Psionics and other varient magics in D&D.

[lance]

Nothing prevents a demilich from having levels of archmage. I merely requires 21 levels or wizard, cleric, or sorcerer. Damn you are dense. Or dishonest.

Oh, I thought you ment taking them preepic. I was trying to keep things as low as possible.

I should remind you that a player can become a 21wiz/2archmage, become a lich, then a demilich, and then spend 12 levels worth of earning the next character level. That's what's likely to happen in a real group and a serious problem for the DM with a bunch of 23rd level adventurers and a 23rd level demilich.

If a DM allows this he is an idiot. I am assuming that the demilich is with a balanced party of equal ECL. If it got applied like you mentioned it would indeed be broken. Most likely as broken as a 35th level wizard hanging with the party.

The whole point of the monster list, which you are dodging like a maniac, was to list creatures an actual epic level party might encounter in which the difference in spell penetration, which you are fucking harping on, is a minor consideration. The actual CRs of the critters runs the gamut, because some of critters were encountered when the characters' level in the low 20s, some higher.

I figured that, but I didn't think they had much relevance when the character in question was 33 ECL. As you go up in levels SR becomes more and more relevant.

Thanks for the half concession on AC. Now lets finish it. Lots of those creatures have multiple itterative attacks. Being able to hit easily with the first doesn't mean the fourth will hit. Not to mention not having to worry about sneak attacks, vorpal crits, energy drain, or stat damage that a lot of those creatures pack. Most of the party, and any caster not currently shape changed into an appropriately invulnerable form. And on that, for the record, do you think a character will be shape changed into an iron golem while shopping?

Only the Leshay and gloom have a real differance in the attacks. They also are quite a few CRs lower than the lich. The other things that have iterative attacks can still hit the lich on a 2 with the final attack. Yes I am going to be buying things in flesh golem form. Throw on a hat of disquise and wallah. Unless I was a sorceror, they are not as intellegent, or paranoid.

You're assumption that you will always have the right spells prepared for the given situation, spells that only showed up in your latter posts as the choices in your early on were not so effective as well as the laughable assumption that the combat will always be on your terms, not an ambush or surprise attack by your enemies, is completely removed the experience of any game I have played or run.

I think I only added Disjuction on my later posts. I had shapechange and moment of precience on all day. I assumed all day buffs could be up all day. I don't think any character can survive a sneak attack at this level. I also feel that if a wizard can roughly keep up with the demilich then it isn't broken.

I have a question what would be needed to be dropped from the demilichs abilities for you to think it would be balanced?

[Imperial Overlord]

If a DM allows this he is an idiot. I am assuming that the ote]demilich is with a balanced party of equal ECL. If it got applied like you mentioned it would indeed be broken. Most likely as broken as a 35th level wizard hanging with the party.

This is the most likely way a demilich will enter a game. Almost no one starts with an epic character, they play an established character into the epic levels. And that's how the template works. Despite the CO boards, characters develop over time and play and not over carefully planned out 30 level feat and prestige class buy.

I figured that, but I didn't think they had much relevance when the character in question was 33 ECL. As you go up in levels SR becomes more and more relevant.

More levels to accumulate feats, more prestige class, more items, and more spells to add to spell penetration abilities.

. Yes I am going to be buying things in flesh golem form. Throw on a hat of disquise and wallah. Unless I was a sorceror, they are not as intellegent, or paranoid.

So your alleged character conducts his entire life under a seige mentality, always ready for attack at any moment? Wow. You are so full of it.

I have a question what would be needed to be dropped from the demilichs abilities for you to think it would be balanced?

No character should have blanket immunity to most spells, let alone be immune and be able to cast. Also, being immune to sneak attacks and critical hits is extremely potent, essentially nerfing rogues, lots of monsters, and all fighter types. Protection and resistance is one thing, immunity is another. This really should be evident to you and it is telling that it isn't. That's why Shape Change is broken, but you refuse to admit it and have your theoretical character walk around with it constantly on, but won't even mention any other 9th level spells for your character's use, despite being of theoretically equal power.

[lance]

If a DM allows this he is an idiot. I am assuming that the ote]demilich is with a balanced party of equal ECL. If it got applied like you mentioned it would indeed be broken. Most likely as broken as a 35th level wizard hanging with the party.

This is the most likely way a demilich will enter a game. Almost no one starts with an epic character, they play an established character into the epic levels. And that's how the template works. Despite the CO boards, characters develop over time and play and not over carefully planned out 30 level feat and prestige class buy.

If I were the DM I would use savage species rules and make them buy the template off.

I figured that, but I didn't think they had much relevance when the character in question was 33 ECL. As you go up in levels SR becomes more and more relevant.

More levels to accumulate feats, more prestige class, more items, and more spells to add to spell penetration abilities.

. Yes I am going to be buying things in flesh golem form. Throw on a hat of disquise and wallah. Unless I was a sorceror, they are not as intellegent, or paranoid.

So your alleged character conducts his entire life under a seige mentality, always ready for attack at any moment? Wow. You are so full of it.

A wizard at this level has an intellegence in the mid 30s. If he can due it he might as well.

I have a question what would be needed to be dropped from the demilichs abilities for you to think it would be balanced?

No character should have blanket immunity to most spells, let alone be immune and be able to cast. Also, being immune to sneak attacks and critical hits is extremely potent, essentially nerfing rogues, lots of monsters, and all fighter types. Protection and resistance is one thing, immunity is another. This really should be evident to you and it is telling that it isn't.

I think that reduction in offense, due to caster level loss and inability to use many magic items offsets this.

That's why Shape Change is broken, but you refuse to admit it and have your theoretical character walk around with it constantly on, but won't even mention any other 9th level spells for your character's use, despite being of theoretically equal power.

In my oppinion Shapechange at best has a too long of duration. I have mentioned other 9th level spells, namely Timestop and Disjuction. It is just that shapechange is the best defensive spell in the game. To closely match it in power would take several lower level spells like mindblank, deathward, and some energy resistance/immunities, which I believe covers a good chunk of what shapechange gives you on the defensive.

[lance]

This thread, or more specifically, your autofellatic trainwreck of it, have proven your view of 'broken' as 'Even the Character Optimization Min Maxers admit it's stupidly cheesy', not anything to do with a normal group. You simply invoke the usual bullshit. Question the definition of 'powergaming',

Broken is relative thing.

Not really, not in a game so rigorously defined by mathematics. Only an imbecile thinks that something so imbued with math and direct rules could be subjective.

Unfortunately I believe that being broken you need to outshine the rest of your party or make things really difficult for the DM. This will be relative.

Instead, you bring up farcical bullshit about you making up your own classes or not knowing the rules to cause problems;

It was 4 or 5 years ago for most of the rules problems, as for making up our own classes, it was that campains idea. He thought it would be cool to have kits or something.

I

think anyone reading has come to one of three conclusions:
1) You're outright lying.
2) Your DM is a pussywhipped coward who forks over whatever you want.
3) You've never actually played and just read the CO boards.

I'm not lying. My DMs did not just fork over what ever we wanted.

invoke various bullshit about how 'normal' groups are much more like yours, really, honest, I SWEAR TO GOD THEY ARE, and other such blatant falsehoods.

I did not say anything about how my campains were normal. Some where, some weren't. Only that yours went against the DMG when it came to the purchase of magical items. I don't know if it is normal to follow that part or not. My play group had a basic anything allowed style campains. It worked out fine. I never stated my campain experiances were normal, I am sure a lot of it was, but I am also sure that some things weren't. I don't think most people don't change campains like their socks, but that how my play group went.

Talking to you is certainly an adventure into questionable grammar. 'I don't think most people don't change campaigns like their socks'. Did you mean the double negative?

No, the second don't shouldn't be there.

Mine have, unsurprisingly, always followed the guidelines in published material. I just realize that this farcical idea that any metropolis will have any item over the limit as for sale if you wander into the right shop has, of course, never been the published intent. You can tell, because of the Union bits Overlord posted, or the FRCS bits, or any of a dozen other niggling little things that utterly destroy your farces of arguments.

Right, because the fact that a guild ups the size of a city by one for determining the magic items that can be purchased there, the fact that the red wizards are trying to corner the market through unloading tons of cheap items and threats of force. Their being a specialized shop that deals with what happens when you can't find that special item that your looking for changes what is written in the DMG.
Now you are apparently trying to divine what the writers really meant by "most likely available"

[SirNitram]

Broken is relative thing.

Not really, not in a game so rigorously defined by mathematics. Only an imbecile thinks that something so imbued with math and direct rules could be subjective.

Unfortunately I believe that being broken you need to outshine the rest of your party or make things really difficult for the DM. This will be relative.

Sadly, what you beleive is just another peice of subjective garbage. When the quantifiable output of something is vastly higher than other things, it's broken.

You, of course, will screech and whine, but that's just a reminder that your argument hinges on declaring it all subjective.

Instead, you bring up farcical bullshit about you making up your own classes or not knowing the rules to cause problems;

It was 4 or 5 years ago for most of the rules problems, as for making up our own classes, it was that campains idea. He thought it would be cool to have kits or something.

Here's my not giving a shit. It is utterly irrelevent to our discussion.

think anyone reading has come to one of three conclusions:
1) You're outright lying.
2) Your DM is a pussywhipped coward who forks over whatever you want.
3) You've never actually played and just read the CO boards.

I'm not lying. My DMs did not just fork over what ever we wanted.

Then you'd never be declaring half the utter tripe you've been shitting out onto this thread. But you are, so clearly one of the three is true.

I did not say anything about how my campains were normal. Some where, some weren't. Only that yours went against the DMG when it came to the purchase of magical items. I don't know if it is normal to follow that part or not. My play group had a basic anything allowed style campains. It worked out fine. I never stated my campain experiances were normal, I am sure a lot of it was, but I am also sure that some things weren't. I don't think most people don't change campains like their socks, but that how my play group went.

Talking to you is certainly an adventure into questionable grammar. 'I don't think most people don't change campaigns like their socks'. Did you mean the double negative?

No, the second don't shouldn't be there.

Mine have, unsurprisingly, always followed the guidelines in published material. I just realize that this farcical idea that any metropolis will have any item over the limit as for sale if you wander into the right shop has, of course, never been the published intent. You can tell, because of the Union bits Overlord posted, or the FRCS bits, or any of a dozen other niggling little things that utterly destroy your farces of arguments.

Right, because the fact that a guild ups the size of a city by one for determining the magic items that can be purchased there, the fact that the red wizards are trying to corner the market through unloading tons of cheap items and threats of force. Their being a specialized shop that deals with what happens when you can't find that special item that your looking for changes what is written in the DMG.
Now you are apparently trying to divine what the writers really meant by "most likely available"

Well, fucknuggets, unlike dishonest shitheads like you, when you see a statement like that, you do tend to try and divine what's meant. Because that's sort of the whole reason to have a sentence, to work out what it means. The difference, of course, is that you interperate it to the most ludicrously powergaming perspective, whereas I look at the full scope of published materials and then come to a logical conclusion based on data.

In other words, you're being a hysterical little dickhead.

[Hawk]

Now, perhaps I'm a little bias here, but I'd like to throw in my two cents while I still can. I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons for almost five years, and I usually try to avoid any of the non-core books. It seems like every time a new book is released, there is at least one new feat, monster, ability, spell, item, or monster that was overlooked, with consideration of the many other D&D books out on the market. Few books have rules handling psionics in campaigns. The creators of the Vow of Poverty obviously didn't consider the monk, or any character from a campaign that uses low item/gold availability. I have no idea what the creators of the Hulk classes were on when they thought they would be a good idea in a normal campaign world. The only thing I understand, though, is that most broken combos combine sourcebooks in unhealthy ways.

I, for one, don't have any problems with the Character Optimization boards. Dungeons and Dragons is a game. As such, it is created so that people can have fun. The rules exist so that people have the same opportunities for that fun. If lance's group has an interpretation of the rules that allows massive item availability, and they all agree on it, then there is no problem with that. If the good Sir Nitram plays in a world where anything magical is difficult to obtain to your specifications, then surely he must have a good reason for it as well. To each, their own. Both sides have reasons for what they believe in, quotes they can interpret to defend their points. This is turning into a debate over scripture. The D&D core rule books are not consistent within each other. This has turned from a question about variant magic styles to a semantics argument over DMG passages.

And then there is the powerplaying. If one character in the first level party is a paragon that suffers no ECL penalties while the rest of the campaign world is without templates, then the paragon is obviously broken because he is much more powerful than both his fellow players and his surroundings. If, for some unknown reason, the DM has applied the paragon template to everything in his world, including the PCs, then a paragon player is no longer broken, because he is the norm. This is my view on powerplaying, and brokenness in general.

From the sounds of it, lance's entire group seems to be of the same type of player as lance. The DM (or DMs, given his sock quote) will most likely have figured out how to handle this, most probably by stepping up the encounter difficulty. Some people get pleasure from role-playing, and others from leveling up.

A demilitch is broken in a party of bards. In a party of overpowered character builds and multi-templated enemies, a demilitch is not only on par with the world, but almost a necessity. Dungeons and Dragons is not a mathematically perfect game. It comes nowhere near to balance. Every book that is published adds to the disorder of Wizard's formula. It is up to the players to decide what balance is, and obviously, we all have made our own, unique, decisions.

*gets off soapbox*

You may continue with your flames.

[SirNitram]

This is turning into a debate over scripture. The D&D core rule books are not consistent within each other. This has turned from a question about variant magic styles to a semantics argument over DMG passages.

Despite this post, clearly trying to draw a Golden Mean Fallacy, only one side has employed semantics. Only one side has insisted the price limit means you can find a shop selling whatever you want, ignoring all other data.

What was the point of this post? Just to throw out the Golden Mean? Just to try and lay it into stupid, childish false causes like a demilich vs. a bunch of bards, vs. a Demilich in a realm of multi-template behemoths? Or we could try the idiotic bit where a +12-+18 CR template being given without ECL would be broken. No shit, sherlock!

You want to play with broken shit, that's your own damn business. But don't wander into a debate which has things like information and data and facts and claim it's all semantics. It makes you look like a moron. It's a good way to get flamed to a crisp in these forums, because ImpOverlord and I have been debating the same way we do in the fiction forums; with facts and logic, not justification and bullshit.

[lance]

Not really, not in a game so rigorously defined by mathematics. Only an imbecile thinks that something so imbued with math and direct rules could be subjective.

Unfortunately I believe that being broken you need to outshine the rest of your party or make things really difficult for the DM. This will be relative.

Sadly, what you beleive is just another peice of subjective garbage. When the quantifiable output of something is vastly higher than other things, it's broken.

You, of course, will screech and whine, but that's just a reminder that your argument hinges on declaring it all subjective.

Great so we agree. Brokeness is relative and has to due with something is vastly higher than other things. To me other things means the other players and the DM's ability to cope with his players power.

Instead, you bring up farcical bullshit about you making up your own classes or not knowing the rules to cause problems;

It was 4 or 5 years ago for most of the rules problems, as for making up our own classes, it was that campains idea. He thought it would be cool to have kits or something.

Here's my not giving a shit. It is utterly irrelevent to our discussion.

think anyone reading has come to one of three conclusions:
1) You're outright lying.
2) Your DM is a pussywhipped coward who forks over whatever you want.
3) You've never actually played and just read the CO boards.

I'm not lying. My DMs did not just fork over what ever we wanted.

Then you'd never be declaring half the utter tripe you've been shitting out onto this thread. But you are, so clearly one of the three is true.

Bull, certain items were not available due to them not existing in said campain world. Like thought bottle.

I did not say anything about how my campains were normal. Some where, some weren't. Only that yours went against the DMG when it came to the purchase of magical items. I don't know if it is normal to follow that part or not. My play group had a basic anything allowed style campains. It worked out fine. I never stated my campain experiances were normal, I am sure a lot of it was, but I am also sure that some things weren't. I don't think most people don't change campains like their socks, but that how my play group went.

Talking to you is certainly an adventure into questionable grammar. 'I don't think most people don't change campaigns like their socks'. Did you mean the double negative?

No, the second don't shouldn't be there.

Mine have, unsurprisingly, always followed the guidelines in published material. I just realize that this farcical idea that any metropolis will have any item over the limit as for sale if you wander into the right shop has, of course, never been the published intent. You can tell, because of the Union bits Overlord posted, or the FRCS bits, or any of a dozen other niggling little things that utterly destroy your farces of arguments.

Right, because the fact that a guild ups the size of a city by one for determining the magic items that can be purchased there, the fact that the red wizards are trying to corner the market through unloading tons of cheap items and threats of force. Their being a specialized shop that deals with what happens when you can't find that special item that your looking for changes what is written in the DMG.
Now you are apparently trying to divine what the writers really meant by "most likely available"

Well, fucknuggets, unlike dishonest shitheads like you, when you see a statement like that, you do tend to try and divine what's meant. Because that's sort of the whole reason to have a sentence, to work out what it means. The difference, of course, is that you interperate it to the most ludicrously powergaming perspective, whereas I look at the full scope of published materials and then come to a logical conclusion based on data.

Of course you go the extra mile and really try to BS what
the authors meant to suite your purpose, when it is clearly not stated to be what you say. Your logical conclusion is full of shit. The sources you cited didn't even help your fucking position. The crap about the red wizards is bs, because they are flooding the market with cheap crap in order to make their sales. Imperial Overlord cited a specialty shop that could contract any item you need, even if it is a custom built item. You also strawman my argument into any item being avalable. Which is something that I specified as not being the case.

In other words, you're being a hysterical little dickhead.

[Imperial Overlord]

Nice distortions shithead.

1) Redifining what is broken to "what the GM decides" from "what items/abilities/spells of equal worth do."

2) There was no guarrantee that the specialty shop in Union would be able to get the item you wanted made. It is the premier specialty shop because it is the best place in Union to try to get them.

3) Distortions on the Magic of Faerun where its dicusses Faerun's magic item trade in considerable detail. Faerun does have a magic items trade and the Red Wizards have three things going for them: they are easy to find, they have good prices, and they have a lot of useful product in stock. Powerful items aren't created on a whim, no one invests 4000xp and 100,000 gp without a guarranteed buyer. Low level magic items have a small enough buyer base to begin with because they cost what most people consider a small fortune. They do trade in more powerful items, but they don't mass produce them.

[lance]

Nice distortions shithead.

1) Redifining what is broken to "what the GM decides" from "what items/abilities/spells of equal worth do."

I don't care about broken items/abilities/spells/prestige/ classes I care about broken characters.

2) There was no guarrantee that the specialty shop in Union would be able to get the item you wanted made. It is the premier specialty shop because it is the best place in Union to try to get them.

I never said there was a guarrantee, only that it maybe the only place to get specialty items made.

3) Distortions on the Magic of Faerun where its dicusses Faerun's magic item trade in considerable detail. Faerun does have a magic items trade and the Red Wizards have three things going for them: they are easy to find, they have good prices, and they have a lot of useful product in stock. Powerful items aren't created on a whim, no one invests 4000xp and 100,000 gp without a guarranteed buyer. Low level magic items have a small enough buyer base to begin with because they cost what most people consider a small fortune. They do trade in more powerful items, but they don't mass produce them.

Umm, okay. I don't see where I distorted anything here.

[SirNitram]

Sadly, what you beleive is just another peice of subjective garbage. When the quantifiable output of something is vastly higher than other things, it's broken.

You, of course, will screech and whine, but that's just a reminder that your argument hinges on declaring it all subjective.

Great so we agree. Brokeness is relative and has to due with something is vastly higher than other things. To me other things means the other players and the DM's ability to cope with his players power.

You're a blatantly lying shithead. We don't agree, and broken classes, feats, and similar are not relative. You're just trying to weasal out because you can't make headway.

Read what I wrote, you lying turd.

I'm not lying. My DMs did not just fork over what ever we wanted.

Then you'd never be declaring half the utter tripe you've been shitting out onto this thread. But you are, so clearly one of the three is true.

Bull, certain items were not available due to them not existing in said campain world. Like thought bottle.

Ah, the truest sign of a CO Wanker: Thinking a DM restricting campaign equipment is the same as actually maintaining equipment balance.

Your logical conclusion is full of shit.

Glad to see your admiration for logical argumentation and thought.

The sources you cited didn't even help your fucking position.

Actually, they did. Reading them and comprehending them would have shown you this.

The crap about the red wizards is bs, because they are flooding the market with cheap crap in order to make their sales.

Did you read the whole thing? That's a threat they use, not the reason they're getting rich off selling +1's and wands of Fly.

Imperial Overlord cited a specialty shop that could contract any item you need, even if it is a custom built item.

In Union. Which isn't even guaranteed to be able to do it. That kills your argument, not mine.

You also strawman my argument into any item being avalable. Which is something that I specified as not being the case.

"Any thing having a price under that the limit is most likely available, whether it be mudane or magical" pg 137 DMs Guide. assuming most likely available is over a 50% chance, I win.

Did you forget that juvenile attempt already?

[lance]

Sadly, what you beleive is just another peice of subjective garbage. When the quantifiable output of something is vastly higher than other things, it's broken.

You, of course, will screech and whine, but that's just a reminder that your argument hinges on declaring it all subjective.

Great so we agree. Brokeness is relative and has to due with something is vastly higher than other things. To me other things means the other players and the DM's ability to cope with his players power.

You're a blatantly lying shithead. We don't agree, and broken classes, feats, and similar are not relative. You're just trying to weasal out because you can't make headway.

Read what I wrote, you lying turd.

Yes they are relative. You stated that they were not relative, then you go and use wording that means relative. If brokeness is based on being higher than other things it means it is dependent on something else which makes it relative, you fucking retard.

Then you'd never be declaring half the utter tripe you've been shitting out onto this thread. But you are, so clearly one of the three is true.

Bull, certain items were not available due to them not existing in said campain world. Like thought bottle.

Ah, the truest sign of a CO Wanker: Thinking a DM restricting campaign equipment is the same as actually maintaining equipment balance.

Balanced with regards to what?

Your logical conclusion is full of shit.

Glad to see your admiration for logical argumentation and thought.

The sources you cited didn't even help your fucking position.

Actually, they did. Reading them and comprehending them would have shown you this.

The crap about the red wizards is bs, because they are flooding the market with cheap crap in order to make their sales.

Did you read the whole thing? That's a threat they use, not the reason they're getting rich off selling +1's and wands of Fly.

[/quote] Eh? The threat is selling cheap crap?

Imperial Overlord cited a specialty shop that could contract any item you need, even if it is a custom built item.

In Union. Which isn't even guaranteed to be able to do it. That kills your argument, not mine.

Since when has "most likely" been a guarantee? I really would like to know.

You also strawman my argument into any item being avalable. Which is something that I specified as not being the case.

"Any thing having a price under that the limit is most likely available, whether it be mudane or magical" pg 137 DMs Guide. assuming most likely available is over a 50% chance, I win.

Did you forget that juvenile attempt already?

So 'most likely available' means 'is available'? Damn, who knew? I mean if it didn't then you would be either a lying piece of shit, or retarded.

[SirNitram]

Great so we agree. Brokeness is relative and has to due with something is vastly higher than other things. To me other things means the other players and the DM's ability to cope with his players power.

You're a blatantly lying shithead. We don't agree, and broken classes, feats, and similar are not relative. You're just trying to weasal out because you can't make headway.

Read what I wrote, you lying turd.

Yes they are relative. You stated that they were not relative, then you go and use wording that means relative. If brokeness is based on being higher than other things it means it is dependent on something else which makes it relative, you fucking retard.

.......

I'm dealing with a Grade School Dropout. Most make it to High School, but you apparently couldn't.

The only 'relative' in your discussion is based on subjectiveness.. Your opinion, which as shown is worth precisely dick. Mine is based on comparing two objective numbers. That you would dare equate the two is frankly insulting.

Bull, certain items were not available due to them not existing in said campain world. Like thought bottle.

Ah, the truest sign of a CO Wanker: Thinking a DM restricting campaign equipment is the same as actually maintaining equipment balance.

Balanced with regards to what?

Anything resembling the published material? This is your problem. You have to argue every word because you're that out of it.

The crap about the red wizards is bs, because they are flooding the market with cheap crap in order to make their sales.

Did you read the whole thing? That's a threat they use, not the reason they're getting rich off selling +1's and wands of Fly.

[/quote] Eh? The threat is selling cheap crap?[/quote]

And we can add basic economics to things you'll never understand. Flooding a market with dirt-cheap equipment.. Especially when most of it is considerably better than normal equipment.. Is the economic equivalent of hitting someone in the kneecap with a sledgehammer. Competitors die rapidly in this enviroment, then the monopoly is free to jack up prices.

Imperial Overlord cited a specialty shop that could contract any item you need, even if it is a custom built item.

In Union. Which isn't even guaranteed to be able to do it. That kills your argument, not mine.

Since when has "most likely" been a guarantee? I really would like to know.

And the CYA begins. Since all your replies say that a character will be able to get his +6 Stat Boosters, that's your own words to deal with. I don't give a shit if you're now splitting hairs.

You also strawman my argument into any item being avalable. Which is something that I specified as not being the case.

"Any thing having a price under that the limit is most likely available, whether it be mudane or magical" pg 137 DMs Guide. assuming most likely available is over a 50% chance, I win.

Did you forget that juvenile attempt already?

So 'most likely available' means 'is available'? Damn, who knew? I mean if it didn't then you would be either a lying piece of shit, or retarded.

Your own words, kid, not mine. You know, where you insist characters can reliably get +6 Attribute Boosters. Worthless peice of shit.

[lance]

You're a blatantly lying shithead. We don't agree, and broken classes, feats, and similar are not relative. You're just trying to weasal out because you can't make headway.

Read what I wrote, you lying turd.

Yes they are relative. You stated that they were not relative, then you go and use wording that means relative. If brokeness is based on being higher than other things it means it is dependent on something else which makes it relative, you fucking retard.

.......

I'm dealing with a Grade School Dropout. Most make it to High School, but you apparently couldn't.

The only 'relative' in your discussion is based on subjectiveness.. Your opinion, which as shown is worth precisely dick. Mine is based on comparing two objective numbers. That you would dare equate the two is frankly insulting.

Let's say someone compares 2 numbers, Y and X. If X is vastly larger than Y, it could be said to be very large relative to Y. That is exactly what you are doing to determine if something is broken.

Ah, the truest sign of a CO Wanker: Thinking a DM restricting campaign equipment is the same as actually maintaining equipment balance.

Balanced with regards to what?

Anything resembling the published material? This is your problem. You have to argue every word because you're that out of it.

Buying things from shops will make characters very comparable equipment to generic NPCs that have equivalant wealth which would indicate balance.

Did you read the whole thing? That's a threat they use, not the reason they're getting rich off selling +1's and wands of Fly.

Eh? The threat is selling cheap crap?

And we can add basic economics to things you'll never understand. Flooding a market with dirt-cheap equipment.. Especially when most of it is considerably better than normal equipment.. Is the economic equivalent of hitting someone in the kneecap with a sledgehammer. Competitors die rapidly in this enviroment, then the monopoly is free to jack up prices.

Its not a threat because that is their standard practice of selling things 10% cheaper than normal, at the low levels it means that any level 4 fighter looking for a magic sword is going to turn to the Red Wizards.

In Union. Which isn't even guaranteed to be able to do it. That kills your argument, not mine.

Since when has "most likely" been a guarantee? I really would like to know.

And the CYA begins. Since all your replies say that a character will be able to get his +6 Stat Boosters, that's your own words to deal with. I don't give a shit if you're now splitting hairs.

CYA? Anyway, A character will be able to get his hands on +6 stat boosters if he tries hard enough. He will most likely be able to purchase it at a shop, if not he may have to rob a high level NPC. A 19th level Barbarian will commonly have a belt +6 and a 17th level cleric will have a periapt, and so on.

You also strawman my argument into any item being avalable. Which is something that I specified as not being the case.

"Any thing having a price under that the limit is most likely available, whether it be mudane or magical" pg 137 DMs Guide. assuming most likely available is over a 50% chance, I win.

Did you forget that juvenile attempt already?

So 'most likely available' means 'is available'? Damn, who knew? I mean if it didn't then you would be either a lying piece of shit, or retarded.

Your own words, kid, not mine. You know, where you insist characters can reliably get +6 Attribute Boosters. Worthless peice of shit.

I consider a most likely chance of something occuring to be fairly reliable. Especially when you can try again at another city. Also just because it is reliable it does not mean it is an infallable system.

[SirNitram]

Yes they are relative. You stated that they were not relative, then you go and use wording that means relative. If brokeness is based on being higher than other things it means it is dependent on something else which makes it relative, you fucking retard.

.......

I'm dealing with a Grade School Dropout. Most make it to High School, but you apparently couldn't.

The only 'relative' in your discussion is based on subjectiveness.. Your opinion, which as shown is worth precisely dick. Mine is based on comparing two objective numbers. That you would dare equate the two is frankly insulting.

Let's say someone compares 2 numbers, Y and X. If X is vastly larger than Y, it could be said to be very large relative to Y. That is exactly what you are doing to determine if something is broken.

Yes it is. It is not, on the other hand, subjective, which is what your standard is. Are you feeling clever, dumb-shit, explaining why I'm right and you're wrong? Do you think you get points for it?

Balanced with regards to what?

Anything resembling the published material? This is your problem. You have to argue every word because you're that out of it.

Buying things from shops will make characters very comparable equipment to generic NPCs that have equivalant wealth which would indicate balance.

Not really. Generic NPC's don't have finely optimized builds; they have thematic expenses.

Eh? The threat is selling cheap crap?

And we can add basic economics to things you'll never understand. Flooding a market with dirt-cheap equipment.. Especially when most of it is considerably better than normal equipment.. Is the economic equivalent of hitting someone in the kneecap with a sledgehammer. Competitors die rapidly in this enviroment, then the monopoly is free to jack up prices.

Its not a threat because that is their standard practice of selling things 10% cheaper than normal, at the low levels it means that any level 4 fighter looking for a magic sword is going to turn to the Red Wizards.

Given that they are explicitly stated not to go over 2,000, it's not going to be the most powerful magic sword in creation.

However, I see you're simply fucking blind. You either didn't read, or far more likely, completely fail to understand, the basics of the reply because you didn't address it.

Since when has "most likely" been a guarantee? I really would like to know.

And the CYA begins. Since all your replies say that a character will be able to get his +6 Stat Boosters, that's your own words to deal with. I don't give a shit if you're now splitting hairs.

CYA?

'Cover Your Ass'. Otherwise known as what worthless fuckups do when they make blatant mistakes and can't support it.

Anyway, A character will be able to get his hands on +6 stat boosters if he tries hard enough. He will most likely be able to purchase it at a shop, if not he may have to rob a high level NPC. A 19th level Barbarian will commonly have a belt +6 and a 17th level cleric will have a periapt, and so on.

And with but a little patience, the complete bullshit argument is now in total collapse. From 'It'll be availiable to buy' it's now 'I'll just mug a random high level NPC and pray my DM's such a jackoff he'll give him the generic loadout'.

Did you forget that juvenile attempt already?

So 'most likely available' means 'is available'? Damn, who knew? I mean if it didn't then you would be either a lying piece of shit, or retarded.

Your own words, kid, not mine. You know, where you insist characters can reliably get +6 Attribute Boosters. Worthless peice of shit.

I consider a most likely chance of something occuring to be fairly reliable. Especially when you can try again at another city. Also just because it is reliable it does not mean it is an infallable system.

Then you shouldn't have argued it was inevitable. And you shouldn't pretend you're still right when in the same post you're moving the goalposts.

I'm done with you, kid. You've shown your true colours, and they have nothing to do with debating honestly.

[lance]

.......

I'm dealing with a Grade School Dropout. Most make it to High School, but you apparently couldn't.

The only 'relative' in your discussion is based on subjectiveness.. Your opinion, which as shown is worth precisely dick. Mine is based on comparing two objective numbers. That you would dare equate the two is frankly insulting.

Let's say someone compares 2 numbers, Y and X. If X is vastly larger than Y, it could be said to be very large relative to Y. That is exactly what you are doing to determine if something is broken.

Yes it is. It is not, on the other hand, subjective, which is what your standard is. Are you feeling clever, dumb-shit, explaining why I'm right and you're wrong? Do you think you get points for it?

How is my definition subjective? It requires the output of Character A to be vastly superior to Character B. This makes it relative. Which is the same as yours.

Anything resembling the published material? This is your problem. You have to argue every word because you're that out of it.

Buying things from shops will make characters very comparable equipment to generic NPCs that have equivalant wealth which would indicate balance.

Not really. Generic NPC's don't have finely optimized builds; they have thematic expenses.

I never said anything about the NPCs being finely optimized builds. I said that they will have comparable equipment. The player may have a cloak of resitance instead of a sheild or a ring of deflection instead of a melee weapon but they are comparable.

Eh? The threat is selling cheap crap?

And we can add basic economics to things you'll never understand. Flooding a market with dirt-cheap equipment.. Especially when most of it is considerably better than normal equipment.. Is the economic equivalent of hitting someone in the kneecap with a sledgehammer. Competitors die rapidly in this enviroment, then the monopoly is free to jack up prices.

Its not a threat because that is their standard practice of selling things 10% cheaper than normal, at the low levels it means that any level 4 fighter looking for a magic sword is going to turn to the Red Wizards.

Given that they are explicitly stated not to go over 2,000, it's not going to be the most powerful magic sword in creation.

However, I see you're simply fucking blind. You either didn't read, or far more likely, completely fail to understand, the basics of the reply because you didn't address it.

It doesn't need to be the most powerful sword in existence. Most adventurers will eventually need a magic item and most will buy it from the red wizards. They make up quality for quanity. As for your point, the point was that you said the threat is that they will undercut their competitors prices, make a monoply and jack up the prices. I got that, however it isn't really a threat, it is what they do.

And the CYA begins. Since all your replies say that a character will be able to get his +6 Stat Boosters, that's your own words to deal with. I don't give a shit if you're now splitting hairs.

CYA?

'Cover Your Ass'. Otherwise known as what worthless fuckups do when they make blatant mistakes and can't support it.

Anyway, A character will be able to get his hands on +6 stat boosters if he tries hard enough. He will most likely be able to purchase it at a shop, if not he may have to rob a high level NPC. A 19th level Barbarian will commonly have a belt +6 and a 17th level cleric will have a periapt, and so on.

And with but a little patience, the complete bullshit argument is now in total collapse. From 'It'll be availiable to buy' it's now 'I'll just mug a random high level NPC and pray my DM's such a jackoff he'll give him the generic loadout'.

My argument has always been most likely available in a city. If you are unlucky enough to not be able to find it you will have to find another source. I didn't say a random high level NPC I said a NPC. I am assuming the characters will do some sort of recon to hace some idea of what they are getting before hand.

So 'most likely available' means 'is available'? Damn, who knew? I mean if it didn't then you would be either a lying piece of shit, or retarded.

Your own words, kid, not mine. You know, where you insist characters can reliably get +6 Attribute Boosters. Worthless peice of shit.

I consider a most likely chance of something occuring to be fairly reliable. Especially when you can try again at another city. Also just because it is reliable it does not mean it is an infallable system.

Then you shouldn't have argued it was inevitable. And you shouldn't pretend you're still right when in the same post you're moving the goalposts.

If their are 10 metropolises in a campain, then there is a less than a half of percent chance of an item not being available. If a character is unlucky enough to not to be able to find one then it doesn't indicate imbalance of a VOP character any more than rolling a 1 against a death effect.

[SirNitram]

Slight Necro, but I beleive the rules allow for rezzing a thread with new data.

Specifically, the out and out declaration that Polymorph(And by extention, the superior Shapechange spell) is broken. By WotC.

Link

[lance]

It is broken due to power creep from various sources. But I will concide that the demilich is broken at 12 LA, due to spells like Assay Spell resistance.

[LadyTevar]

Slight Necro, but I beleive the rules allow for rezzing a thread with new data.

Specifically, the out and out declaration that Polymorph(And by extention, the superior Shapechange spell) is broken. By WotC.

Link

What would WoTC know about broken? They're the ones that did the Channel:Fireball or Channel:DrainLife combos in Magic:The Gathering!

[Ryoga]

Well, since this is still up at the top of the front page, I feel compelled to put my two coppers in....even if I usually avoid this kind of topic, since it tends to degrade into people who know the psionics rules arguing with people who don't but hate them anyway.

To answer the OP, I like both psionics and the default magic system. I haven't gotten to read Incarnum yet, but from what I've heard it seems neat.

Anyway, most of the problems people seem to have with psionics stem from not reading the rules properly, or blindly assuming the psion's ability to do something is 'broken' without stopping to think if other classes can do it too (often better). To wit, as seen in this thread:

-Psions don't get any special ability to dominate others outside of Charm or Suggestion, and if the DM ignores the plainly-stated restrictions on those abilities (no ordering people to their doom), that reflects worse on the DM than the ability in question.

-Psions have abilities that require Will saves, and can keep people from wailing on them for a long time. Like, uh, Charm Person and Suggestion, which can be used to have people do harmless (but not suicidal, like seen above) things for hours at a time. Except....wait, Sorcerors and Wizards can do that too. Whoops. Hey, they even get Hypnotic Pattern, which lets them hold someone's attention as long as they want.

-Psions can heal themselves (only), and also blast. Hey, if that's broken, I guess that makes the Cleric and Druid doubly broken since they can do that and also have some really strong abilities on top.

Things to bear in mind, however, that people who don't read the rules tend not to notice:

-Psions get a much smaller power list than even the Sorceror, who in turn gets less than the Wizard.
-Psionic characters of all stripes are limited to putting as many PP into a power as their manifester level, so they can't simply blow all of them on a 300d6 fireball or something like that. Manifester level doesn't go up anywhere near as quickly as caster level, unless you do a house-ruled Practiced Manifester feat or something (in which case any brokenness is on your hands, and not those of the game itself)
-Psionic focus doesn't give you infinite power points or anything stupid like that. It lets you treat your next Concentration check as a 15, and activates certain feats...but once you do either, you expend the focus and have to take a full-round action to get it back.
-Psionic powers don't freely scale with level like magic spells. As a standard spellcaster increases in caster level (rather easy to do given all the PrCs that increase caster level), his spell slots become more 'valuable' (damaging spells do more damage, others gain extra duration, etc. etc.)...if a psionic character wants to do that, he has to spend power points (no more than his manifester level, remember) to keep up.

EDIT: Deleted extraneous quote tag