In Defense of High School Sports

theski · Post by **theski** » 2006-02-09 02:23pm

SancheztheWhaler wrote:
Cairber wrote:
CarsonPalmer wrote:But intramurals aren't as good a uniter of the school as interscholastic, especially if they are student organized. Interscholastic sports break cliques. In a good program, you aren't such and such, the football star, you are a football player, equal to the benchwarming backup kicker. That's the way it is in good programs, at least.
I found that playing other schools made for a lot of nastiness (egging each other's schools, making up lude names for their teams). Maybe because I was at an all girl's school, but I never found it to break cliques; in fact, the sports teams usually hung out with eachother and formed a kind of clique.
This would be (and is) true even without sports. Rich/poor, cool/lame, druggies/non-druggies, white/black, punk/goth, etc. Humans naturally gravitate toward tribalism - it'll happen no matter what.

Which is hightened during HS because of a lack of self Identity and maturity.

CarsonPalmer · Post by **CarsonPalmer** » 2006-02-09 02:41pm

But there are programs where things do work that way. The Texas image of football does not apply to all that many programs. New Jersey football in general seems well-run, and close to the ideal program.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2006-02-09 02:55pm

CarsonPalmer wrote:But there are programs where things do work that way. The Texas image of football does not apply to all that many programs. New Jersey football in general seems well-run, and close to the ideal program.

First, please learn to use the quote function, otherwise people can't follow who you're responding to.

Second, you still don't get it. I feel like I'm arguing over the theory of Communism here. The point is that it doesn't work in many areas, despite that it happens to work in a few.

Jew · Post by **Jew** » 2006-02-09 03:17pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
CarsonPalmer wrote:But there are programs where things do work that way. The Texas image of football does not apply to all that many programs. New Jersey football in general seems well-run, and close to the ideal program.
First, please learn to use the quote function, otherwise people can't follow who you're responding to.

It usually is pretty easy to figure out what a post is in reference to. A good rule is to quote only when it isn't immediately obvious (to someone reading the thread) who or what you are responding to. Excessive and unnecessary quoting is a sign of inexperience with online forums. It's a newbie mistake to quote too much just like it's a newbie mistake to quote too little.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2006-02-09 03:31pm

Anybody gonna show up with those fiqures on how expensive it is to have sports teams.. Compared to how much money they generate???

CarsonPalmer · Post by **CarsonPalmer** » 2006-02-09 03:31pm

Spanky, my point is that it does work in many areas. As far as I can tell, the majority of New Jersey schools work that way. It isn't like it is impractical for a sports program to be run well, all it needs is a coach who knows what the goal of the program should be. He can set the correct tone for the program, and that gets the ball rolling. When all you need is a coach whose head is screwed on right, it isn't that hard to create a good program.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2006-02-09 05:05pm

High school sports teams teaching healthy lifestyle skills is about the biggest load of shit I've ever seen. A couple years after high school's done and most of the team members will be unhealthy overweight slobs. They teach you how to play the sport, but they teach jack & shit on keeping yourself in shape after you're done. If I had a dollar for every ex-high school jock who can no longer run 50 yards without passing out I'd never have to work another day in my life. They're taught how to be "fit" to make the team, but once the team's done, so are they. They only know "fitness" in the context of playing a given sport. That's pretty much useless in the real world.

Fleet Admiral JD · Post by **Fleet Admiral JD** » 2006-02-09 05:22pm

I, like Durandel, work on the school plays. I'm the lighting guy, I do spotlight or lightboard for most functions at the school. Community events that are held in our auditorium, I get ten bucks an hour. Not bad for doing something you enjoy.

The teamwork that is necissary, between all of the different technical parts of the play, the "behind the scenes" stuff, is amazing. The stage crew needs to coordinate with the light guys needs to coordinate with the actors. That's true teamwork.

I'm on our Mock Trial team. What a learning experience! We go to real courtrooms, have real judges, and we do a damned good job out there. Our coach is the head of the Social Studies department, and he's the only one. Other schools have lawyers come in, as well as teachers.

I'm a member of the 65-strong marching band. Another point where teamwork is crucial, in both drill and music.

The sad thing is, our marching band uniforms are ten years old. They're threadbare, ripping, and aging.

Contrarily, the football team gets new uniforms every fucking year, yet our record over the past umpteen years has far surpassed theirs. Two years ago we were the top band in New England. This year we are a gold medal rated band, and first in almost every competition.

The football team gets a coach (the AD, who teaches 1 PE class and spends the rest of the day jerking off in his office), as well as a large number of assistants. Our music department consists of the band director. He has people who help him, but they are paid little, if at all, and work for the sheer pleasure of helping the band.

Shoudn't the schol treat everything equally?

I digress.

I believe that school activities help you, if you take advantage of them. If you don't even bother, of course you aren't going to benifit from them. But when you get into something, or many things, these activities really do instill a sense of pride in the people who use them. When I scream "with pride!" at the end of the marching band performance, when I make the stage look great with lights, when I cross-examine a "witness" on the stand and absolutley destroy them, it's a feeling that can't be replicated.

Sorry about the slightly confusing post, I'm tired.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2006-02-09 05:53pm

Fleet Admiral JD wrote:Shoudn't the schol treat everything equally?

I digress.

I believe that school activities help you, if you take advantage of them. If you don't even bother, of course you aren't going to benifit from them. But when you get into something, or many things, these activities really do instill a sense of pride in the people who use them. When I scream "with pride!" at the end of the marching band performance, when I make the stage look great with lights, when I cross-examine a "witness" on the stand and absolutley destroy them, it's a feeling that can't be replicated.

Sorry about the slightly confusing post, I'm tired.

Great points... and made without sounding like a whiny nerd who hates and envies the "dumb jocks." You're absolutely right - it's not fair that the band has to wear 10-year old uniforms while the football team gets new ones. Unfortunately, that's reality in most areas - sports is king, and football is the emperor.

The only thing I can really add to this is that you get out of school, sports, band, drama, etc., what you put into it. The same goes for life itself. Anybody who half-asses their way through school isn't going to learn much, while anybody who half-asses their way onto a football team is going to spend a lot of time standing on the sideline bitching about not getting to play.

I played four years of football and soccer because they were fun. I wasn't looking to learn teamwork or life skills out of it - those are silly reasons - but I did make some good friends, have a good time doing it, and won a district championship in the meantime. They were good times, and I feel sorry for those of you who didn't participate in these sorts of activities (sports, band, drama, debate, etc.) and have such a chip on your shoulders as a result.

Post by **Coyote** » 2006-02-09 06:44pm

Wow. This sure took off...

In regards to theski's comment, I am indeed talking about the organized school sports events that take place above and beyond regular PE courses. PE courses are a necessary evil because for some kids that truly is the only time they'll ever be made to get away from a TV set or PS2; and as DW said, a good teaching program can use PE to teach kids about general health and fitness.

But the organized sports focus interfered with the PE programs I got as a kid. The PE courses I took in Junior High (now more commonly referred to as 'Middle School') and High School were-- unfortunately-- just extensions of organized sports and recess. There was very little "education" going on, like "This is how to use a weight set; this is safe, this is unsafe, this is how to avoid injury..." It was mostly just "We're gonna play football... what? You don't wanna play football? What's wrong with you?"

If the trainers/coaches had taken the attitude of teaching what was going on and the hows and whys of fitness management, I'd feel like I got a lot more out of it. PE was there as a daily support supplement for the kids that were involved in after-school sports, and the non-sports participants were really treated as just people that had to be kept busy.

So I feel that there is also an attitude angle to this as well as a financial angle. A well-run PE program is a good idea and I love the concept, so I think that brushing off this whole thing as "just a nerds-vs-jocks" argument is unfair. The organized sports part of the educational institution becomes the focus of effort, instead of a supporting pillar.

Jalinth · Post by **Jalinth** » 2006-02-09 06:55pm

theski wrote:Anybody gonna show up with those fiqures on how expensive it is to have sports teams.. Compared to how much money they generate???

It is difficult to really track the true costs and revenue of a team. How much overhead do they consume (land, lighting, extra administration) and how much of the revenue generated would go to other school activities. Like fundraising - would people donate $10,000 for other school activites (band, debate club) or would the local town only donate a part (would half of the sports donations go elsewhere).

In terms of high school sports, the problem is that they are disfunctional in a number of places. I was lucky enough to be in a school that had a good balance - very good music, good sports, and a reasonable drama program (definitely not as prominent as the first two) coupled with good academics. Sports fed the school community, but so did the other outside activities. We didn't have everything "crowded out" for one thing. As long as the school keeps everything in balance, school life will be good. Those who don't like sports can do dance, drama, whatever. More people are content.

But a school defined by football and cheerleaders (or just the music, or just the drama, or just anything) is an unhappy experience for people who don't like football (or music, ...). These teenagers get exiled to the fringes where in a more balanced school, they might well find an activity they like without being shunned. Where that activity gets attention and support from teachers, just like the "big" activities.

Fleet Admiral JD · Post by **Fleet Admiral JD** » 2006-02-09 08:06pm

SancheztheWhaler wrote:\

Great points... and made without sounding like a whiny nerd who hates and envies the "dumb jocks." You're absolutely right - it's not fair that the band has to wear 10-year old uniforms while the football team gets new ones. Unfortunately, that's reality in most areas - sports is king, and football is the emperor.

Damn, that's what I was going for!

And I completley agree with the sentiment of what you get out of it is what you put into it. The kids who most commonly drop out of the activities are the ones who don't like it, and were doing it for their "college resume" and really didn't put into it like those of us who truly love what we do.

My sentiment about the football games: They play the pregame and postgame. Gametime is halftime, baby.

CarsonPalmer · Post by **CarsonPalmer** » 2006-02-09 09:09pm

Aerius, as SancheztheWhaler said, what you put in is what you get out. Obviously, these people are not maintaining what they gained. Is that any different from a high school graduate allowing his brain to rot? Its sad that they got in shape, then quickly got out of it.

FleetAdmiralJD, the school should treat everyone equally, and it is not fair that the band is neglected like that. Oh, and the band is one of my favorite parts of the game. A high school football game without a band is like playing without fans there. Nothing sends chills down my spine like "Rock and Roll Pt. 2" as the game goes on

CarsonPalmer · Post by **CarsonPalmer** » 2006-02-09 09:10pm

Only my second thread, and 87 replies! I'm kinda surprised this topic generated so much interest.

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2006-02-09 10:37pm

theski wrote:Anybody gonna show up with those fiqures on how expensive it is to have sports teams.. Compared to how much money they generate???

It was anecdotal evidence, but I have my earlier post explaining out how the sports teams (football in particular) in my hometown has been doing everything in its power to suck millions of dollars out of the town's budget.

I don't know about other towns, but where I'm from high school sports are some of the nastiest parasites I can think of. Because I can guarantee you that the various teams there don't rake in millions of dollars.

The high school I went to seriously needs a new gym, but frankly the dipshits on the school committee (at least the ones who just happen to have a kid on the football/basketball/track team) will all but guarantee that it will not happen. They are so hell-bent on getting a stadium the school does not need that many of the residents would now only give so much as a penny to the school department if it were pried from their cold, dead fingers.

If high schools want sports teams, fine. Let the people involved pay for it, and use any revenue the school makes off of the games to help cover it. The disingenuous bullshit the supporters pull trying to suck money out of the town budget has only really succeeded in driving up property taxes as the town tries to recover from income lost that could be better spent elsewhere.

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2006-02-10 03:45am

CarsonPalmer wrote:Spanky, my point is that it does work in many areas. As far as I can tell, the majority of New Jersey schools work that way. It isn't like it is impractical for a sports program to be run well, all it needs is a coach who knows what the goal of the program should be. He can set the correct tone for the program, and that gets the ball rolling. When all you need is a coach whose head is screwed on right, it isn't that hard to create a good program.

Are you familiar with the 'No True Scotsman' Fallacy? In just about every post you've made you've countered any deficiencies by stating how it would be 'done well' and in 'a good program'. No matter what evidence was brought against your side, you could always respond 'this is how it should be in a good program'.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2006-02-10 06:43am

aerius wrote:High school sports teams teaching healthy lifestyle skills is about the biggest load of shit I've ever seen. A couple years after high school's done and most of the team members will be unhealthy overweight slobs. They teach you how to play the sport, but they teach jack & shit on keeping yourself in shape after you're done. If I had a dollar for every ex-high school jock who can no longer run 50 yards without passing out I'd never have to work another day in my life. They're taught how to be "fit" to make the team, but once the team's done, so are they. They only know "fitness" in the context of playing a given sport. That's pretty much useless in the real world.

That has nothing to do with "Team sports" its up to the individual to keep in shape...

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-02-10 07:59am

And you don't think an individual would be better equipped to stay fit through required solitary activities?

theski · Post by **theski** » 2006-02-10 08:12am

wolveraptor wrote:And you don't think an individual would be better equipped to stay fit through required solitary activities?

If you want to be good at a team sport you need to be in shape.. its the same thing as solitary activities.. Its all about what you put into it

CarsonPalmer · Post by **CarsonPalmer** » 2006-02-10 08:20am

Winston Blake, I am aware of the no True Scotsman fallacy, but there are programs that are run well, and they are not all that uncommon. Using schools where sports crowd everything out like in Texas to say that sports should be eliminated is like using Iraq as an example to say secular government should be ended.

Jew · Post by **Jew** » 2006-02-10 10:21am

CarsonPalmer wrote:Winston Blake, I am aware of the no True Scotsman fallacy, but there are programs that are run well, and they are not all that uncommon. Using schools where sports crowd everything out like in Texas to say that sports should be eliminated is like using Iraq as an example to say secular government should be ended.

I agree with CarsonPalmer. The existence of well-run high school athletics departments puts an end to the idea that sports in high schools is prima facie a bad thing. Each high school athletics department must be judged on its own merits.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2006-02-10 10:45am

SancheztheWhaler wrote:Great points... and made without sounding like a whiny nerd who hates and envies the "dumb jocks." You're absolutely right - it's not fair that the band has to wear 10-year old uniforms while the football team gets new ones. Unfortunately, that's reality in most areas - sports is king, and football is the emperor.

But what happens when it's at the cost of actual education? My high schools football team get all sorts of new gear constantly. Meanwhile, I had an "Earth and Space" textbook that talked about the wonders of the upcoming Viking II mission (I wish I was exaggerating). The gym got refurbished and expanded when I was in my junior year when they are packing 30 kids into a single class in a room where there are twenty five desks (and little room to put more from other rooms). Not to mention the hole in the floor of the third floor bathroom, which they decided was better to just lock that bathroom than fix because they didn't have the budget. Now they are shutting down the place because, gee whiz, the school district has severe financial troubles and can't support it.

I suppose the sports program makes up for all of that, hm?

theski · Post by **theski** » 2006-02-10 10:57am

Ok.. Gil/Mike and the rest of the its "Sports are to expensive for the school budgets"..

read this.. a ton of the cost are shoulderd by the students and their parents..

The cost of high school sports
What it costs to get in the game From equipment to uniforms, being an athlete can add up

By Lydia Seabol
Staff Writer

There is a certain satisfaction that comes from making the basketball or track team or becoming head cheerleader. It’s like making the winning touchdown in the last seconds of a game.

It’s a sense of importance, of doing something that’s worthwhile.

And it is.

But one aspect of high school sports that most teens, and even their parents, don’t often realize is what you have to pay to play. According to many school officials, it’s not cheap.

At Central High School, cheerleaders can expect to pay or raise more than $800 each in order to participate every year. At Hillcrest Middle school, it costs $300 a player to play baseball and $275 for tennis. And, at Northridge High School, a softball player needs to raise $250 in order to don the team’s uniform.
Fees vary by sport and by school. At the beginning of each year in the Tuscaloosa City Schools, the coaches for various sports get together to make their budget, figure out how much the cost is per player and come up with fundraising ideas, said David Akins, athletic director at Northridge. Students may have to pay a $25 fee to play, but can then participate in concession stand sales or Boston butt sales to help raise the rest of the money.

The case is similar in Tuscaloosa County schools, where students pay a $25 fee per sport and then participate in fundraisers.
In both school systems, the uniforms are provided, but that doesn’t mean that the pompoms, the shoes, socks or warm-up jerseys are. For the most part, those items come out of parents’ pockets.

Lauren Roland, a 16-year-old cheerleader at Bryant High School, has worked for Pepsi wagons, served food in restaurants, bagged groceries and sold candy and Boston Butts to raise enough money to pay to cheer. Cheerleading is expensive to participate in, she said. Besides having to buy body suits, socks, shoes, practice shorts, pompoms, bags and ribbons, the cheerleaders also have to pay $300 for a three-day summer camp and $700 if the squad goes to nationals, she said.
“We have a lot of things we have to buy," Roland said. “It would be nice if they would pay for some things but that’s part of it every year, and it’s a problem every year. There are always people who have problems making their payment."

Eighteen-year-old Andre Bush, who plays soccer and football at Bryant, agreed that the money could be a problem for some students.

“It’s a lot of money for teens, but we usually try to do enough fundraising where everybody can afford it," Bush said. “I think the schools should provide the money for it, but the Tuscaloosa City Schools have enough money problems, I guess, dealing with the high schools."

Drew Stricklin, 18, plays soccer, football, cross country and outdoor track at Northridge. He said that all the fees do add up, but the students probably don’t think as much about it as the parents do.

“Probably the parents are more mindful of it, since they are the ones who have to pay," Stricklin said.

Parents do complain about the costs involved with sports, Akins said, and they usually want to know where the money goes, he said.

“They use the word 'public education’ and say that everything should be provided for the athletes," Akin said. “Public education is a right but being able to participate in athletics is a privilege."

Northridge soccer player Parisa Pedram, 16, agreed.

“It’s kind of like a privilege to play a sport and be on a team," she said. “It’s not like anything else at school. It’s an honor to participate."

The reason participating in sports at the public schools is so expensive is because the boards of education do not pay for the upkeep of athletic facilities, athletic equipment, referees or the buses needed for away games.
“We do not receive any funds from the boards for our athletic venues and have to fund athletics on our own, through fundraising or gate receipts," Akin said. “Anything that we spend, say, if we put sand on our field, the football program has to pay for that, and each coach is responsible for cutting the grass on their own fields."

While fundraising by the students is a large help, it doesn’t pay for everything. Booster clubs, which are groups of player’s parents or fans, help pay for what the students and the teams can’t cover.

“Without our booster club parents we couldn’t survive," Akin said.

Anthony Harris, athletic director at Central High School agreed.

“The booster club and coaches help out with the fundraisers, and have had carwashes, secured parking lots during the Alabama football games, sold T-shirts, had raffles ... you name it."

Anita Smart’s son Jonathan plays baseball at Bryant and she has helped raise money for the team through baseball’s booster club in the past.

“Coaches try to keep costs down low because there are people who have more than one child on the team and it can get expensive," Smart said. “What money we can raise for booster club goes to buses for travel or for umpires and supplies."

Jason Turner is the dad of Mason Turner, who plays football, baseball and golf at Davis Emerson Middle School. He said that the school is still trying to form a booster club for its sports, but that the students pay fees along with their fundraising. But, he said that the cost is just something he has to pay for his son to play.

COST

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2006-02-10 11:11am

theski wrote:Ok.. Gil/Mike and the rest of the its "Sports are to expensive for the school budgets"..

read this.. a ton of the cost are shoulderd by the students and their parents..
<snipped for space>

Be that as it may, I know at my school that we had crumbling out of date textbooks, overpacked classrooms, and shitty labs while the football team, the cheersquad and especially the Pittsburgh Ballet Theatre girls were getting special perks paid for by the school. That expansion on the gym wasn't raised by bake sales, you know. Only the advanced AP kids really got better stuff, academically, mostly because we used college textbooks which had to be bought new.

Which do you think should be more important? Updated textbooks that actually have non-fallen off covers or new uniforms for the football team?

theski · Post by **theski** » 2006-02-10 11:15am

Gil Hamilton wrote:
theski wrote:Ok.. Gil/Mike and the rest of the its "Sports are to expensive for the school budgets"..

read this.. a ton of the cost are shoulderd by the students and their parents..
<snipped for space>
Be that as it may, I know at my school that we had crumbling out of date textbooks, overpacked classrooms, and shitty labs while the football team, the cheersquad and especially the Pittsburgh Ballet Theatre girls were getting special perks paid for by the school. That expansion on the gym wasn't raised by bake sales, you know. Only the advanced AP kids really got better stuff, academically, mostly because we used college textbooks which had to be bought new.

Which do you think should be more important? Updated textbooks that actually have non-fallen off covers or new uniforms for the football team?

Hey.. I agree, that is BS if its that bad at your school then that takes priority.. Sounds like you have a shitty school board as well..

my point has always been its a balance between sports and education that makes a school a good place to go to..