Could mechanical Vader beat ANYONE??

[Tsyroc]

I also figure that if Vader is going to have a weakness (ie softspot) it's going to be going up against his own children. They are they only people he cares about enough to lose some of the fury he needs to be at the top of his dark side game. He also doesn't know enough about either Luke (especially) or even Leia to get really pissed at them like he did with Padme and Obi-Wan, or even the Jedi in general.

[Jedi Guardian]

Do you remember the Jedi?

Jedi Quinlan Vos.

[Lukedanieljames]

correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't george lucas say in a rolling stones interview that vader was nothing more than a hencemen. Infact I remember something along the lines as Vader is the starwars universes ultimate failure or something. Anyway, George I believe was quite clear that Vader was nothing more than an old man in a costume, nothing special.

anyone remember this article?

[Stravo]

correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't george lucas say in a rolling stones interview that vader was nothing more than a hencemen. Infact I remember something along the lines as Vader is the starwars universes ultimate failure or something. Anyway, George I believe was quite clear that Vader was nothing more than an old man in a costume, nothing special.

anyone remember this article?

In the ANH commentray Lucas certainly makes the statement that Vader is just another of the Emperor's flunkies - a first among equals I think was his phrase. It was supposed to show how tragic Anakin had become in that he wanted to be the most powerful man in the galaxy and there he was in ANH jostling for position with a half dozen other sycophants. He also states that the duels in OT were essentially between a cripple and a half trained boy.

I think however from what we see in ESB there is a change in Vader's position and overall power as we see him strecth his muscles a bit in terms of power both politically and force wise.

[Lord Revan]

Well the official material (which Lucas has approved) makes him a powerfull Force user, so they counterdict and override any interviews in non SW sources as far as I know.

EDIT:Vader though is not any more special then any other of Palpatines henchmen some of whom are (like Vader) powerfull Force users.

this means that Vader has has no special status in the Empire, but it has nothing to do with his fighting or force abilities (which are shown to be sufficient to defeat Jedi in the Dark Lord)

[Lukedanieljames]

In the ANH commentray Lucas certainly makes the statement that Vader is just another of the Emperor's flunkies - a first among equals I think was his phrase. It was supposed to show how tragic Anakin had become in that he wanted to be the most powerful man in the galaxy and there he was in ANH jostling for position with a half dozen other sycophants. He also states that the duels in OT were essentially between a cripple and a half trained boy.

I think however from what we see in ESB there is a change in Vader's position and overall power as we see him strecth his muscles a bit in terms of power both politically and force wise.

unfortunately, our own interpretation of vaders stature or abilities in any of the movies is completely irrelevant. If George made it clear, not only in the interview ( I wasn't aware) and in a rolling stones article, in both cases he doesn't contradict himself, it is pretty clear what he believes (which is the only thing that matters)

If he says vader is nothing more than a cripple and a tragic figure, thats all he is, a flunkie jostling for a position of power under the eye of palpatine,

sad, but that is the word from God

[Surlethe]

So, if George Lucas says the second Death Star is 160 km in diameter, then is it really only 160 km in diameter, despite the onscreen evidence to the contrary?

[Lukedanieljames]

So, if George Lucas says the second Death Star is 160 km in diameter, then is it really only 160 km in diameter, despite the onscreen evidence to the contrary?

I believe that is true, if he explicitly states it several times in seperate mediums (article/documentary) etc. then i think we have to take his word

[Lord Revan]

unfortunately, our own interpretation of vaders stature or abilities in any of the movies is completely irrelevant. If George made it clear, not only in the interview ( I wasn't aware) and in a rolling stones article, in both cases he doesn't contradict himself, it is pretty clear what he believes (which is the only thing that matters)

If he says vader is nothing more than a cripple and a tragic figure, thats all he is, a flunkie jostling for a position of power under the eye of palpatine,

sad, but that is the word from God

I don't know the canonity of the DVD commentaries, but the Rolling Stones article is as far as I know non-canon and Dark Lord show that Vader is emotionally crippled and tragic figure while still being capable of defeating Jedi (this also explain his poor peformance against Luke Skywalker)

[Lukedanieljames]

unfortunately, our own interpretation of vaders stature or abilities in any of the movies is completely irrelevant. If George made it clear, not only in the interview ( I wasn't aware) and in a rolling stones article, in both cases he doesn't contradict himself, it is pretty clear what he believes (which is the only thing that matters)

If he says vader is nothing more than a cripple and a tragic figure, thats all he is, a flunkie jostling for a position of power under the eye of palpatine,

sad, but that is the word from God

I don't know the canonity of the DVD commentaries, but the Rolling Stones article is as far as I know non-canon and Dark Lord show that Vader is emotionally crippled and tragic figure while still being capable of defeating Jedi (this also explain his poor peformance against Luke Skywalker)

Are you saying the creator of the universe cannot make a claim that is considered cannon in a rolling stones article?

[Lord Revan]

unfortunately, our own interpretation of vaders stature or abilities in any of the movies is completely irrelevant. If George made it clear, not only in the interview ( I wasn't aware) and in a rolling stones article, in both cases he doesn't contradict himself, it is pretty clear what he believes (which is the only thing that matters)

If he says vader is nothing more than a cripple and a tragic figure, thats all he is, a flunkie jostling for a position of power under the eye of palpatine,

sad, but that is the word from God

I don't know the canonity of the DVD commentaries, but the Rolling Stones article is as far as I know non-canon and Dark Lord show that Vader is emotionally crippled and tragic figure while still being capable of defeating Jedi (this also explain his poor peformance against Luke Skywalker)

Are you saying the creator of the universe cannot make a claim that is considered cannon in a rolling stones article?

no (and it's canon with just one "n") only stuff licensed by Lucasfilm is consired canon regardless of who said it.

[Cos Dashit]

As to the final fight where he defeats Vader, I find that hard to explain his victory except for the fact he was fighting for the life of his sister, giving him greater motivation.

It's not hard to explain. Luke channeled the Dark Side and it made him much more powerful. That was raw fury he was using at the end. Vader was quite simply overwhelmed. Luke went from challenging opponent to unstoppable killing machine in a matter of seconds and Vader simply could not compensate in time and his defenses were battered down.

When you say that Luke channeled the Dark Side, do you mean he let his emotions get in the way of clear, lucid thought? If he did switch sides temporarily (which I think he did), Vader should have been expecting it because his goal the whole time was to get Luke to flip-flop.

I like the raw fury bit, he did indeed demonstrate the proper lightsaber wood-chopping technique.

When he did channel the dark side, he made up for it in the end by throwing down his Saber.

[Lukedanieljames]

As to the final fight where he defeats Vader, I find that hard to explain his victory except for the fact he was fighting for the life of his sister, giving him greater motivation.

It's not hard to explain. Luke channeled the Dark Side and it made him much more powerful. That was raw fury he was using at the end. Vader was quite simply overwhelmed. Luke went from challenging opponent to unstoppable killing machine in a matter of seconds and Vader simply could not compensate in time and his defenses were battered down.

When you say that Luke channeled the Dark Side, do you mean he let his emotions get in the way of clear, lucid thought? If he did switch sides temporarily (which I think he did), Vader should have been expecting it because his goal the whole time was to get Luke to flip-flop.

I like the raw fury bit, he did indeed demonstrate the proper lightsaber wood-chopping technique.

When he did channel the dark side, he made up for it in the end by throwing down his Saber.

I disagree honestly, I believe he mustered up something deep down to protect his friends and family, not going to the darkside, but fighting for a reason, he already was, but it was reborn

[Lukedanieljames]

I don't know the canonity of the DVD commentaries, but the Rolling Stones article is as far as I know non-canon and Dark Lord show that Vader is emotionally crippled and tragic figure while still being capable of defeating Jedi (this also explain his poor peformance against Luke Skywalker)

Are you saying the creator of the universe cannot make a claim that is considered cannon in a rolling stones article?

no (and it's canon with just one "n") only stuff licensed by Lucasfilm is consired canon regardless of who said it.

wouldn't the owner of lucasfilm have the ability to say what he wants and have it considered canon, only his employees or representatives would ahere to that rule??

[Lord Pounder]

Are you saying the creator of the universe cannot make a claim that is considered cannon in a rolling stones article?

no (and it's canon with just one "n") only stuff licensed by Lucasfilm is consired canon regardless of who said it.

wouldn't the owner of lucasfilm have the ability to say what he wants and have it considered canon, only his employees or representatives would ahere to that rule??

He specifically employs people to make canon decision for him, . Lucas is oft know for spouting verbal shite in interviews and changing his idea's regularily.

[Lord Revan]

wouldn't the owner of lucasfilm have the ability to say what he wants and have it considered canon, only his employees or representatives would ahere to that rule??

rule is that because the world isn't 100% honest, so defining canon as only stuff that lucasfilm has approved prevents anyone from saying that Lucas said this or Lucas said that about SW if Lucas really wanted Vader to be no more powerfull then a no name stormtrooper he would disapprove stories that made him stronger then that (which he so hasn't done)

Vader is emotionally crippled (even hearing the name Naboo is too much for him), a tragic figure (he killed his own wife for fuck sake), yet he can defeat Jedi.

I fail to see why cripple must mean physically cripple.

[Cos Dashit]

I disagree honestly, I believe he mustered up something deep down to protect his friends and family, not going to the darkside, but fighting for a reason, he already was, but it was reborn

Mustering something from deep down about his family would be considered emotional. Only Sith use emotions when it comes to combat. Jedi, under all circumstances, are supposed to be calm when fighting. Luke definately wasn't calm in RotJ, his emotions were clearly visible and that is a Sith tendancy.

Although many Jedi in the films let their emotions out when fighting. Yoda always tries to tell his Jedi to let go of their feelings.

[Stravo]

I disagree honestly, I believe he mustered up something deep down to protect his friends and family, not going to the darkside, but fighting for a reason, he already was, but it was reborn

Mustering something from deep down about his family would be considered emotional. Only Sith use emotions when it comes to combat. Jedi, under all circumstances, are supposed to be calm when fighting. Luke definately wasn't calm in RotJ, his emotions were clearly visible and that is a Sith tendancy.

Although many Jedi in the films let their emotions out when fighting. Yoda always tries to tell his Jedi to let go of their feelings.

Guys, Palpatine clearly tells Luke - "Your hate has made you powerful." when he stands over Vader and look at the expression on Luke's face. That is pure anger. The novelization also clearly explains that Luke lost his temper and just went in a frenzy at Vader.

Luke was clearly channeling the dark side when he defeated Vader. That does not mean that Luke turned to the darkside. Obviously a decision needs to be made to start down the dark path. For Anakin it was killing Dooku that made him Sith material. For Luke it would have been killing his defensless father.

Let's remember that Obi Wan also channeled the dark side in his duel with Maul when he went at him after Qui Gon's death. That anger allowed Maul to open a channel between them and toss the padawan aside with a force push. So there are examples of Jedi turning to anger and using the dark side - that does not mean they join the dark side. It takes a little more than dipping your toes in the pool to make you turn.

Luke chose not to kill his father and so returned to the light once and forever (FUCK Dark Empire)

[Cos Dashit]

So the Jedi can cheat a bit? They can use some Dark techniques, without really going down the Dark Path?

The only Jedi I can remember in the movies not using emotions was Yoda in RotS.

[Lukedanieljames]

Vader is emotionally crippled (even hearing the name Naboo is too much for him), a tragic figure (he killed his own wife for fuck sake), yet he can defeat Jedi.

I fail to see why cripple must mean physically cripple.

A few things, first I don't buy that answer. He is in a suit for a reason, he is obviously physically damanged, hence the breathing and mask and all sorts of buttons. We know that there are mechanical components going into his spine (ROTJ force lightning scene of his skeleton)

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cripple

this is the discription of crippled, it clearly depicts exactly what vaders physical problems are. If two combatents are fighting and someone says,

"That guy is crippled!"

how many times would you think, "ah he's sensitive..he's been through a lot"

more likely you are going to think of his physical condition, which is supported through his suit AND the dictionary depiction.

[Cos Dashit]

You can be crippled both emotionally and physically.

[Stravo]

So the Jedi can cheat a bit? They can use some Dark techniques, without really going down the Dark Path?

The only Jedi I can remember in the movies not using emotions was Yoda in RotS.

No, not at all. They still pay a price. Luke almost kills his father - Obi Wan would have been killed because his inexperience in acting from anger allows Maul to use a simple force push on him.

Remember what Yoda tells Luke in ESB. The Dark side is quick to join you in a fight. It helps you in battles but hinders you in other ways. By acting on his anger Luke was able to defeat his father but it was not his intention to defeat him in that way, the same with Obi Wan. The Dark side made them stronger and faster (note Obi Wan's skill increase in the final portion of the duel where he is able to damage Maul's saber and put him on the floor compared to the earlier portions of the duel where Maul treats Obi Wan like an annoyance.) for the fight but that's not what Jedi are about.

Qui Gon after all was holding his own againt Maul using the light side and Mace defeated Sidious using the light side. But its silly to think that an untrained or inexperienced Jedi doesn't lose his temper every once in awhile. Obi Wan did and he didn't get reprimanded for it. So I think its a sort of expected thing that they get angry once in a while. It becomes a problem when they are ruled by their passions as the Jedi claim the Sith are.

In fact you can argue that the OT's near obsession with the Darkside and falling to it is an endresult of Anakin's fall. We don't hear any warnings to Anakin throughout his training of anger and passions. It is Yoda's training to Luke that emphasizes how bad it is to give in to anger because they got burned with Anakin and didn't want his near clone (Luke) to fall down the same path. So they build up this utter taboo about getting angry and acting aggresively for Luke to avoid any chance of him falling.

And there I've gone all long winded on this topic as I tend to do.

[Lord Revan]

in EU Vader can defeat Jedi regardless of the impants (actually it's major plot point in Dark Lord), though these Jedi had no personal connection to.

Yet when we come to stuff he has personal connection to (aka stuff that Anakin Skywalker had personal connection to), he breaks down mentally

the main reason Tatooine was such a good hideout for Obi-wan is that Vader can never visit it (hell like I said before he can't even hear the Naboo without breaking), how do you such a man would be if h had fight his own son.

[PayBack]

As to the final fight where he defeats Vader, I find that hard to explain his victory except for the fact he was fighting for the life of his sister, giving him greater motivation.

It's not hard to explain. Luke channeled the Dark Side and it made him much more powerful. That was raw fury he was using at the end. Vader was quite simply overwhelmed. Luke went from challenging opponent to unstoppable killing machine in a matter of seconds and Vader simply could not compensate in time and his defenses were battered down.

Whilst I'd agree that explains the greater part of it, I still believe the fact Vader didn't want to kill Luke had some bearing on his loss. When Anakin vented his fury on Obi, Obi used his skill to hold his own until an opportunity presented itself to take Anakin down. I also suspect Vader has fought angry jedi before. But then being an Vader fan it might be that I WANT to believe there's more to it

Oh and in regard to the comment about Vader being nothing special... there was also a more recent comment made (after the prequals) that Star Wars was the story of Darth Vader... which makes him seem just a bit special.

[Lord Revan]

Oh and in regard to the comment about Vader being nothing special... there was also a more recent comment made (after the prequals) that Star Wars was the story of Darth Vader... which makes him seem just a bit special.

for the story, the same way as the main characters of Medstar dualogy are special in those books dispate being nothing special in organization of the Grand Army of the Republic.