Assimalating SW

[Knife]

So you don't think 16 centuries of technological progress could be squeezed into 2 or 3, given exhaustive instructions, perfect preservation of knowledge, worldwide communication, total cooperation from everyone on earth, and the abandonment of every other human endeavor save for said progress?

No, not really. You're underestimating the sheer sized of the disparity. The World Devistator resulted in the refinment of technology SW people have been using or based upon tech they've been using for 25000 years if not a bit longer.

And it's telling that you say that the Borg would drop everything else and study and experiment with this very tech for generations so they could get it right.

Sorry, the Borg are a bunch of loosers, but I have to believe that even they would figure out that the gains are not worth the investment of every single Borg and Borg asset for the next few centuaries for the tech.

More than likely, they'd store the info for when they had more of a realistic chance to screw around with it.

[HSRTG]

You're giving him complete knowledge of the location and purpose of every nut and bolt in every industrial complex from the iron mine to the glass factory, as well as exactly what they're made of, and how those materials were refined. And as soon as he's done absorbing this information, he and every other human being in his world can recall every last bit of it as surely as their own name.

Where the fuck do the Borg get this kind of knowledge from the World Devastator? There is a good chance the crew doesn't know this shit, and can only run the damn thing. Secondly, if you're talking about the World Devastator computer giving the borg this information, why the hell would that the memory include complete goddamn schematics? All the computer has to know is "Turn machine 3 on when X happens, when Y is done, turn machine 3 off". So where does this magic tour come from?

He now knows every last technical detail of that chip, he knows exactly what it's made of, he knows where those materials come from, he knows how you refined them, and he knows every bit as much as that about every tool used in the entire process.

Again, you're assuming the computer and crew knows all this. Answer me this: WHY THE FUCK WOULD THEY?

snip m4d w4nk

Would you stop humping this assumption that the all-mighty computer will know this stuff? Or that the crew will magically realize how it works, what it works on, and why it works? As far as I know, the maintenence guy doesn't know how or why the machine works, he just knows what it does and how to fix the machine. But if someone out there wants to correct me, go ahead.

Lastly, how the fuck will the Borg abandon most of what their doing? They just got hit hard by S8472, probably have several other brush-fires to attend to on their borders, and don't have leisure, art, and worship TO abandon. So where do the Borg get all the extra time? And resources?

[Solauren]

To be fair, World Devestators may in fact have that information in there computer to double check components built and so forth.

There computer/droid brains decide there own 'development' and growth and expansion, so no two devestators are the same.

So it's possible.

That wouldn't really help the Borg one bite however

[Cos Dashit]

Would the borg be able to use SW technology?

This was the question. You are all saying the same thing = No. Why argue about it?

[harbringer]

Actually in a debate like this there are two questions one implied the other stated. Yes everyone here understands that a borg drone could pick up a blaster and use it (though it would not be something they would do without a specific order drones dont act like that). Thus a borg drone or the collective as a whole once they understood how it worked could use SW tech IF they possesed it.

The implied question is the one everyone answered with no, that through assimilation the borg cannot somehow equalize in any meaningful way the technical disparity that exists. This is as much psychological as it is technical - people with the correct background DO NOT NEED information on basic technology they already understand it works in some cases they don't even need to know why eg. "daddy why is the sky blue" "well son because it is, it would be silly if it were green". To a martian whose sky is red (if they existed) it would be unnatural and would merit investigation.

An engineer somewhere knows but is unlikely to be assigned to a starship as it is already SUPPOSED to work he does not need to be there for it to work. Thus the basic knowledge - the gap if you will between the basics and a turbolaser just arn't present, not even in a devastator.

[LordShaithis]

No, not really. You're underestimating the sheer sized of the disparity. The World Devistator resulted in the refinment of technology SW people have been using or based upon tech they've been using for 25000 years if not a bit longer.

Who gives a shit how long it's been in use? Your goddamn Camaro wouldn't be any more advanced in the year 27,006 than it is now.

And it's telling that you say that the Borg would drop everything else and study and experiment with this very tech for generations so they could get it right.

They will if they have even the least hint of a clue, given what the technology can potentially do for them.

Sorry, the Borg are a bunch of loosers, but I have to believe that even they would figure out that the gains are not worth the investment of every single Borg and Borg asset for the next few centuaries for the tech.

Even a partial implementation of the technology would make them more powerful than anything in their home galaxy, this side of Q. Spending a few hundred years repeatedly building up and then throwing out nearly their entire industrial base as they progress is a small price to pay.

Where the fuck do the Borg get this kind of knowledge from the World Devastator?

The WD takes in raw material, builds itself up, and then builds ships, correct? Thus it has to know what it's building, and everything required to do so.

[HSRTG]

If you only have the inclination to rebut the first argument I put up, then rebut this one.

Lastly, how the fuck will the Borg abandon most of what their doing? They just got hit hard by S8472, probably have several other brush-fires to attend to on their borders, and don't have leisure, art, and worship TO abandon. So where do the Borg get all the extra time? And resources?

Who gives a shit how long it's been in use? Your goddamn Camaro wouldn't be any more advanced in the year 27,006 than it is now.

No, but he never said it was the same goddamn Camaro. Get this through your head: the engine will run on different things, might even work on more advanced principles. Similarly, if you took a jet from today (with appropriate instruments) into the world of 1911, the same principles are there, but damned if they can build the thing.

Even a partial implementation of the technology would make them more powerful than anything in their home galaxy, this side of Q. Spending a few hundred years repeatedly building up and then throwing out nearly their entire industrial base as they progress is a small price to pay.

Of course, assuming the WD has complete blueprints, schematics, and the Borg can make sense of them. But what about every space-faring race that can be assimilated that's near them? The Borg do not have infinate energy and resources, and it appears that most of those go into the war machine. So what happens when they have to scrap their factories?

The WD takes in raw material, builds itself up, and then builds ships, correct? Thus it has to know what it's building, and everything required to do so.

Or it knows that turning on machine X will give it weapon Y which does action Z. The WD does not need the exact schematics to turn on a machine. In addition, before you ask how it knows when something isn't working right, haven't you heard of test firing? If something isn't working right, all the computer has to do is send a droid to see if something is wrong with the fabricator. It doesn't even need a schematic for the fabricator! Just how to fix the thing.

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

Or it knows that turning on machine X will give it weapon Y which does action Z. The WD does not need the exact schematics to turn on a machine.

First of all, it would be highly inefficient for a WD to just have a "switch on machine X until Y number of parts are created, then turn on machine Z until B number of parts are created, then combine parts Y and B using machine C" sequence.

In addition, before you ask how it knows when something isn't working right, haven't you heard of test firing? If something isn't working right, all the computer has to do is send a droid to see if something is wrong with the fabricator. It doesn't even need a schematic for the fabricator! Just how to fix the thing

Yeah the WD can send a droid down to machine X to fix it if it breaks down, but how can you say that you don't need a schematic to fix it? That seems ludicrous! In order to fix something that's broken, you need to know how it works properly, and that includes a schematic! What happens if, when the droid gets down to machine X, it finds boards destroyed with wires and microchips everywhere? I'd bet a lot of money that that droid is gonna need a schematic to know where each replacement board, wire, and microchip goes! Either way, to fix every possible problem there's going to need to be schematics of all the machines, and the WD istself, somewhere on the ship.

[LordShaithis]

Lastly, how the fuck will the Borg abandon most of what their doing? They just got hit hard by S8472, probably have several other brush-fires to attend to on their borders, and don't have leisure, art, and worship TO abandon. So where do the Borg get all the extra time? And resources?

What exactly do you think they're doing, now that the 8472 war is over? Despite their fearsome local reputation, they're not particularly expansionist. You can't just wave your hands and mumble about "brush fires" and expect someone to believe that these imaginary skirmishes of yours are so distracting that the strongest industrial/military power in the Milky Way can't be bothered to pursue technology that would make them invincible by local standards.

No, but he never said it was the same goddamn Camaro. Get this through your head: the engine will run on different things, might even work on more advanced principles. Similarly, if you took a jet from today (with appropriate instruments) into the world of 1911, the same principles are there, but damned if they can build the thing.

I'm not even going to dignify another one of these bullshit strawman analogies with a response until one of you dumbfucks acknowledges the fact that completely assimilating a unit designed to fabricate finished products from scratch is different than dropping a single finished product in the lap of someone who has no fucking clue what it is or what it's made from and telling him to duplicate it himself.

Of course, assuming the WD has complete blueprints, schematics, and the Borg can make sense of them. But what about every space-faring race that can be assimilated that's near them?

Fuck 'em. Assimilate enough to replace any drones who die of old age or fall down the stairs, but the hell with chasing after their shitty technology. The SW stuff is obviously better than anything the Borg are going to find in their own galaxy.

The Borg do not have infinate energy and resources, and it appears that most of those go into the war machine.

The Borg are not particularly warlike. If they were prosecuting one continuous onslaught against the universe, the rest of the Milky Way would have been buttfucked ages ago.

So what happens when they have to scrap their factories?

When their available industrial capacity is diminished by their upgrade efforts, they'll be crushed in a brutal war of attrition by... the... uh... who, exactly?

Or it knows that turning on machine X will give it weapon Y which does action Z. The WD does not need the exact schematics to turn on a machine.

This is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard. The WD can build... say... a TIE, but the schematics and information required to build a TIE are found nowhere within it?

In addition, before you ask how it knows when something isn't working right, haven't you heard of test firing? If something isn't working right, all the computer has to do is send a droid to see if something is wrong with the fabricator. It doesn't even need a schematic for the fabricator! Just how to fix the thing.

The WD can construct another WD. Clearly it knows how to build everything involved.

I'm sorry kids, but this isn't the "assimilation = leet" fallacy or the "reverse-engineering is easy" fallacy. This is me stating that if you hand the largest and strongest Trek power the full knowledge of what amounts to a complete 'Star Wars industrial base in a can', and then wait a few goddamn hundred years, eventually they'll figure some things out.

[Knife]

I'm not even going to dignify another one of these bullshit strawman analogies with a response until one of you dumbfucks acknowledges the fact that completely assimilating a unit designed to fabricate finished products from scratch is different than dropping a single finished product in the lap of someone who has no fucking clue what it is or what it's made from and telling him to duplicate it himself.

*sigh* Its not a strawman, you dipshit. Your commiting a no limits fallacy with the Borg. Even if they have all the schematics, and all the manuals, and all the FAQs list, that doesn't automatically equal understanding of the thing.

If the fucking space vampires were smart enough to fucking comprehend that shit when they read it, they'd probably already be smart enough to have the information and incorporated it in some way.

The Borg are not particularly warlike. If they were prosecuting one continuous onslaught against the universe, the rest of the Milky Way would have been buttfucked ages ago.

THat's one interpertation. Another is that those boardering the Borg in their little fiefdom, know how to counter the threat, and thus have a balance of power there. The Borg, then by pass them and move on to 'softer targets' rather than fight a war with some one who can fight on equal terms with them.

I'm sorry kids, but this isn't the "assimilation = leet" fallacy or the "reverse-engineering is easy" fallacy. This is me stating that if you hand the largest and strongest Trek power the full knowledge of what amounts to a complete 'Star Wars industrial base in a can', and then wait a few goddamn hundred years, eventually they'll figure some things out.

Sorry kid, but it is a Borg wank. Considering the tech disparity, the industrial base, tech base, and resources. Yes, eventually they'll figure something out, but it won't be the SW ship to reap hell on the ST galaxy.

Besides, by your thought process, they already have those, they'd have to so that the rest of them could drop everything else and do nothing but play with SW tech for hundreds of years in the exclusion of everything esle.

Which they don't do. Look at the Omega partical. They had standing orders to investigate it if they came across it, but since they already knew about it and thought it was niffty, but couldn't make it or put it into practical use, they sat on the tech/knowledge until they could do something about it. Hence, standing orders to investigate when they detected it.

By your thought process, they'd still be back at Borg Space One, doing nothing but experimenting and fucking around with the Omega Partical for how ever long it took, no matter what else was going on in the galaxy, until they knew everything about it.

So, go ahead and show me why you think the Borg stupidiy/mentality would drop everything else and focus on this SW tech in exclusion of everything else, for hundreds of years?

[HSRTG]

What exactly do you think they're doing, now that the 8472 war is over?

Rebuilding their losses. Which is exactly what any militarily minded power would be doing. From what was seen, they will have taken casualties and if they have any mind at all they'll want to at least get back to pre-war strength.

Despite their fearsome local reputation, they're not particularly expansionist. You can't just wave your hands and mumble about "brush fires" and

That's why Voyager never discovered any civilization near the Borg that were advanced and had been under siege. That's why there were no advanced civilizations that the Borg couldn't assimilate if they really wanted to. Oh wait. There WERE civilizations holding their own against the Borg. So what happens when the Borg stop putting time and effort into the war, and leave these folks to their own devices?

expect someone to believe that these imaginary skirmishes of yours are so distracting that the strongest industrial/military power in the Milky Way can't be bothered to pursue technology that would make them invincible by local standards.

Stop strawmanning my position asshole. I never said that they wouldn't research it, but that they couldn't put 100% of all resources into it. If you can provide a quote where I said that the Borg would not put time and effort into researching it, by all means, I'll concede that I put up one dumbass position.

I'm not even going to dignify another one of these bullshit strawman analogies with a response until one of you dumbfucks acknowledges the fact that completely assimilating a unit designed to fabricate finished products from scratch is different than dropping a single finished product in the lap of someone who has no fucking clue what it is or what it's made from and telling him to duplicate it himself.

Yes, it's different. But how will the Borg figure out what each machine does, what powers everything, and why it works? I gotta look up debate fallacies after I post this. I'm sure there's one or two in there.

Fuck 'em. Assimilate enough to replace any drones who die of old age or fall down the stairs, but the hell with chasing after their shitty technology. The SW stuff is obviously better than anything the Borg are going to find in their own galaxy.

And what happens when everyone realizes the Borg abruptly stopped everything but small maintenence things? Anyone with sense is going to realize something BAD is going on. And what happens when they send scouts into the Borg territory and find out a MASSIVE R&D project is going on? Hmm? And don't tell me these people'll simply thank their lucky stars (though they might for a bit), I always want to know the why of an action, not just that it happens. And what can you bet that the other sentient races around them are going to wonder why the Borg abruptly stopped everything.

The Borg are not particularly warlike. If they were prosecuting one continuous onslaught against the universe, the rest of the Milky Way would have been buttfucked ages ago.

That's why their mission is not to assimilate everything, everyone, and weren't willing to go back in time to fuck Earth up just because they lost one cube. Oh wait.

This is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard. The WD can build... say... a TIE, but the schematics and information required to build a TIE are found nowhere within it?

Yup the schematics are in it. Just like the complete schematics to every part of every vehicle are in every factory of the world. No, wait, their not. It doesn't take a schematic at a factory to build a part. All it takes are a few machines doing their jobs. Dumbass.

The WD can construct another WD. Clearly it knows how to build everything involved.

Or it knows that when it turns certain machines on, something neat pops out.

I'm sorry kids, but this isn't the "assimilation = leet" fallacy or the "reverse-engineering is easy" fallacy. This is me stating that if you hand the largest and strongest Trek power the full knowledge of what amounts to a complete 'Star Wars industrial base in a can', and then wait a few goddamn hundred years, eventually they'll figure some things out.

Yes this is both those fallacies. Hooray for the Omega Particle, providing more examples of stellar Borg drop-everything-and-research-the-neat-thing uberness.

[RedImperator]

Here's the problem with assuming that since a WD can make anything (let's call it a widget for now) from raw material to finished product, the Borg, having assimilated a WD, can now also make widgets:

The World Devestator is nothing more than a mobile factory complex, presumably full of machines for making other machines. For simplicity's sake, let's just imagine that there's a device inside called a widget maker, into which you dump raw ore and out of which comes a finished widget. The question is can the Borg, seeing a widget maker in action, make a widget? The answer is, only if they can build a widget maker, and considering the technological disparity between the Borg and the Empire, that's extremely unlikely. Ah, but, you say, the WD also knows how to make a widget maker from raw materials. But in order to do that, the WD needs to manufacture specialized parts. Say the widget maker needs a widget of its own to operate. Now the Borg are in a Catch-22. They need a widget maker to make widgets, but they need widgets to make a widget maker. It's something of a chicken and egg paradox for the Borg. It's not for the Empire, because they can manufacture a WD with their existing industrial base, and then the WD can reproduce on its own.

To take an analogy, imagine a Medieval prince in the possession of the complete schmatics, including step-by-step assembly instructions for all important components directly from raw material, of Henry Ford's entire industrial operation, from his iron mines to the last sprocket and cog on the assembly line, as well as all the necessary schematics for building a Model T. Furthermore, there are instructions for refining gasoline, processing rubber, making windshield glass, the Bessemer process, all of it. Furthermore, by some magic, he acquires a team of industrial and construction engineers fully qualified to run and maintain Ford's operation. Could that prince then begin manufacturing cars? No--because the infrastructure upon which Ford depended when he built his operation in the first place doesn't exist and couldn't be built in a reasonable time frame. The Prince might learn a lot of useful things about engineering nobody knew before, and he might be able to have his wise men or whatever deduce new physical principles from the schmatics, but he won't be able to build a single car.

Likewise, the Borg with the contents of a WD's computer core assimilated may learn an awful lot. It's impossible to say how much Treknology is capable of that they just haven't thought of yet (the analogy here is the Romans and gunpowder--well within their capabilities, but they never even attempted it because it never occured to anyone you could make explosive powder out of sulfur, saltpeter, and charcoal). They might learn new physical principles, and might be able to guess more. Since they know certain things are possible they didn't before, they'll be able to focus new research better. But they won't be able to start cranking out TIEs and turbolasers. That's beyond their capabilities even with an instruction manual.

[Darth Wong]

You're not "taking the guy through Detroit" for a day. You're giving him complete knowledge of the location and purpose of every nut and bolt in every industrial complex from the iron mine to the glass factory, as well as exactly what they're made of, and how those materials were refined.

The Borg Queen explained to 7 of 9 that something is actually lost during the assimilation process, which is why 7 of 9 was not re-assimilated when captured. So your assumption of 100% knowledge transfer is flawed, even assuming they can somehow survive an encounter with a World Devastator long enough to somehow breach its shields, and then board it, and then try to assimilate it.

[Manhatten Project]

You are pathetic even debating known fact, or topics that have already been settled.

[Stark]

What?

[HSRTG]

You are pathetic even debating known fact, or topics that have already been settled.

Who are you typing at? Darth Wong? It helps to use the quote feature.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

You are pathetic even debating known fact, or topics that have already been settled.

Who the fuck are you flaming?

[LordShaithis]

The Borg Queen explained to 7 of 9 that something is actually lost during the assimilation process, which is why 7 of 9 was not re-assimilated when captured. So your assumption of 100% knowledge transfer is flawed, even assuming they can somehow survive an encounter with a World Devastator long enough to somehow breach its shields, and then board it, and then try to assimilate it.

See nubs? This is a salient bit of information about Borg assimilation that has an impact upon the topic. As opposed to rambling on about the Omega particle, which we know they don't have complete knowledge of anyway.

So yes, as assimilation apparently implies a loss of information, I'll conceed that gobbling up a WD isn't going to give the Borg the kind of totally exhaustive knowledge they would need to have a shot at making headway.

And yes, to assimilate a WD in the first place, they'd have to somehow find it floating powerless and unguarded. Hence it's more an Act of Thread than a plausible scenario.

[Eleas]

Incidentally, I do not envy anyone looking to board a World Devastator. Certainly not the Borg, with their shown inventiveness at getting their asses handed to them. A vessel capable of casually eating a Star Destroyer would be a troublesome opponent even if you weren't being careful to take it intact.

[Knife]

The Borg Queen explained to 7 of 9 that something is actually lost during the assimilation process, which is why 7 of 9 was not re-assimilated when captured. So your assumption of 100% knowledge transfer is flawed, even assuming they can somehow survive an encounter with a World Devastator long enough to somehow breach its shields, and then board it, and then try to assimilate it.

See nubs? This is a salient bit of information about Borg assimilation that has an impact upon the topic. As opposed to rambling on about the Omega particle, which we know they don't have complete knowledge of anyway.

If you're done gobbling on Mikes nuts; perhaps you'd like to tell me how 'rambling' about the omega partical isn't related to your assertion. They obviously wanted to understand the omega partical, enough that they had standing orders to drop what their doing if they detect it and go take a look see.

But since they were doing other things besides a single minded hunt and study of the omega particle, it easily disproves your theory on how they'd treat a fucking WD.

[LordShaithis]

Blow me, dipshit. Searching the ENTIRE UNIVERSE for technology that may be out there SOMEWHERE is rather different than devoting resources toward the implementation of technology already assimilated.

And note that they did have a policy of dropping whatever they were doing to obtain the omega particle when it was detected. As opposed to, you know, putting ultimate power on the back-burner behind fighting imaginary "brush fires" or what the fuck ever.

[PayBack]

You are pathetic even debating known fact, or topics that have already been settled.

Who the fuck are you flaming?

I think he's talking about everyone discussing the topic lol

[Eleas]

I think he's talking about everyone discussing the topic lol

In which case he's trolling, not talking. Oh, the shock and surprise.

[Eframepilot]

Here's the problem with assuming that since a WD can make anything (let's call it a widget for now) from raw material to finished product, the Borg, having assimilated a WD, can now also make widgets:

The World Devestator is nothing more than a mobile factory complex, presumably full of machines for making other machines. For simplicity's sake, let's just imagine that there's a device inside called a widget maker, into which you dump raw ore and out of which comes a finished widget. The question is can the Borg, seeing a widget maker in action, make a widget? The answer is, only if they can build a widget maker, and considering the technological disparity between the Borg and the Empire, that's extremely unlikely. Ah, but, you say, the WD also knows how to make a widget maker from raw materials. But in order to do that, the WD needs to manufacture specialized parts. Say the widget maker needs a widget of its own to operate. Now the Borg are in a Catch-22. They need a widget maker to make widgets, but they need widgets to make a widget maker. It's something of a chicken and egg paradox for the Borg. It's not for the Empire, because they can manufacture a WD with their existing industrial base, and then the WD can reproduce on its own.

To take an analogy, imagine a Medieval prince in the possession of the complete schmatics, including step-by-step assembly instructions for all important components directly from raw material, of Henry Ford's entire industrial operation, from his iron mines to the last sprocket and cog on the assembly line, as well as all the necessary schematics for building a Model T. Furthermore, there are instructions for refining gasoline, processing rubber, making windshield glass, the Bessemer process, all of it. Furthermore, by some magic, he acquires a team of industrial and construction engineers fully qualified to run and maintain Ford's operation. Could that prince then begin manufacturing cars? No--because the infrastructure upon which Ford depended when he built his operation in the first place doesn't exist and couldn't be built in a reasonable time frame. The Prince might learn a lot of useful things about engineering nobody knew before, and he might be able to have his wise men or whatever deduce new physical principles from the schmatics, but he won't be able to build a single car.

Likewise, the Borg with the contents of a WD's computer core assimilated may learn an awful lot. It's impossible to say how much Treknology is capable of that they just haven't thought of yet (the analogy here is the Romans and gunpowder--well within their capabilities, but they never even attempted it because it never occured to anyone you could make explosive powder out of sulfur, saltpeter, and charcoal). They might learn new physical principles, and might be able to guess more. Since they know certain things are possible they didn't before, they'll be able to focus new research better. But they won't be able to start cranking out TIEs and turbolasers. That's beyond their capabilities even with an instruction manual.

I find it very hard to believe that the prince in the above scenario would be incapable of building a simple Model T given the schematics and personnel you provided to him. Sure, it might take up to a few decades, but the components of the Model T were not particularly complex - this isn't some 2005 Ford Explorer with microchip-controlled fuel injection and GPS navigation. It's not for nothing that the first automobiles were called "horseless carriages". With the proper instructions, the blacksmiths and other craftsmen of the time would be able to create all necessary parts, and putting together the actual vehicle from there would be easy.

[jegs2]

Observation: From what I've seen in the comic books, the WD is an automated factory/detroyer/mammoth ship that sucks up all kinds of stuff and spits out Imperial vessels. My assumption was that the "blueprints" for such vessels would have to be part of the WD's system. If that assumption is incorrect, please post the proper information.

Question: If that's the case, assuming the Borg somehow assimilated the thing, why wouldn't they be able to use the WD to suck up mass quantities and spit out said Imperial vessels without modifying a thing?