Shadow Death Cloud vs DeathStar

[Darth Wong]

But JMS explained that obviously that it wasn't a natural phenominon, but the Humans at that point induced the Sun to go nova, by over the course of days (weeks?) opening JP inside Sol and unstabilising it.

JMS actually said that in public? ROTFLMAO!!! Where the fuck did this idiotic brain bug start whereby a star is presumed to be some sort of metastable system which will explode if you just tip it over?

Supernovae occur because a star runs out of fuel, loses the ability to sustain its own bulk against gravity, collapses, and then is violently ignited again as GPE is converted to heat and particle density increases. The only meaningful way to induce a supernova is to somehow shut off all nuclear fusion in a star, wait for thouasnds of years, and then turn it back on again. Either that, or squeeze it in a super-vise (this is the Centrepoint Station idea). You could induce all manner of instabilities and turbulence in a star without making it go nova. Hell, you could blow it in half with an uber-weapon and it still wouldn't go nova; it would just come back together again and eventually restart.

So this begs the question. If the EA had the ability to open one JP inside another one, why didn't they ever show the ability to target another ship? Aslo if humans in 1,000,000 years can induce a Sun to go nova by opening JP's inside it, why didn't the Vorlons do the same to the Shadows, or the YR during the 'battles'?

The Fivers are desperate to find some sort of "trick" to cheat defeat because they know none of the numbers are on their side, so they cast about looking for some kind of mechanism for which no numbers exist and for which they can happily claim virtual omnipotence. They they hang their hats on the fact that we can't prove a negative, ie- prove that it cannot be done. More fun with rabid Fiver "logic"

[XaLEv]

XaLev, there is no evidence anything from extradimensional space can peirce an Imperial shield or armour belt. Reasons are twofold: One, it is speficially stated Hypercomms and Subspace based comms can't peirce them.

Irrelevant and fallacious. SW hyperspace and subspace comms do not utilize B5 hyperspace.

Second is the common acknolwedgement(At least through the variety of genres I've seen) that high density metals block extradimensional travel.

This is the first I've heard of it. Please provide an example, and then show that it is relevant to the discussion at hand.

There is no evidence anywhere B5 Hyperspace would be capable of skipping through particle shields.

And there is no evidence that SW particle shields extend into dimensions their designers can have no knowledge of.

[Enlightenment]

Assuming they don't just turn down the heat dissipation systems a notch.

Nah. Keep the radiators running and turn the hypermatter reactor up to full power. Given the kind of energy levels found in the B5 universe, it's rather unlikely that the SPK won't have been designed to reject that much heat. After few minutes the SPK will run into a few little problems. Little problems like its components melting.


Say, anyone know if superlasers can be flak bursted?

[Crown]

JMS actually said that in public? ROTFLMAO!!! Where the fuck did this idiotic brain bug start whereby a star is presumed to be some sort of metastable system which will explode if you just tip it over?

Supernovae occur because a star runs out of fuel, loses the ability to sustain its own bulk against gravity, collapses, and then is violently ignited again as GPE is converted to heat and particle density increases. The only meaningful way to induce a supernova is to somehow shut off all nuclear fusion in a star, wait for thouasnds of years, and then turn it back on again. Either that, or squeeze it in a super-vise (this is the Centrepoint Station idea). You could induce all manner of instabilities and turbulence in a star without making it go nova. Hell, you could blow it in half with an uber-weapon and it still wouldn't go nova; it would just come back together again and eventually restart.

Now now, don't shoot the messenger. The point that I am trying to show (I think) is the ability of humans in 1,000,000 years being able to open JP's inside a star. Now it's up to others to decide whether this is akin to opening a JP inside solid matter. I agree that the premise is very much, by my understanding, well wrong. For the full quote;

http://babylon5.cybersite.com.au/lurk/guide/088.html

"My personal nit is that JMS has the sun going nova in only a million years. This seems several orders of magnitude too soon for me."
Actually, the computer voice specifies that it is continuing to note atypical solar emissions...atypical meaning something unusual is going on.


And what if you, say, interfered substantially with the mass of the sun by, say, causing a series of jump points to open up *inside* the sun across several days?

You'd also substantially decrease the mass of Sol, which as I understand it, would result in the sun going nova.

The Fivers are desperate to find some sort of "trick" to cheat defeat because they know none of the numbers are on their side, so they cast about looking for some kind of mechanism for which no numbers exist and for which they can happily claim virtual omnipotence. They they hang their hats on the fact that we can't prove a negative, ie- prove that it cannot be done. More fun with rabid Fiver "logic"

I agree, however in their defence we do see the Excalibur taking down 4(?) Drakh Raiders by opening a JP infront of them (which they just flew into and got destroyed), in either ACtA or War Zone of Crusade. But there you go.

Why would they do such a silly thing? They never said that in the episode, right? Was that JMS in an after-show interview or something?

-Oh by the way Death Star kicks Shadow Planet Killer in the balls with one Superlaser blast if the other Turbolasers do nothing (even though I love the Shadows as villains, they don't stand a chance against the Death Star...)

See the link above for JMS's analysis on that episode, and I agree the Death Star would soooooo kill the Death Cloud.

I think what happened there was that they opened a jump point inside a jump GATE which caused the big boom, The jump gate being stationary (as much as anything in space is...) made it easy to target. The result was also a destroyed jump gate, which means no hyperspace travel to that area for any small ships that can't open their own jump point

Yes that is what they did, however the point is that they have the technology to 'target' the JP openings to an area in space the size of a Jump Gate, and open a new JP inside another JP. So why the claim that they can't target individual capital size ships? They can, but they don't use it as a tactic, so we must ask ourselves why?

Say, anyone know if superlasers can be flak bursted?

That is just evil

[Darth Wong]

And what if you, say, interfered substantially with the mass of the sun by, say, causing a series of jump points to open up *inside* the sun across several days?

You'd also substantially decrease the mass of Sol, which as I understand it, would result in the sun going nova.

LOL! Not only is it hearsay (ie- him talking on a mailing list, not dialogue or narrative in the show), but he doesn't even say that it's what happened; he only proposes it as a possible explanation, using some really stupid pseudoscience! "As I understand it" ... ha!

Does it occur to him if a jumpgate really did act like some kind of suction device and siphon solar mass into hyperspace, thus greatly reducing the mass of the Sun, then it would PREVENT a nova? A nova only occurs because of immense gravitational attraction; take away mass, and you reduce the gravity.

[Crown]

Does it occur to him if a jumpgate really did act like some kind of suction device and siphon solar mass into hyperspace, thus greatly reducing the mass of the Sun, then it would PREVENT a nova? A nova only occurs because of immense gravitational attraction; take away mass, and you reduce the gravity.

Hey I completely agree, however assuming that this is what he meant for it to happen in the show, would that prove/enable JP to be opened inside a dense mass?

[Sea Skimmer]

And what if you, say, interfered substantially with the mass of the sun by, say, causing a series of jump points to open up *inside* the sun across several days?

You'd also substantially decrease the mass of Sol, which as I understand it, would result in the sun going nova.

LOL! Not only is it hearsay (ie- him talking on a mailing list, not dialogue or narrative in the show), but he doesn't even say that it's what happened; he only proposes it as a possible explanation, using some really stupid pseudoscience! "As I understand it" ... ha!

Does it occur to him if a jumpgate really did act like some kind of suction device and siphon solar mass into hyperspace, thus greatly reducing the mass of the Sun, then it would PREVENT a nova? A nova only occurs because of immense gravitational attraction; take away mass, and you reduce the gravity.

Seems to be a common sci fi brain bug these days. Taking away mass=nova. It should be that adding alot of mass will give you a nova IIRC.

[Darth Wong]

JMS obviously has an eighth-grader's concept of science. He may be contemptuous of Trek, but his pedigree for realism is derived entirely from his use of Wing Commander flight physics and rotational simulated gravity, neither of which imply or require extensive or even workable knowledge of basic physics. Apart from these two items, virtually everything else he's ever done has made a mockery of science, starting with the very first episode (a five mile long space station hurled off-axis and people flailing about in the bridge because of an explosive decompression in one fucking compartment!) and continuing with his parroting of the widespread "organic = superior" brain-bug.

As for SPK vs DS, this is how the argument has gone so far:

• Everyone points out that the Death Star has billions of times more firepower than the SPK, so its attack would be a waste of time. The DS could actually destroy the SPK by destroying the planet, and allowing the blast to kill the SPK as collateral damage.
• Fiver ignores that point completely, and says that SPK will perform a sneak attack on the Death Star using various technobabble techniques, easily ignore all of its defenses (none of which the SPK has ever seen before), etc.
• Everybody else lets the Fiver's evasion slide and points out that the SPK has never demonstrated the ability to do these things.
• Fiver screams that we can't prove the negative, therefore it's probably true.
• Everyone else points out that these "phase through defenses" and "drop out of hyperspace on top of target" tricks would have been really handy when the SPK attacked Earth, rather than allowing a hostile fleet to attack it.
• Fiver repeats that we can't prove the negative, therefore it's probably true. Lovingly places another brick in his Wall of Ignorance(TM).

[Vejut]

XaLev, I beleive that's an assumption when a inter-universe vs. debate is started, isn't it? I.E., ImpStar subspace gear can jam/be jammed by Starfleet gear in SW vs. ST debates? Or is that just something spewing from my demented mind? And even so, when they both call it hyperspace, and use it in the same way, it starts looking like you're trying to draw a line that doesn't really exist.


In addition, even if the above is not true, it serves as evidence that Star Destroyer shields DO have a component out of realspace.

[Darth Wong]

I like the way he assumes that B5 jump technology won't be stopped by SW technology because the SW side has never seen it before.

Curiously enough, he does not think that SW shields will have any effect against B5 jump technology ... even though the B5 side has never seen it before.

This is why the "they've never seen it before" argument is bogus; it is invariably applied to only one side, when it could always be turned around and applied to the other side just as easily.

[SirNitram]

XaLev, I beleive that's an assumption when a inter-universe vs. debate is started, isn't it? I.E., ImpStar subspace gear can jam/be jammed by Starfleet gear in SW vs. ST debates? Or is that just something spewing from my demented mind? And even so, when they both call it hyperspace, and use it in the same way, it starts looking like you're trying to draw a line that doesn't really exist.


In addition, even if the above is not true, it serves as evidence that Star Destroyer shields DO have a component out of realspace.

It's called Parity, and all logical debators use it. Of course, XaLev and SAMAS don't like to admit it, since it often ruins their plans.

[Darth Wong]

... evidence that Star Destroyer shields DO have a component out of realspace.

Affirmative. SW ships have complex mass (read the SW2ICS, see "complex numbers" in a mathematics textbook). This means that part of their mass (perhaps the majority of it) quite literally exists at 90 degrees to reality. This may be what "hypermatter" refers to.

[SirNitram]

... evidence that Star Destroyer shields DO have a component out of realspace.

Affirmative. SW ships have complex mass (read the SW2ICS, see "complex numbers" in a mathematics textbook). This means that part of their mass (perhaps the majority of it) quite literally exists at 90 degrees to reality. This may be what "hypermatter" refers to.

My math is shoddy.. What would this psudeorealspace mass do to it's mass signature?

[Durandal]

He may be contemptuous of Trek, but his pedigree for realism is derived entirely from his use of Wing Commander flight physics and rotational simulated gravity, neither of which imply or require extensive or even workable knowledge of basic physics.

It's even funnier than that. He simply assumes "if spin somewhere, then gravity everywhere." Look at where the command center on B5 is placed. The floor should be the ceiling, and the crew would experience significantly less than 1g of acceleration, going up.

That and the EA ships are horrendously unconducive to rotationally simulated gravity. Their shapes are irregular, which would make for irregular gravity. There's a reason scientists want space stations shaped like rings.

[DodoBrd16]

"The Fivers are desperate to find some sort of "trick" to cheat defeat because they know none of the numbers are on their side, so they cast about looking for some kind of mechanism for which no numbers exist and for which they can happily claim virtual omnipotence. They they hang their hats on the fact that we can't prove a negative, ie- prove that it cannot be done. More fun with rabid Fiver "logic" "
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Okay, I'm assuming this but what the hell, being the greatest fan of B5 of this board((thats the assumption)) I'm going to say something.

There is no way in HELL that the younger races of B5 from the freakin Gaim all the way to the Minbari would have a chance in hell of fighting off the empire if it were launching a full blown invasion of the Milky way. Even if the governments of B5 fully united, they still wouldnt have the numbers or the sheer fire power to pull it off. With out First one intervention, their screwed several times over.

And being a fanatical B5 fan, I have yet to hear any significant number of other Fivers say that the B5 younger races could defeat the empire. And I have yet to hear anything like it at B5tech.com

As for the current discussion of opening Jump points inside a ship, I have yet to say that it is a reliable or even realistic form of weaponry. I have on several occaisons said that it is innacurate and its only real chance of being effective would be against stationary targets or ones in predictable orbits or paths. Hell when I said that I implied that the White star would be one of the few ships capable of doing it due to its more advance jump engines.

Oh and Mr Wong, the reason why America does not use nuclear weapons is because the planet is small place. However the SW galaxy is huge with Millions of planets....I seriously doubt Vaporizing a few miles of surface on a single piss spot planet on the back side of the galaxy, is going to cause catastrophic damage to the rest of known space. And it would be the sensible thing to do.

[DodoBrd16]

"Fiver repeats that we can't prove the negative, therefore it's probably true. Lovingly places another brick in his Wall of Ignorance(TM). "
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Actually I'd say its more like....

The possibility is there, we cant confirm its true. Yet you cant say its false.

However if you take JMS's statments on Super Nova, no matter how wrong in the fields of the mechanics of a star they are, to mean that a JP can form in side of something then we may have confirmation that a Jump point can be formed in side of something.......however it all depends on how you take it.

[Darth Wong]

And being a fanatical B5 fan, I have yet to hear any significant number of other Fivers say that the B5 younger races could defeat the empire. And I have yet to hear anything like it at B5tech.com

True. That would be simply insane. However, quite frankly, arguing that the Shadows could beat or even survive the Empire is almost as insane.

As for the current discussion of opening Jump points inside a ship, I have yet to say that it is a reliable or even realistic form of weaponry. I have on several occaisons said that it is innacurate and its only real chance of being effective would be against stationary targets or ones in predictable orbits or paths.

It is irrelevant whether it is inaccurate. You have yet to show that it would work at all.

Oh and Mr Wong, the reason why America does not use nuclear weapons is because the planet is small place.

Don't be an idiot. There would be no global effect from the use of a few nuclear weapons.

However the SW galaxy is huge with Millions of planets....I seriously doubt Vaporizing a few miles of surface on a single piss spot planet on the back side of the galaxy, is going to cause catastrophic damage to the rest of known space. And it would be the sensible thing to do.

You could nuke 50 cities on Earth without causing catastrophic damage to the rest of the planet. You still quite obviously don't understand what's wrong with indiscriminate use of WMD's as a standard military tactic, hence your bizarre assertion that any military situation where they don't use them is proof of incompetence.

[Darth Wong]

"Fiver repeats that we can't prove the negative, therefore it's probably true. Lovingly places another brick in his Wall of Ignorance(TM). "

Actually I'd say its more like....

The possibility is there, we cant confirm its true. Yet you cant say its false.

Exactly the same idiotic argument used to pretend that God is a reasonable hypothesis. Go back to school and learn some elementary logic, for fuck's sake.

PS. Hearsay offscreen ruminations from JMS are hardly "evidence". It amazes me what level of shit "evidence" Fivers will stoop to.

[DodoBrd16]

Oh and what is this crap about how it only takes only two, 2 megaton warhead to wack a Sharlin.

This is obviously false because if it were the case the Minbari never would have gotten past the second EA colony. The EA would have been tossing Megatoners around as if they were going out of style.

So obviously, logic dictates that either something was in that field that assited in the destruction of the Black Star, or something was wrong with the ship its self.

Because I seriously F'n doubt that EA would have any problems making tens of thousands if not Millions of High yield war heads, even larger then the two, 2 megaton warheads that destroyed the Black star and you can sure as hell bet your ass EF would have been tossing them around very liberally when it was finnaly figured out the the Minbari had Genocide on their minds.

[Crown]

It's from ItB, it's cannon, deal with it I am afraid.

[Darth Wong]

Oh and what is this crap about how it only takes only two, 2 megaton warhead to wack a Sharlin.

Go whine to JMS, not me. He wrote the script, and Boxleitner said it onscreen.

This is obviously false because if it were the case the Minbari never would have gotten past the second EA colony. The EA would have been tossing Megatoners around as if they were going out of style.

Too bad they didn't. You act as though their failure to use a tactic with known success represents proof that the tactic didn't exist, rather than proof that they were not brave enough to nuke themselves in order to kill the enemy (or perhaps you didn't realize that nukes at close quarters would be lethal to both sides).

So obviously, logic dictates that either something was in that field that assited in the destruction of the Black Star, or something was wrong with the ship its self.

Your "logic" disregards other possibilities in order to construct a false dilemma.

Because I seriously F'n doubt that EA would have any problems making tens of thousands if not Millions of High yield war heads, even larger then the two, 2 megaton warheads that destroyed the Black star and you can sure as hell bet your ass EF would have been tossing them around very liberally when it was finnaly figured out the the Minbari had Genocide on their minds.

Ah, brilliant plan. Destroy your own defensive fleet with close-range nuclear explosions. You should apply for the job of EA fleet commander.

[DodoBrd16]

"Don't be an idiot. There would be no global effect from the use of a few nuclear weapons. "
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Well it sure as shit would have regional effects and for any poor bastards that are down wind.

They are area weapons, not just for the poor suns of bitches in the blast radius, but possibly for nations we would rather not piss off down wind.

However fifty or a hundred or even a thousand nuclear warheads could be used in the SW galaxy and not even be noticed.

And I'm sorry Mr. Wong but I sure as shit cant see the logic of a Galactic spanning race going toe to toe with an opponent when then can simply blow the shit out of them from orbit. Its the smart thing to do and you damn well know it.

If you can kill their forces with out losing any of your own, you damn well better do it.

[Darth Wong]

Don't be an idiot. There would be no global effect from the use of a few nuclear weapons.

Well it sure as shit would have regional effects and for any poor bastards that are down wind.

Irrelevant. You claimed that if there are no widespread catastrophic consequences, there's no reason not to use them. I just pointed out that there are no widespread catastrophic consequences. Either concede or continue to argue your point, but do not try to quietly shift your position while not admitting your error.

They are area weapons, not just for the poor suns of bitches in the blast radius, but possibly for nations we would rather not piss off down wind.

Bullshit. Fallout from nuclear airbursts is HIGHLY regional, and for high-yield blasts, it is insignificant.

However fifty or a hundred or even a thousand nuclear warheads could be used in the SW galaxy and not even be noticed.

You're still ignoring the point, which is that you cannot characterize every disuse of WMD as incompetence simply because it would not cause widespread catastrophic consequences. If one nuclear weapon could be used without catastrophic consequences (as I have already shown) then by your logic, the US should have used nukes in Vietnam and Korea. The only damage would have been highly localized, with no global effects or even long-term environmental damage if they stick to high-yield airbursts.

And I'm sorry Mr. Wong but I sure as shit cant see the logic of a Galactic spanning race going toe to toe with an opponent when then can simply blow the shit out of them from orbit. Its the smart thing to do and you damn well know it.

Unless they want to capture the facility, and they are being controlled by a would-be dictator who does not want to show his true colours immediately. Duh.

If you can kill their forces with out losing any of your own, you damn well better do it.

I reiterate: by your "logic", the US should be regularly using nuclear weapons.

PS. You are now focusing your points ENTIRELY on the issue of Republic military competence, rather than the original SPK vs DS issue. What does this mean?

[DodoBrd16]

"Ah, brilliant plan. Destroy your own defensive fleet with close-range nuclear explosions. You should apply for the job of EA fleet commander."
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In B5 they have these magical little things called missiles.....you may have heared of them, they can carry these things called Warheads. Ships launch these things en mass, at a closing Minbari fleet. Next we see warheads getting intercepted, but as we all know Minbari defenses arent perfect, because if they were, then SFs never would have been able to slam into them......... now you have dozens if not Hundreds of warheads detonating in a Minbari fleet.

Destroying the fleet.

Oh and as the war was nearing an end, EA forces seemed to have no real problem sacrificing themselves in order to destroy Minbari ships. So they just might have detonated warheads in proximity to their own ships.

[Durandal]

America doesn't use nukes mostly because of political retaliation. Also, if the country we use nukes against has them as well, they'll fire back, and millions of civilians will die. It has nothing to do with the collateral damage from nukes.