to the idea that you'll win if you don't wash your jockstrap, or any of the other myriad nonsense superstitious practices common in pro sports locker rooms?

To add to that, it's interesting to look at where some of the superstitions lie.

Take baseball, for example. You often see variations in stance, pre-pitch rituals (I'm looking at you, Ivan Rodriguez and Nomar Garciaparra), and other superstitious motions when the player is up to bat, a time when failing only two-thirds of the time is considered All-Star quality.

Do you see similar things with the fielders, where it's considered ordinary for the player to get that grounder or fly ball 95% of the time?

Or how about gamblers, who have even more intricate rituals to try to boost their success rates?

It's not very surprising that an action with a low chance of individual success (like war) would breed some form of superstition, particularly as the stakes become more and more severe.

Lone_Prodigy · Post by **Lone_Prodigy** » 2006-02-06 08:44pm

The book Fallen Angels by Walter Dean Myers is actually a perfectly good example of why the opposite is true. For those who have not read it:

This is during the middle of the Vietnam War, just before the Tet Offensive. A squad of troopers ended up split into two groups, each in their own foxhole on opposite sides of a road. Both were pinned down by Vietcong fire, with most of the squad and their deeply-religious Lieutenant in one group, and a handful of young boys in the other foxhole. The foxhole with the young boys in it was much more exposed, and as a result they were being torn apart by the enemy machine guns. The Lieutenant completely snapped, grapped the squad's M-60 that they were using to hold the Vietcong back, and charged across the road to save the young men. He went absolutely berserk and managed to kill or drive off all the the Vietcong, but not one of the young men survived. After that he became atheistic, having lost all faith in god.

War is almost always a horrific experience for the soldiers involved who end up having to go head-to-head with the enemy. If anything, that sort of traumatizing experience would drive away religious faith rather than strengthening it.

WyrdNyrd · Post by **WyrdNyrd** » 2006-02-07 03:09am

I believe it was Mike who said something like, "At the end, there were also no atheists in the cockpits of the 9/11 planes..."

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-02-07 03:53am

It's kind of funny that some people assume that once turn away from an religion or never practiced it, but you were raised in a place where that religion is common, you'll never use saying that involve aspects of that religion

in truth an atheist could use "god bless you" or "for god sake" just because they were common saying where he/she grew up.

mr friendly guy · Post by **mr friendly guy** » 2006-02-07 04:16am

Lord Revan wrote:It's kind of funny that some people assume that once turn away from an religion or never practiced it, but you were raised in a place where that religion is common, you'll never use saying that involve aspects of that religion

in truth an atheist could use "god bless you" or "for god sake" just because they were common saying where he/she grew up.

Of course if using the term "for god's sake" is indicative to certain people that you really aren't religious, then I wonder how they would interpret the term "god dammnit" (which I admit I occasionally use).