Pellaeon's rank between CW and Endor. . .

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-02-14 05:58pm

I'm having some discussions over on Wookiepedia regarding Pellaeon's order to retreat at Endor and it would help me to know how long he was a Captain before Endor, if that is known.

I know that his first CO position was in the Clone Wars commanding a Frigate, and he abandoned an Army on the planet's surface (in typical Pellaeon retreat fashion) and seems to have lost his position as CO after that point as he is next seen as an XO (albiet a Captain) aboard the Chimaera at Endor. Which brings me to my question; how long had Pellaeon been a Captain before Endor? Does he have more seniority than the other Captains despite having been an XO while they are COs? Or does it not matter because he was an XO and position is more important than rank in this case? I thought that he was only recently promoted (or "repromoted") to Captain at the time of Endor, while others claim he was in fact Captain for some time and outranked the other Captains at Endor by virtue of his seniority.

While Publius's posts here and articles on his site have helped alot with my arguments, if anyone can find a source that could clarify this it would be really helpful.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-02-14 06:03pm

well it's possible that he wasn't a captain during CW IIRC Lt Commander Needa is the CO of one of the ship in the Battle of Corusant (IIRC it was a Carrack-class ship)

also when the CO of the Chirmaera died Pallaeon became the new CO

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-02-14 06:08pm

Lord Revan wrote:well it's possible that he wasn't a captain during CW IIRC Lt Commander Needa is the CO of one of the ship in the Battle of Corusant (IIRC it was a Carrack-class ship)

Yes Carrack or Dreadnaught I can't recall.

also when the CO of the Chirmaera died Pallaeon became the new CO

Yes, but he was already a Captain even when he was XO. Chimaera's CO was probably some sort of Admiral.[/i]

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-02-14 06:20pm

Nex, did you remove a reply by Nebulax on the talk page? You can't do that to another debater, might get you banned*.

Or did you just write over his reply and not notice it?

(*Unless you're McEwok and you're removing "sensitive information", that is.

)

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-02-14 06:28pm

I must have wrote over without noticing it. He seems to have made his reply while I was typing my rebuttal to jSarek. When I copied and pasted my reply into the main bloc, I must have overwrote his post. I'll go apologize.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-02-15 03:57pm

(*Unless you're McEwok and you're removing "sensitive information", that is. )

Ugh. Now he's ranting that Pellaeon may have been a Rear Admiral because he supposedly promoted a Colonel to the rank of Major General (

) and that in Star Wars, Commander is a higher rank than Captain based off a few off the cuff remarks in the Bacta War and Truce at Bakura.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-02-15 04:33pm

Rear Admiral because he supposedly promoted a Colonel to the rank of Major General

Would naval officers have that kind of authority over Army officers?

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-02-16 08:15am

Commander is a higher rank than Captain based off a few off the cuff remarks in the Bacta War and Truce at Bakura.

I've seen this in several sources, but it doesn't seem to jibe with the movies. (Captain Piett commanded the Executor itself and got promoted to Admiral of the Fleet.)

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2006-02-16 01:26pm

piett became admiral after Admiral Ozzel was discharged...

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-02-16 03:18pm

VT-16 wrote:
Rear Admiral because he supposedly promoted a Colonel to the rank of Major General
Would naval officers have that kind of authority over Army officers?

That's what I said. I suggested he may have been informing Covell of the promotion rather than actually giving it.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-02-16 03:34pm

My experience with McEwok show he has no clue what he's talking about, but that he likes to namedrop RL ships to somehow prove a point.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-02-16 04:33pm

Is there any reason to believe that the Pellaeon in the CW comics was the same Pellaeon who later became the SC of the Empire? Apparently he looked quite old in the CW comic, despite the foggy window rule, I think this is just another Pellaeon. I'm sure that somewhere in say the US Navy there are two commanding officers with the same last name.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2006-02-16 04:46pm

Lazarus wrote:Is there any reason to believe that the Pellaeon in the CW comics was the same Pellaeon who later became the SC of the Empire? Apparently he looked quite old in the CW comic, despite the foggy window rule, I think this is just another Pellaeon. I'm sure that somewhere in say the US Navy there are two commanding officers with the same last name.

The same comic also portrays Supreme Chancellor Palpatine as of The Phantom Menace as looking the same as Supreme Chancellor Palpatine as of Attack of the Clones, despite the known and canonical differences in his appearance between those times.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2006-02-16 06:21pm

Pellaeon was addressed as 'Captain' and claimed to have command of a "battle fleet" at the Battle of Merson in "Bloodlines" (Republic No. 64), which is altogether appropriate, considering that he was a 29-year veteran of the naval service by that time (The Essential Guide to Characters states that Pellaeon entered the Academy "fifty years prior to the destruction of the first Death Star," i.e., in 15 BrS, whereas "Bloodlines" is set in 14 GR, 29 years later). The question of his rank at the time is somewhat muddled by the fact that, as the commander of the entire squadron, he should have been a courtesy commodore. Since Pellaeon was a seasoned veteran by that time and almost certainly a senior officer, he was probably a post captain acting as a courtesy commodore, and had only hoisted his broad pennant aboard the Acclamator rather than being her commanding officer (note that Darksaber indicates that the 900-meter-long Victory class Star Destroyer 13X was the smallest vessel that Pellaeon had commanded in years).

Apropos of that last thought, it bears mentioning that being captain of a ship or addressed as 'Captain' does not indicate that one has the rank of captain. At the risk of belaboring a tired point, 'Captain' is a title that has two meanings in naval usage: (1.) a commissioned officer with the rank and grade of captain, equivalent in rank to an army colonel (for the most part), and (2.) a courtesy title given to the commanding officer of a ship regardless of his or her actual rank and grade. In the Star Wars films, for example, Han Solo is frequently addressed or referred to in his capacity as master of the Millennium Falcon as 'Captain Solo' (the example is enriched by the Expanded Universe, which has pointed out that Solo's actual rank and grade was that of lieutenant prior to being cashiered from the Imperial Navy). Traditionally, an officer of the first kind was often called a 'post captain' to distinguish him from an officer of the second kind, the 'courtesy captain'.

The Essential Guide to Characters states that Pellaeon was "promoted to the command crew of the Star Destroyer Chimaera," but not as a member of the 'command triad' (the CO, XO, and CMC); he must have been stationed aboard as a department head, because only after his transfer aboard had he "worked his way up to second in command." The scribe confirms this sequence in The New Essential Guide to Characters (written in 62 GR), writing that Pellaeon was "transferred to the crew of the Imperial Star Destroyer Chimaera" and "by the time of the Battle of Endor, he had become the Chimaera's second in command.." Finally, the scholars write in the Star Wars Encyclopedia (written in 60 GR) that he had obtained "an appointment to the command crew of the Star Destroyer Chimaera," and that "over the years, he worked his way up to second-in-command, achieving the rank of captain."

If Pellaeon were a post captain or higher as of the Battle of Merson (which is almost certain), he was evidently demoted and blacklisted, worked for decades to restore his reputation, and eventually earned a second chance with his transfer to Chimaera, where he regained his post captaincy and was appointed executive officer; if this is the case, then Pellaeon must have had powerful friends indeed to avoid having been cashiered altogether. As it is, the fact that he was reduced from commanding squadrons to being certainly no more than a department head aboard a Star Destroyer is a profound statement of a lack of confidence in his leadership by his superiors – indeed, the sort of spectacular rebuke that ends officers' careers altogether – to say nothing of the severity of his demotion. In any case, it is certain that he was not a post captain when he was transferred to Chimaera.

As regards the devolution of command, the current regulations of the United States Navy state that if the fleet commander is killed or incapacitated in battle, command devolves provisionally upon the officer next in rank aboard the flagship until such time as the actual successor to command is able to take command (that being the senior line officer eligible for command at sea within the fleet or fleet subdivision). To wit, when Fleet Admiral Piett was killed, command immediately devolved upon the next senior officer on the flagship, his chief of staff, Admiral Chiraneau, who was very probably killed at the same time or shortly after, which would (in theory) pass command on to the next senior officer aboard Executor even down to the most junior ensign until the proper successor were able to take command. At Endor, this would have been Admiral Harrsk or the unknown commanding officer of the Chimaera, passing from each successor to the next senior officer regardless of which ship he or she were aboard. Pellaeon, being a post captain, would have assumed command after all of the flag officers and senior captains were killed or incapacitated; since the Dark Force Rising Sourcebook specifically mentions that Captain Dorja, the Commanding Officer, HIMS Relentless "almost refused to follow Captain Pellaeon when the junior officer announced that he was now in command of the Chimaera and was taking command of the fleet," it is unambiguous that he acted illegally by assuming command despite the presence of at least one senior line officer eligible for command at space who was neither dead nor incapacitated (i.e., Dorja, to say nothing of Grand Admiral Osvald Teshik).

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-02-16 08:36pm

Many thanks Publius.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-02-19 10:50am

Anyone have something that will conclusively destroy McEwok's delusion that Commander is a higher rank than Captain in the Imperial Starfleet? I have a distinct lack of resources with me that could debunk such a claim, and he balks at any attempt on my part to logically show him that this isn't so.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-02-19 02:11pm

Unless videotaped with George Lucas himself answering the questions, ME will never yield to outside logic.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-02-19 04:04pm

VT-16 wrote:Unless videotaped with George Lucas himself answering the questions, ME will never yield to outside logic.

Off-topic, but does that mean he accepts that the IH is a Star Destroyer considering in the deleted scene intros Lucas calls the IH a Star Destroyer?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-02-19 05:05pm

I think either he or someone else complained about "You can't use George Lucas as evidence that the IH is a Star Destroyer, because he called the Home One a Star Destroyer, too, and might have been mistaken."

I don't know, that seems like a very slippery slope to me. Though it would be hilarious if the HO was considered a kind of SD. >D

I do remember ME bitching about "Imperial Star Cruisers being bigger than Star Destroyers" (as per the ITW:OT) and that "they might have been referring to non-Imperial ships". Even though according to him, the Home One was not bigger than the other 1200m Mon Cal Star Cruisers and there have been no other large Rebel ship at that point in time (the OT). Unless you drag in the Bulwark, and that open up another debate about its size. *Rolls eyes*

Grasping for straws as much as possible.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-02-19 05:37pm

I was contemplating going in and reverting ME's doucebaggary in the "Commander" page, but I don't want to get into another edit war over there, I'm already trying to get the Pellaeon entry reverted.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-02-19 05:49pm

Has he actually stated any source that has commander being a higher rank than Captain? If not, revert it.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-02-19 08:47pm

Apparantly there's a quote in "The Bacta War" that refers to a Commander being ranked higher than Captain, and they use rank badges to make the distinction so you know it's about rank, not simply position.

atg · Post by **atg** » 2006-02-19 09:05pm

The Bacta War indeed states that.

I'll grab a page reference for you when I get back home but it's in referal to Captain Convarion(sp?), it seems more of a honor title though as he is refered to as captain throughout the book as well.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2006-02-19 09:30pm

The contention that a commander outranks a captain in the Imperial Navy is certainly an interesting one, considering that Captain Firmus Piett is known to have had at least two commanders serving beneath him when he was commanding officer of the Executor in The Empire Strikes Back; the Decipher CCG's Dagobah Expansion Set identified two officers aboard her, Commander Gherant (a "deck officer" who was "responsible for preventing unauthorized access to sensitive areas of the Empire's flagship" and was "hand-picked by Captain Piett") and Commander Brandei ("Technical Services Officer of the Fleet Support Branch" who was "responsible for keeping Executor's 12 TIE squadrons serviced and combat ready"). Why exactly would two commodores be assigned to a ship in clearly subordinate capacities? Especially when the Star Wars Encyclopedia has strongly indicated that Captain Piett himself was also captain of the fleet in addition to being flag captain?

Commander Brandei is particularly interesting, because his card ("*Commander Brandei") mentions he "just received transfer to Judicator," and he subsequently turns up in Dark Force Rising as Captain Brandei, commanding officer of the Judicator. Furthermore, the Dark Force Rising Sourcebook mentions (p. 43) that "Brandei was a senior officer who survived the Battle of Endor" and "his survival guaranteed his promotion, and the Judicator has been his ever since" (bold emphasis added). Commander Aban from Battle for the Golden Sun subsequently showed up in Dark Force Rising as Captain Aban, commanding officer of the Bellicose.

The Dagobah Expansion Set establishes that Captain Lorth Needa also has a commander serving under him in a clearly inferior capacity, namely Commander Nemet ("Logistics officer for the Avenger"). In The Hutt Gambit, Captain Soontir Fel gives orders to his navigator, Commander Rosk, and responds to his report by saying "Very well" (a bit of Naval etiquette with which landlubbers like McEwok are no doubt unfamiliar: an inferior never responds to a superior by saying "very well," that being the sole and exclusive right of a senior speaking to a junior) – to say nothing of the fact that his executive officer is Commander Toniv. In the same book, Captain Redlo Dovlis's second in command is also a commander

The Stele Chronicles mentions Tan Maarek Stele's promotion to the rank of commander, and subsequent promotion to the rank of colonel. Even allowing for the use of an Army/Marine title for a Naval Aviator, this clearly indicates that a Naval commander is in fact inferior in grade to a colonel, who is equal in grade to a post captain.

Furthermore, the suggestion that the Empire does not use the rank of commodore is fatuous, given that there are a few examples of Imperial commodores in the Expanded Universe, which McEwok is 'conveniently' forgetting. Commodore Bevven appears in a short sketch in the Imperial Sourcebook, Commodore Zuggs appears in both Rebellion and Lost City of the Jedi, Commodore Soleric is mentioned in Pirates & Privateers, and Commodore Dane Tizzin is mentioned in Stock Ships. One wonders what evidence McEwok thinks is "unambiguous" in treating commanders like commodores. He is, after all, a titan of intellectual honesty and rigor.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-02-19 11:23pm

NRS Guardian wrote:Off-topic, but does that mean he accepts that the IH is a Star Destroyer considering in the deleted scene intros Lucas calls the IH a Star Destroyer?

McEwok's too chickenshit to come up with his own theory that explains all the facts. All he does is try to poke holes and make nitpicks in other theories (Saxton's multi-tiered classifications of Star and non-Star warships, which is basically observed in numerous sources), or say "Well, that's certainly one interpretation, but there are other possibilities."

He, or one of the other TF.net retards did resort to the "Home One is a Star Destroyer argument" that VT-16 brought up. During one of my debates with him, he also tried to argue that the IH is dagger-shaped.