What was the greatest waste in all of Star Trek?

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-02-08 09:17pm

Alyeska wrote:Well for those of us who never saw B5, DS9 wasn't a copy of B5 and was quoite enjoyable in that sense.

Have you seen B5 since then?

As for the baseball episode- how the hell can anyone call it awesome? It's a total waste of time from start to finish, it's a stupid premise, a stupid ending, and a stupid episode.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-02-08 10:50pm

Vympel wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Well for those of us who never saw B5, DS9 wasn't a copy of B5 and was quoite enjoyable in that sense.
Have you seen B5 since then?

As for the baseball episode- how the hell can anyone call it awesome? It's a total waste of time from start to finish, it's a stupid premise, a stupid ending, and a stupid episode.

The Vulcan crew, right? The very notion of an all Vulcan crew is pretty much anti Trek, is it not?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-02-09 12:15am

Vympel wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Well for those of us who never saw B5, DS9 wasn't a copy of B5 and was quoite enjoyable in that sense.
Have you seen B5 since then?

Nope. By the time I heard how good B5 was, no stations I had access to aired it. Besides, if I saw B5 I am liable to call it a pitiful copy of DS9. Turnabout is fair play.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-02-09 12:22am

Alyeska wrote:
Nope. By the time I heard how good B5 was, no stations I had access to aired it. Besides, if I saw B5 I am liable to call it a pitiful copy of DS9. Turnabout is fair play.

I highly doubt that. Even at it's best, objectively speaking, DS9 was unfocused and it's continuity was timid. It was the most different thing Trek had ever done, but by the standards of B5, it's quite limp.

The prices for DVD boxsets of Trek seasons went through the floor here over Christmas- DS9 would originally set me back $229AUD per season. Then it came down to $129, then it went down to around 80. When I went to the store to look for Seasons 5, 6 and 7 of DS9, all I found were Seasons 1-4. That's very telling. Everyone had the same thought as me. I went home empty handed.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2006-02-09 12:25am

Knife wrote:The Vulcan crew, right? The very notion of an all Vulcan crew is pretty much anti Trek, is it not?

I dunno, there was that ship that was destroyed once in TOS that was described as having an all-Vulcan crew.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2006-02-09 04:35am

Knife wrote:
Vympel wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Well for those of us who never saw B5, DS9 wasn't a copy of B5 and was quoite enjoyable in that sense.
Have you seen B5 since then?

As for the baseball episode- how the hell can anyone call it awesome? It's a total waste of time from start to finish, it's a stupid premise, a stupid ending, and a stupid episode.
The Vulcan crew, right? The very notion of an all Vulcan crew is pretty much anti Trek, is it not?

Not really. Different species like different environments, so it makes sense to modify a few ships for specific crews.

As for TMOTTH, the premise was silly but I wouldn't call it stupid. The ending was fairly surprising, the acting was good, and even the humour worked, even if it was cheesy.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-02-09 08:10am

Well for those of us who never saw B5, DS9 wasn't a copy of B5

How does that work, exactly?

I certainly enjoyed DS9 more (though I still quit watching before the end) before I got into Babylon 5, which not only came first (JMS presented his original outline to Paramount years before, many features of which mysteriously wound up in Deep Space Nine) but is better in nearly every way.

Ignorance may be bliss, but why would you avoid watching an excellent show because you're afraid it will affect your vision of the show that ripped it off?

In summary:

I recommend the B5 DVD sets, which can be easily rented or purchased rather more cheaply thn the DS9 sets, and,

While you're certainly free to CALL B5 a copy of DS9, that would make you wrong, because B5, in fact, came first. It just took longer to produce.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2006-02-09 08:19am

the show that ripped it off?

They both have a space station, a commander who lost his wife, a war - anything else ?

I've seen DS9 and large chunks of B5. The only way you can believe either on "ripped off" the other is if you toss in general sci-fi concepts both use (alien religion, "jump gates"/wormhole) and go for absolute contrivance ("they both have a hard-boiled female lead !")

xerex · Post by **xerex** » 2006-02-09 10:42am

Bounty wrote:
the show that ripped it off?
They both have a space station, a commander who lost his wife, a war - anything else ?

I've seen DS9 and large chunks of B5. The only way you can believe either on "ripped off" the other is if you toss in general sci-fi concepts both use (alien religion, "jump gates"/wormhole) and go for absolute contrivance ("they both have a hard-boiled female lead !")

Well Sinclair becomes Minbari religious leader Valen

Deosnt Sisko become a prophet too ?

and they both have aliens named Dukat/Dukhat. One being the Cardassian, the other being the Minbari leader whose death starts the war.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2006-02-09 11:50am

I have to agree about Take Me Out to the Holosuite being a big fat waste of an episode at a time when such waste was especially noticable (final season). They could have slipped that sort of thing into season 1 or 2, but there is no reason to have it in season 7. It makes the Vulcans look like petty, bigoted assholes for the sake of a crappy, cliched story. They could have done something that developed the continuing storyline of the war, but they gave us this. At least It's Only a Paper Moon had to do with Rom dealing with his wounds.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-02-09 01:32pm

Anguirus wrote:
Well for those of us who never saw B5, DS9 wasn't a copy of B5
How does that work, exactly?

I certainly enjoyed DS9 more (though I still quit watching before the end) before I got into Babylon 5, which not only came first (JMS presented his original outline to Paramount years before, many features of which mysteriously wound up in Deep Space Nine) but is better in nearly every way.

Ignorance may be bliss, but why would you avoid watching an excellent show because you're afraid it will affect your vision of the show that ripped it off?

In summary:

I recommend the B5 DVD sets, which can be easily rented or purchased rather more cheaply thn the DS9 sets, and,

While you're certainly free to CALL B5 a copy of DS9, that would make you wrong, because B5, in fact, came first. It just took longer to produce.

Did you even read what I posted? By the time I knew about B5, I couldn't watch is because none of the local stations aired it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-02-09 01:44pm

Alyeska wrote:Did you even read what I posted? By the time I knew about B5, I couldn't watch is because none of the local stations aired it.

Yeah, but then you had to go and make that incredibly retarded comment about how you had just as much right to call B5 a rip-off of DS9 as B5 fans had to say the opposite.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-02-09 01:57pm

From my perspective it would appear as such. Whatever you see first colors what you see next.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-02-09 02:07pm

Alyeska wrote:From my perspective it would appear as such. Whatever you see first colors what you see next.

You do realize that there is an objective reality outside your head which allows us to make absolute judgments on this sort of thing, right? Thus rendering your "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" bullshit totally false?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-02-09 03:06pm

I saw DS9 first and still thought B5 was vastly superior.

Further, how can anyone whose not seen the series be sure it is or isn't something? That's just ridiculous.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-02-09 03:13pm

Alyeska wrote:Well for those of us who never saw B5, DS9 wasn't a copy of B5 and was quoite enjoyable in that sense.

Oh, yeah. DS9 wasn't a copy...

It dropped B5's continuity, good story arcs, and interesting setting.

Seriously. DS9 came out a year after B5, some time after after JMS tried to sell his 'gritty space station drama' to Paramount. Maybe you need to actually get familiar with subjects before you comment on them.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-02-09 03:23pm

The very first DS9 episode aired on January 3rd 1993. B5s pilot aired on Febuary 22nd 1993. B5 didn't actualy air as a series until January 26th 1994.

So before B5 was even a series, DS9 already had a full season ahead.

DS9 was first, B5 was second.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-02-09 06:03pm

Alyeska wrote:The very first DS9 episode aired on January 3rd 1993. B5s pilot aired on Febuary 22nd 1993. B5 didn't actualy air as a series until January 26th 1994.

So before B5 was even a series, DS9 already had a full season ahead.

DS9 was first, B5 was second.

That doesn't change who the original idea belonged too. That Paramount could get a new Trek series online faster than JMS could start an all new franchise isn't exactly surprising.

Good Wiki summarizing the similarities between the two franchises:

Link

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-02-09 06:19pm

And from what I remember reading, the creators of DS9 had been toying with the idea since before they heard JMS's pitch. Whats more is DS9 is set in an established universe using politics already established before B5 was ever pitched.

There are obvious similarities, but from everything I've read on the subject, DS9 and B5 are clearly different series.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-02-09 06:21pm

Whats funny from reading some of the similarties, B5 actualy copied things from DS9.

Both series added a "tough little ship" in their 3rd seasons. Except DS9s 3rd season was a year before B5s.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-02-09 06:55pm

Alyeska wrote:Whats funny from reading some of the similarties, B5 actualy copied things from DS9.

Both series added a "tough little ship" in their 3rd seasons. Except DS9s 3rd season was a year before B5s.

Except you know, 80 percent of B5's plotline being written before the show went into production. Half the similarities I can chalk up to coincidence. Another half however... like you know. Actual plots... *whistle*

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2006-02-09 11:12pm

Alyeska wrote:Whats funny from reading some of the similarties, B5 actualy copied things from DS9.

Both series added a "tough little ship" in their 3rd seasons. Except DS9s 3rd season was a year before B5s.

Babylon 5's third season would have been being written and in production while DS9's aired. Thinking JMS stuffed in the idea of a tough little ship just because he might have watched the DS9 season premier is absurd, given the fact that his writers' bible was written by 1989 and much of B5 hinged on the White Star and the fleet of ships like it.

The same bible that Paramount had their hands on as they directed what DS9 should be.

AK_Jedi · Post by **AK_Jedi** » 2006-02-09 11:39pm

IMO, just because something is a copy, doesn't automatically make it bad, it just means that the writers/producers are unoriginal, borderline plaguerizing pricks.

DS9 was a copy of a very good program, which automatically makes it at least a decent progam.

Personally, I think that B5 was a far better show overall, for many of the reasons already mentioned.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-02-10 01:26am

Alyeska wrote:Whats funny from reading some of the similarties, B5 actualy copied things from DS9.

Both series added a "tough little ship" in their 3rd seasons. Except DS9s 3rd season was a year before B5s.

Shh.. quiet.. the Rabid Fivers will hear you

I have to admit I lost interest in early DS9, but once the Dominion War rolled around, I started watching it again on a semi-regular basis. Of course, Voyager killed that...

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-02-10 01:28am

The Klingon War brought me back into DS9. The Defiant didn't originaly do much for me. The stories were still largely non-building. The continuity really began in the 4th season.