Would Vader have defeated Palpatine?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2006-02-14 06:50pm

In the event that the twins either died or are lost during the period between ROTS and ANH would Vader have been able to eventually defeat Palpatine or would he have been the perpetual henchmen under Palpatine's shadow. And playing towards the odd Sith psychology - would Palpatine have stood for Vader being a permanent lap dog and gotten rid of him?

I'm hoping the EU might have glimpses of some of Vader's plans to get rid of Palpatine or at the very least try to rise out from under the Emperor's shadow. Dark Lord certainly implies that Palpatine expects Vader to try. Yet at the same time ROTS novelization implies that on a raw power level Anakin could never become more powerful than Palpatine after his injuries.

LongVin · Post by **LongVin** » 2006-02-14 07:02pm

Palpatine might expect it but he won't allow it. Also when you think about it Palpatine does not need an apprentice anymore he has already planned to clone himself repedeately.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-02-14 07:16pm

Dark Lord definitly hints that Palpatine was preparing to not die like his master and that Vader was planning the eventual disposing of Palpatine. Though RoTS says he's not as powerful as Anakin, Dark Lord does a good roundabout that it was much more psychological.

Not much else of that time period is given.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-02-14 07:26pm

Note also that a lack of raw Force potential doesn't immediately mean that Vader could not have defeated Sidious. It's unlikely that every single apprentice was more powerful than his master in the Sith's millenia of Rule of Two existence.

Still, Sidious intended Vader and him both to live forever, perpetuating their Sith-ruled Empire for the closest thing to eternity he could achieve.

Cos Dashit · Post by **Cos Dashit** » 2006-02-14 07:43pm

I do not think that Vader would have fought back if his children were dead. He wouldn't have a reason to fight, would he?

His life was pretty dandy before Luke showed up. High rank, enough respect to choke people, being the emperor's right hand man.

If he did fight back, he would surely perish. At any point post-injury, he was far weaker than the Emperor.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-02-14 07:56pm

Cos Dashit wrote:I do not think that Vader would have fought back if his children were dead. He wouldn't have a reason to fight, would he?

His life was pretty dandy before Luke showed up. High rank, enough respect to choke people, being the emperor's right hand man.

If he did fight back, he would surely perish. At any point post-injury, he was far weaker than the Emperor.

It's true that he wouldn't have fought back for some time. His will was broken; he wouldn't have had the incentive to stand up for himself again were it not for Luke's appearance.

However, he's encouraged to find ways to destroy his master. Darth Sidious himself encouraged him to do so! A stand-up fight wouldn't be the only way to destroy his master. Recall that Sidious killed Plagueis in his sleep. There are yet other ways to accomplish this.
The Sith dichotomy trust and distrust, loyalty and disloyalty, honesty and suspicion is quite fascinating.

I'd like to add that I recall that Dark Lord mentions that Sidious maintained his apprentice for several reasons that do not involve succession. For one, it's a tribute to Darth Bane's ideas and teachings. For another, having the prophecied Chosen One as a corrupted trophy is the ultimate insult to the Jedi Order, even after their destruction. Yet another is a practical consideration: having Vader around to handle the Empire leaves Sidious' hands free to focus on his studies toward achieving immortality.
It can also be inferred that having two prevents stagnation. It keeps them both on their toes.

Jedi Guardian · Post by **Jedi Guardian** » 2006-02-14 10:51pm

This is very interesting, I think that for over 1,000 years there would be an evil Empire and Vader and Sidious would be old and decripled teaching more people the ways of the Dark Side. Then there would be another chosen one who would be born with amazing powers but growing up thinking that he was wierd. Sooner or later the Emporer would find his exsisting and chase him. Learning that he is a great child of a great Jedi from 1,000 years ago, he learns to use his powers by using the lost holocrons and spirits of the ancient Jedi. Later he would destroy Vader and Palpatine, and so a new Star Wars era is born! If that doesn't happen, then the whole galaxie's screwed.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2006-02-14 10:54pm

Bullshit.

In Dark Lord, at the end, Vader was already planning on one day finding and apprentice and disposing of the Emperor and ruling the Empire.

Luke was merely the best on to come along, and bonus, it's his kid.

He had other apprentices, and any one of them would have made a find Sith.

The Proteactor of Justice, at least one retired Imperial Naval Admiral, Shiria Bree/Lumiya, and several others all come to mind.

Vader was probably waiting for the Death Star to deal with the Rebellion so he could just frag Byss and be done with it

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-02-15 01:23am

Well he had a perfect oppotunity in ROTJ when Luke swings his light sabre at the Emperors head... had Vader hesitated half a second before intercepting it, he would have become the Master.

loomer · Post by **loomer** » 2006-02-15 02:20am

Of course, in order to stop Vader becoming nought but a henchman, Palpatine encouraged Prince Xizor and gave him somewhat similar power, creating a power struggle between the two that would anger Vader.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2006-02-15 02:32am

Ghost Rider wrote:snip. Though RoTS says he's not as powerful as Anakin, Dark Lord does a good roundabout that it was much more psychological.

Not much else of that time period is given.

I would suggest that Dark Lord is more correct given the manner of death of Admiral Ozzel.

Lone_Prodigy · Post by **Lone_Prodigy** » 2006-02-15 02:33am

Jedi Guardian wrote:This is very interesting, I think that for over 1,000 years there would be an evil Empire and Vader and Sidious would be old and decripled teaching more people the ways of the Dark Side. Then there would be another chosen one who would be born with amazing powers but growing up thinking that he was wierd. Sooner or later the Emporer would find his exsisting and chase him. Learning that he is a great child of a great Jedi from 1,000 years ago, he learns to use his powers by using the lost holocrons and spirits of the ancient Jedi. Later he would destroy Vader and Palpatine, and so a new Star Wars era is born! If that doesn't happen, then the whole galaxie's screwed.

Erm..... what???

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-02-15 02:36am

PayBack wrote:Well he had a perfect oppotunity in ROTJ when Luke swings his light sabre at the Emperors head... had Vader hesitated half a second before intercepting it, he would have become the Master.

Vader believed he needed Sidious' help in turning Luke to the Dark Side, that's all.

Jedi Guardian wrote:This is very interesting, I think that for over 1,000 years there would be an evil Empire and Vader and Sidious would be old and decripled teaching more people the ways of the Dark Side. Then there would be another chosen one who would be born with amazing powers but growing up thinking that he was wierd. Sooner or later the Emporer would find his exsisting and chase him. Learning that he is a great child of a great Jedi from 1,000 years ago, he learns to use his powers by using the lost holocrons and spirits of the ancient Jedi. Later he would destroy Vader and Palpatine, and so a new Star Wars era is born! If that doesn't happen, then the whole galaxie's screwed.

What are you, a lesser Supershadow?

Dark Lord states that Sidious believes that having more than two Sith is the mistake that led to the near-exinction of the Sith a millenia ago. Darth Bane rectified the mistake, and he won't repeat it.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2006-02-15 02:39am

Stravo wrote:In the event that the twins either died or are lost during the period between ROTS and ANH would Vader have been able to eventually defeat Palpatine or would he have been the perpetual henchmen under Palpatine's shadow. snip.

All depends on how cunning he is, Vader is well aware that Palpy can kill him with a short blast of lightning so he must be careful. I would say that in a fight, Vader would win, going from the movies and with the above qualifier.
As for power, I think that ROTS novelisation is only right for a while as Vaders limitations are in hs mind as much as anything, a matter pointed out in Dark Lord and confirmed with the death of Admiral Ozzel.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2006-02-15 02:58am

Despite the loss of his natural limbs Vader was still able to use the force to absorb blaster bolts with his mechanical arms in ESB. Could he not do absorb Palpatine's lightning in the same manner ? He was killed by lightning in ROTJ but then he was not in a position to catch Palapatines lightning since he was carrying the Emperor with his remaining arm.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-02-15 02:59am

The thoughts that run through Vader's mind concurrent with Shryne's slaying amounts to something of an epiphany, during which he regains a considerable amount of his former power.. or at least, the potential to regain it over the subsequent months and years.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2006-02-15 03:04am

Sarevok wrote:Despite the loss of his natural limbs Vader was still able to use the force to absorb blaster bolts with his mechanical arms in ESB. Could he not do absorb Palpatine's lightning in the same manner ? He was killed by lightning in ROTJ but then he was not in a position to catch Palapatines lightning since he was carrying the Emperor with his remaining arm.

I think the lightning has different properties to a blaster bolt. In Dark Lord Palpatine directly mentions to Vader that lightning could kill him and privatly says that Vader could never use it because of what he now is.

Tiriol · Post by **Tiriol** » 2006-02-15 03:48am

Stuart Mackey wrote:
Sarevok wrote:Despite the loss of his natural limbs Vader was still able to use the force to absorb blaster bolts with his mechanical arms in ESB. Could he not do absorb Palpatine's lightning in the same manner ? He was killed by lightning in ROTJ but then he was not in a position to catch Palapatines lightning since he was carrying the Emperor with his remaining arm.
I think the lightning has different properties to a blaster bolt. In Dark Lord Palpatine directly mentions to Vader that lightning could kill him and privatly says that Vader could never use it because of what he now is.

The Sith lightning does have different effects than a blaster bolt, but it is possible that Vader could have learned to deflect it or at least protect himself from it (I'm not saying that he could do it, since Palpatine fried him pretty well in RotJ, although it might also be due to the fact that Vader had been exhausted in his fight against the dark side rage -induced Skywalker and now wanted only to destroy the old bastard). And both Mace and Obi-Wan could deflect the Sith lightning with their lightsabres - Vader might be able to do the same.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-02-15 07:55am

Could he not do absorb Palpatine's lightning in the same manner ?

Probably not. Hey, it has to have SOME advantage over a simple blaster![/quote]

LongVin · Post by **LongVin** » 2006-02-15 11:35am

He might be able to do a Mace Windu and absorb it with his lightsabre.

Darth Kalgarath · Post by **Darth Kalgarath** » 2006-02-15 12:02pm

IIRC Sith lightning is not really electricity. It's more along the lines of the users hate and rage made manifest. Several posters here on the board have talked about how Force Lightning is driven by a desire to cause so much pain in an individual that they die. It would seem to me that Vader absorbing a blaster bolt is more akin to not being injured by a long fall than it is to deflecting or absorbing Sith Lightning. It seems to me like apples and oranges. One is energy from a normal weapon, the other is made from a mystical energy field that surrounds and binds life together.

Jedi Guardian · Post by **Jedi Guardian** » 2006-02-15 01:25pm

Lone_Prodigy wrote:Erm..... what???

What do youi mean "Erm.....what???" I stated what I think would happen if the Jedi twins were killed and then a whole new Star Wars story would begin or something like that would happen, what do you not understand? Oh, and I think that one question mark states how you feel not multiple ones.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2006-02-15 03:38pm

At any rate Vader certainly did not consider any of Sidious's potential plans for apotheosis to be viable, as he twice offered to overthrow Palpatine and rule the galaxy in his place together with someone else (first with his beloved wife Padmé in Revenge of the Sith and then later with their son Luke in The Empire Strikes Back), and the novelization of Return of the Jedi reveals that Vader's "final dream" was to "learn all he could of the dark power from this evil genius, to take that power from him, seize it and keep its cold light at his own core – kill the Emperor and devour his darkness, and rule the universe." If Vader did know of Palpatine's ability to reincarnate in his clones' bodies, he did not consider this an obstacle to his own rise to power, as by the time of the Battle of Endor in 39 GR, he was of the opinion that "soon, the old Emperor would die – " this at Vader's own hand, of course – "and though the galaxy would bend from the horror of that loss, Vader would remain to rule, with young Skywalker at his side."

Cos Dashit · Post by **Cos Dashit** » 2006-02-15 05:41pm

I have never read any of the novelizations; did Vader at any time doubt his own ability to overthrow the Emperor? How did he plan to do it, in his sleep like his master or in a straight up duel?

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-02-15 05:45pm

Stuart Mackey wrote:
I think the lightning has different properties to a blaster bolt. In Dark Lord Palpatine directly mentions to Vader that lightning could kill him and privatly says that Vader could never use it because of what he now is.

One of the reasons I don't like the prequels (ok I do, but not the way they change the OT for me)... to me Vader was very powerful, and eventually so was Luke... however the fact the Emperor was able to use force lightning made him appear to be on another level entirely.. uniquely powerful.

"Young fool. Only now, at the end, do you understand." I always took as meaning.. you thought you're powerful? You have no idea what powerful is.

However in the prequels force lightning isn't unique... meh I don't know.. just upsets how I've always seen things since I was 10

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Would Vader have defeated Palpatine?

Would Vader have defeated Palpatine?

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