Who is More Jedi...Mr Spock or Paul Atreides?

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2002-12-06 03:50pm

Talking about Jedi-like abilities, intra-galactic history, psychology, etc.

Shadowhawk · Post by **Shadowhawk** » 2002-12-06 06:02pm

Since Spock is all about lack of emotions, and Jedi is all about properly using emotions, the process of elimination leaves Paul.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-12-06 06:09pm

course, paul is prolly somewhat dark. he started a galactic civil war. . .

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-12-06 08:51pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:course, paul is prolly somewhat dark. he started a galactic civil war. . .

Given what we just saw in AotC, wouldn't that make him a better candidate for the Jedi position?

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-12-06 09:05pm

Who the fuck is this Paul character?

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-12-06 09:08pm

IG-88E wrote:Who the fuck is this Paul character?

I am assuming the dude from Dune, yes?

Scorpius · Post by **Scorpius** » 2002-12-06 10:45pm

Duke Paul Atreides, also known as Muad'dib to the Fremen of planet Arrakis (AKA Dune) in Frank Herbert's Dune series of books...

I'd say he's closer to Jedi than Spock:

1. He's got near-perfect prescient abilities.
2. He's a master in the arts of manipulation and politics (of his own people and others)
3. His Personal combat as described in the books, occurs much faster than normal humans. He is trained to the highest level of human capabilities.
4. He has incredible observation/logic skills (his mind has been trained as a Mentat: a human computer)
5. Voice = Jedi Mind trick only much stronger. Strong minds resist the Jedi Mind trick, but only minds TRAINED AGAINST voice can resist. Paul is stated to be the best user of voice until his son Leto II.
6. He fights with a blade as well as projectile launchers, Spock couldn't match him in personal combat.

There are other similarities, but I'd have to give this one to Paul by a long shot...

I'm also only going by the books, as both David Lynch's 1984 version and the Sci-Fi Channel's mini-series seemed to dumb down the explanation of his powers to their audiences (Lynch made Paul a God who could make it rain...WTF?!? and Sci-Fi made it look like he could disappear from his oppenent and then reappear as if he was phase-shifting...) The books were better by a mile.

Scorpius · Post by **Scorpius** » 2002-12-06 10:53pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:course, paul is prolly somewhat dark. he started a galactic civil war. . .

To be fair, the Emperor and the Harkonnens killed his father, stole his dukedom, tried to kill him and his mother etc. All the paths he saw in his visions led to human extinction without the Jihad, so his choices were rather limited...

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-06 10:54pm

I don't know I thought the impression given by the mini-series was accurate in its own way- he was trained in the bene-whatever the hell that sisterhood was called ways so he was very fast- what I didn't like about the miniseries was how it stuffed up some of the words- Lynch's 1984 version (flawed as it was) at least had Frank Herbert advising IIRC.

And hey- "My name is a killing word"

BEST. LINE. EVER.

Scorpius · Post by **Scorpius** » 2002-12-06 11:06pm

Vympel wrote:I don't know I thought the impression given by the mini-series was accurate in its own way- he was trained in the bene-whatever the hell that sisterhood was called ways so he was very fast- what I didn't like about the miniseries was how it stuffed up some of the words- Lynch's 1984 version (flawed as it was) at least had Frank Herbert advising IIRC.

And hey- "My name is a killing word"

BEST. LINE. EVER.

Cool line agreed. I was SUCH a big fan of the books. Any chance to nitpick I guess.

...No wait a minute. I just remembered that the mini-series pissed me right off. My favourite character Duncan Idaho: in the first book kills 19 of the emperors elite terror troops in personal combat before being shot in the head and killed (before they resurrect him in later books.) Nine-fucking-teen.

In the mini-series, they drop a FUCKING BOMB on him from an ornithopter doing a strafing run. WTF?????

Bene Gesserit sisterhood- They also had some pretty cool lines too...

Scorpius · Post by **Scorpius** » 2002-12-06 11:13pm

Vympel wrote:... at least had Frank Herbert advising IIRC.

Herbert said that the movie had got it wrong: Paul wasn't a god- he was a man playing at being a god...He was disappointed that the movie didn't convey that, because much of what he was writing about had to do with the INFECTION of heroes and powerful men. That's why in the second book he has Paul talking about the nine billion people who had died after 12 years of his reign: he wanted to show the consequences.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-06 11:14pm

[quote="Scorpius"]

...No wait a minute. I just remembered that the mini-series pissed me right off. My favourite character Duncan Idaho: in the first book kills 19 of the emperors elite terror troops in personal combat before being shot in the head and killed (before they resurrect him in later books.) Nine-fucking-teen.

In the mini-series, they drop a FUCKING BOMB on him from an ornithopter doing a strafing run. WTF?????[quote]

Yeah that did kind of suck. In the Lynch film though he managed to kill a few Sardaukar- but not 19 dammit.

Captain tycho · Post by **Captain tycho** » 2002-12-06 11:33pm

Scorpius wrote:Duke Paul Atreides, also known as Muad'dib to the Fremen of planet Arrakis (AKA Dune) in Frank Herbert's Dune series of books...

I'd say he's closer to Jedi than Spock:

1. He's got near-perfect prescient abilities.
2. He's a master in the arts of manipulation and politics (of his own people and others)
3. His Personal combat as described in the books, occurs much faster than normal humans. He is trained to the highest level of human capabilities.
4. He has incredible observation/logic skills (his mind has been trained as a Mentat: a human computer)
5. Voice = Jedi Mind trick only much stronger. Strong minds resist the Jedi Mind trick, but only minds TRAINED AGAINST voice can resist. Paul is stated to be the best user of voice until his son Leto II.
Strong minds may resist Force tricks performed by weaker Jedi, but in no way a strong Knight or Master.
Palpy had enough power to cloud the minds of billions, perhaps trillions of people at once.
I know it's off topic, but I I just thouhg I'd add my 2 cents....

Captain tycho · Post by **Captain tycho** » 2002-12-06 11:34pm

Damn edit.
The bottom part is mine, the top one was supposed to be quoted.

Scorpius · Post by **Scorpius** » 2002-12-07 12:28am

Captain tycho wrote:[Strong minds may resist Force tricks performed by weaker Jedi, but in no way a strong Knight or Master.
Palpy had enough power to cloud the minds of billions, perhaps trillions of people at once.
I know it's off topic, but I I just thouhg I'd add my 2 cents....

[/quote]

Did Palpy cloud their minds though? He may have manipulated the situation to genuinely convince everyone that his course of action (the Grand Army, special powers etc.) were in his best interest. I'm not saying he couldn't mind trick them though...

I was thinking more about what I saw in the movies (Kenobi with the Stormtrooper, Luke in Jabba's palace) and the JMT didn't seem that powerful. It does seem rather similar in effect though...

But what do you think though? Isn't Paul closer to Jedi than Spock?

Scorpius · Post by **Scorpius** » 2002-12-07 12:30am

woops. Meant to say in "their" (citizens of the Republic's) best interests.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-12-07 07:06pm

Paul has got combat abilities that would make a Jedi cry, and he has the weirding ways of the BG.

Spoke has pointy ear's no emotions and he can make ppl fall asleep by touching their shoulders.

You work it out.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-12-08 02:17am

Scorpius wrote:
Vympel wrote:I don't know I thought the impression given by the mini-series was accurate in its own way- he was trained in the bene-whatever the hell that sisterhood was called ways so he was very fast- what I didn't like about the miniseries was how it stuffed up some of the words- Lynch's 1984 version (flawed as it was) at least had Frank Herbert advising IIRC.

And hey- "My name is a killing word"

BEST. LINE. EVER.
Cool line agreed. I was SUCH a big fan of the books. Any chance to nitpick I guess.

...No wait a minute. I just remembered that the mini-series pissed me right off. My favourite character Duncan Idaho: in the first book kills 19 of the emperors elite terror troops in personal combat before being shot in the head and killed (before they resurrect him in later books.) Nine-fucking-teen.

In the mini-series, they drop a FUCKING BOMB on him from an ornithopter doing a strafing run. WTF?????

Well in the movie AFAIR Duncan doesn't kill squat. As soon as he turns on his forcefield, a Harkonnen shows up, fires some kind of dart that decelerates and goes slowly thru the field and kills him by a headshot.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-12-08 05:06am

Paul-

Even if he is a Genocidal, Religious fanatic

Scorpius · Post by **Scorpius** » 2002-12-08 10:52am

THe Yosemite Bear wrote:Paul-

Even if he is a Genocidal, Religious fanatic

He's not a religious fanatic: He uses religious fanatics

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-12-08 02:30pm

I have not read the Dune books, but I've seen that old 80's craptacualr event, and I have the Sci Fi one on DVD. Personally, I love the Sci Fi version, I just don't know how close to the books it would be. However, no hijacking today folks, Paul is far more Jedi than Spock could ever hope to be. Spock is a more advanced human. Paul uses the fucking Force to sense people and move (the sidestepping and slipping he does in the sci fi version). Plus he has visions from the Force.

Dodge · Post by **Dodge** » 2002-12-08 03:17pm

I loved Dune (Lynch definitely has strange vision), and the feudalism that exists in that system makes me think oddly enough of the feudalism in the Far East, though don't ask me why.

Paul Atreides is without doubt the Jedi - he has real power over people and minds. He is different from normal people; he survived the "box" which men never had survived before.

Atreides: "They tried and failed?"
Rev Mother: "They tried and died."

Anyway, Spock is far too logical to be a Jedi. His feet are too firmly on the ground. He does not possess a mind ready to accept something such as the Force which cannot be easily explained.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-12-08 04:20pm

I was spoiled in a way coz i saw the Lynch version of Dune before a read the book. I was only a youngling at the time and that kinda writting woulda been way over my head. as it seems the the moment the Dune universe seems to have accepted parts of the movie such as thw weirding modules, you get them in Emperor: battle for Dune. the book was very advanced for it''s time coz it dealt with a lot of very complex idea's such as the machine revolt and it also brought the existance of Hindi and Ismalic idea's to the fold. At the time the book was written people didn't reammy mention non-christian religons. My only problem these days is that that green gilled cock master Kevin J Anderson is ruining the universe.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-12-08 04:21pm

True but after he exports Fremen fanaticism, his body count goes way, up, he even wonders if anyone will ever top him.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-12-08 04:26pm

Leto II does. He makes his daddy look like a pacifist