Relieve Picard of his command?

[Stravo]

Just a thought on Kirk losing his own Enterprise. The Ent Nil was retired by the time he stole it, so it was no longer in active service, thus when she was destroyed she was no longer an active Starfleet vessel, thus you could argue from a certain point of view that Kirk did not lose any of the ships under his command.

[SpyderGS]

Just a thought on Kirk losing his own Enterprise. The Ent Nil was retired by the time he stole it, so it was no longer in active service, thus when she was destroyed she was no longer an active Starfleet vessel, thus you could argue from a certain point of view that Kirk did not lose any of the ships under his command.

It's also an accepted tactic, denial of resources to the enemy. Even if E-nil was an active vessel at the time, while Kirk might have received some annotation to his official record, it would not be the same as having her blown out from under him.

[paladin]

Apoint Baldy as an Ambassador

No, appoint Baldy as Chief Example of Screwing up.

I thought that was Lameway's job!!!

[Ted C]

Anyone have any other examples of less than stellar judgement from Picard?

How about every single time he takes the ship into a combat zone or engages in other hazardous activity without evacuating the numerous civilians (including children) on board?

[Alyeska]

Anyone have any other examples of less than stellar judgement from Picard?

How about every single time he takes the ship into a combat zone or engages in other hazardous activity without evacuating the numerous civilians (including children) on board?

Thats partially Starfleets fault. They stuck him on a ship that the only way to safely remove the civilians quickly is to sacrafice significant combat capability.

[neoolong]

Doesn't he also oftentimes disobey orders and do what he wants? Rightly or wrongly it is still unacceptable behavior.

[Uraniun235]

some snippets cut out
IIRC Stargazer was te victim of an unprovoked attack of a Ferengi (unidentified at that time) ship. Picard ordered abandon ship after sustaining heavy damage.even though years later the ship was still in good enough shape for the Ferengi to get it moving under it's own power. That sounds a bit like premature ejection.

In Generations, the opposing force was a 20 year old BoP (I think Riker even made a comment to that effect). A ship whose weapons should have had minimal effect against E-D's hull. Losing in the face of superior forces is not anything to be overly conserned about. Likely his command would be returned after a board of inquiry. But after a second incident where the captain wasn't even present? This raises serious questions about his command ability and judgement.

Anyone have any other examples of less than stellar judgement from Picard?[/i]

1) Tasha (?) noted heavy fire damage throughout the ship; it's possible that life-support and fire suppression systems had been damaged, and they were afraid the fires would consume all the O2 on the ship before they could get it under control. Shaky rationalization, but it's the best there is IMO.

2) "Minimal effect against the hull"? That's making the huge assumption that Federation materials science has advanced so much that ships from a mere 20 years prior would be totally ineffective against starships built only 13 years afterwards (since the E-D was seven years old at Generations). That's a pretty big leap in technology, one that obviously hadn't been made.

Also, the Enterprise couldn't locate Soran on the planet below, and were facing the (hideously unrealistic and godawfully contrived) possibility that they might not be able to shoot down the missile. The Duras sisters offered a way of getting someone, anyone to Soran's location. Think of how it might have been otherwise:

Admiral: "Captain, according to your report, you considered the possibility of bargaining with the Duras sisters in order to gain access to Soran's site before he launched the missile, correct?"
Picard: "Yes, I saw an opportunity to exploit their greed by offering myself in trade for Mr. La Forge, on the condition that I see Soran on the planet first. However, I felt that without any possibility of support from the Enterprise, my efforts would have been wasted."
Admiral: "But you could have attempted negotiations? You did have the opportunity to attempt to dissuade Soran from his horrific plan?"
Picard: "Yes."
Admiral: "And had that attempt succeeded, you might have persuaded him to abort his attempt, thus saving millions of innocent lives? Thus enforcing the Prime Directive within Federation territory? Thus enabling the safe return of a valued officer?"

He had to at least try; he had no idea the Duras sisters would manage to render his shields useless, and that Riker would be too stupid to not say "Commence rapid fire with all weapons on full", as he did in "The Survivors".

How about every single time he takes the ship into a combat zone or engages in other hazardous activity without evacuating the numerous civilians (including children) on board?

Heh, yeah, send the Enterprise back to a starbase to unload, and then run back to a situation which has probably erupted suddenly, without warning, and being of a time-critical nature.

Because that's how it has to be. If you just saucer-sep out in the middle of nowhere and leave the saucer unguarded, it's easy pickings for any hostile ship. In that event, it's pretty grim. At best, the saucer has to be detonated, with the crew and civvies just barely escaping with the escape pods. At worst, they kill everyone while keeping all those Federation technological tricks, like the computer cores (wouldn't the Romulans love to get their hands on that!) or the phaser arrays or the sensors.

If you say "Well, just leave it somewhere safe", where is that out in deep space where the Galaxys are supposed to operate? Either another starship (which might be put to better use responding to whatever the Galaxy is responding to, rather than babysitting a saucer) or *surprise!* a starbase!

My guess is that the civilian complement has already signed their lives away, saying that they have no problem with being taken into combat zones or some such nonsense. Either way you look at it, it's Starfleet; Picard can't be expected to drop the Federation's interests every time it gets a little hot just because Starfleet saddled him with a boatload of children.

There have been times when he probably should have seperated; but as Alyeska said, the stardrive section alone isn't as powerful as the whole ship. Those two big saucer arrays are the most powerful phasers on the whole ship; the saucer has two computer cores (for a total of three) which lends redundancy in the event of computer damage. The saucer also has fusion reactors for additional power, as well as two impulse engines, lending greater redundancy. With the saucer attached, the battle bridge is actually protected by a few decks above it.

Overall, I'd say it's 95% Starfleet, 5% Picard.

Wasn't one of the original premises on TNG that captains are forbidden by regulation to go on away teams except under extraordinary circumstances(there's a specific episode, though I can't remember which)? What happened to that? It seems as though after a while there was an attempt to go back to TOS operating mode where the captain leads every away team.
So in Generations and Insurrection Picard willfully violates that regulation. In both instances his ship comes under fire during his absence and in one case is lost.

I don't think it's regulation (he's done it before; see "The Battle", "Too Short A Season" for a couple of season 1 examples) I think it's more a very strong preference on Starfleet's part that captains not go on away missions. It's also possible that there simply weren't that many captains that acted like Kirk and went on a lot of away missions.

The "premise" is probably a David Gerrold idea; he mentioned it in his book about his work on "The Trouble With Tribbles" that it was ridiculous for a starship commander to go on the away missions, much as it would be ridiculous for aircraft carrier commanders to go on sorties. Gerrold was also one of the original team of people who worked on putting TNG together initially.
When did TNG go to "TOS-mode"? Picard leads an overwhelming minority of away teams. In the movies? In Generations, he had little other choice, except to gamble on his ship being able to shoot down the missile. In Insurrection, it was a less valid reason, but it's still a minority of cases.

Picard also had little reason to expect the Enterprise to come under fire in Insurrection.

Fixed mistake. ~Crayz9000

[Vympel]

I'm sorry if this has already been posted, but we all know that Picard abandoned his former command, the unremarkable Constellation-class USS Stargazer- from the Season 1 episode 'The Battle'- Darth Wong's canon database entry:

the great Captain Picard abandoned his ship and left it drifting through space, still intact! This is absolutely incomprehensible. No competent military officer would ever leave his vessel adrift, disabled but intact. A competent military officer would scuttle his ship to keep its technology and weaponry from falling into the wrong hands.

However, in Measure of Man (Season 2) we learn that there was actually a court martial hearing- standard procedure whenever a ship is lost. However, it seems that Picard succeeded in his defense, despite him leaving the ship intact. How the HELL did he get off?

PS- the woman who prosecuted him calls Picard 'a pompous ass' and a 'damn sexy man'. Ugh.

[Vympel]

As an aside- since I'm watching Measure of a Man right now .... does anyone think that the guy who wants to dissasemble Data looks like a REALLY YOUNG version of Ricardo Montalban (Kahn from ST II)?!

[Lord Pounder]

I didn't get that, he left his ship intact? was it's self destruct broken or was it simply that he is, as i always thought, a yellow bastard

[Vympel]

I didn't get that, he left his ship intact? was it's self destruct broken or was it simply that he is, as i always thought, a yellow bastard

I don't know ... self-destruct seems contradictory. In one episode they do it from the bridge IIRC, in another they go down to engineering and have to use their hands for print authorization. If there are various ways to set it off, there should be no excuse.

[Jason von Evil]

Stargazer: The Ferengi ship was destroyed and it's possible that the SG suffered alot of damage from the explosion, he may have had to abandon ship due to life support failure or something. Plus, it was his first command, he may have thought it was a good idea.

E-D: He wasn't even ON the ship, so how can he be blamed for Rikers stupidity? He was on that planet trying to prevent a madman from destroying an entire star system with millions of people in it. Also, I always figured the Faragut might have destroyed the saucer section before leaving.

E-E: I think we should wait till the movie comes out before we pass judgement.

Anyways, Picard is far from a coward, sure, he prefers to solve things diplomatically, but when he resorts to fighting, he can more than hold his own. If he was a coward, then why does he always rush to fight the Borg, instead of turning tail and running?

[Ghost Rider]

With the Borg he has apparently an obsession that overrides everything.

As for him getting Court martialed...he'll have to wait for the rest who more than adequetly deserve it starting with one Katherine Janeway.

He's done some slightly dumb things...and defied some orders...but overall he's shown more compentecy vs say his First officer?

[Soontir C'boath]

If he was a coward, then why does he always rush to fight the Borg, instead of turning tail and running?

His Hatred of the Borg spurs the rush. Take the scene with that black woman*forgot name* in his ready room in ST:FC he EXPLODED about it.

Cyaround,
Jason

[Jason von Evil]

All the great captains have defied orders.

[Ghost Rider]

and they suffer consequences.

[Uraniun235]

With the Borg he has apparently an obsession that overrides everything.

He never showed such an obsession when he encountered the Borg in TNG, which is another reason I dislike First Contact.

He's dealt with his demons already.

[Typhonis 1]

*sih*Poltical correctness and bad writing have ruined Star trek I mean come on your tail is on the line ,you face a known hostile group are you going to let them have the chance to hit you a half dozen times?

[neoolong]

[quote="Aya"]E-D: He wasn't even ON the ship, so how can he be blamed for Rikers stupidity? He was on that planet trying to prevent a madman from destroying an entire star system with millions of people in it. Also, I always figured the Faragut might have destroyed the saucer section before leaving.quote]

Yeah, but who let the stupid guy take command of the ship? Picard.

[TheDarkling]

neoolong: SF allowed Riker to be a 1st officier, if he wasn't upto the job thats not Picards fault (SF thought Riker was ready for his own command remember).

As for Picard being yellow I dont think thats how I would describe him.

[MirrorUniverseSpy1]

Stargazer: I really don't recall much about that, so I have no comment.

E-D: I agree with Picard leaving the ship to handle Soran. He at least
had to try to stop a whole system from being wiped out, and he could
not have known that the Klingons would find a way past the shields.

[Typhonis 1]

Briar paatch incident He delierately disobeyed orders from an Admiral and risked his ship for 600 natives .

[Jason von Evil]

E-D: He wasn't even ON the ship, so how can he be blamed for Rikers stupidity? He was on that planet trying to prevent a madman from destroying an entire star system with millions of people in it. Also, I always figured the Faragut might have destroyed the saucer section before leaving.quote]

Yeah, but who let the stupid guy take command of the ship? Picard.

Who would you have wanted to take command? Data, who was still trying to gain control over that emotion chip of his? Besides, it's the chain of command.

[neoolong]

neoolong: SF allowed Riker to be a 1st officier, if he wasn't upto the job thats not Picards fault (SF thought Riker was ready for his own command remember).

As for Picard being yellow I dont think thats how I would describe him.

I never said he was a coward. I said that ultimately he put someone in command that screwed up. He has to take responsibility for that.

[TheDarkling]

neoolong: The coward comment wasn't directed at you just the people who had said as much in this thread.