Would Vader have defeated Palpatine?

Cos Dashit · Post by **Cos Dashit** » 2006-02-15 05:57pm

I believe that force lighting was unique, at least in that era. The look on Yoda's face in RotS, pure shock when he saw the Force lightning coming toward him. I don't think he has ever seen or heard of anything like that before.

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-02-15 06:02pm

Palp + Dooku = not unique.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2006-02-15 06:17pm

Cos Dashit wrote:I believe that force lighting was unique, at least in that era. The look on Yoda's face in RotS, pure shock when he saw the Force lightning coming toward him. I don't think he has ever seen or heard of anything like that before.

That must be true. After all, it's not as if Yoda would remember easily negating it when Dooku weilded Force Lightning against him in the previous movie.

Cos Dashit · Post by **Cos Dashit** » 2006-02-15 06:20pm

Oh yeah,

embarassing.

Well I still think it was unique, and Palpatine must have taught Dooky. But Yoda did look incredulous when Palpatine shot it at him.

Spice Runner · Post by **Spice Runner** » 2006-02-15 06:50pm

To all those saying Vader could use his lightsaber to reflect the force lightning. Wasn't the reason that Mace Windu could do that because of the Vaapad style of fighting or Windus unique usage of the force which allowed him to channel the dark side through himself without having it effect him? I don't see how Vader could do that, being immersed in the dark side himself.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2006-02-15 06:56pm

Cos Dashit wrote:Oh yeah,

embarassing.

Well I still think it was unique, and Palpatine must have taught Dooky. But Yoda did look incredulous when Palpatine shot it at him.

...except the renegade Nightsister Mighella used it just fine before that, and long before this, Darth Malak had a hell of a lot of fun with it, as did his apprentice Darth Bandon. These are just off the top of my head.

The Prime Necromancer · Post by **The Prime Necromancer** » 2006-02-15 09:53pm

Spice Runner wrote:To all those saying Vader could use his lightsaber to reflect the force lightning. Wasn't the reason that Mace Windu could do that because of the Vaapad style of fighting or Windus unique usage of the force which allowed him to channel the dark side through himself without having it effect him? I don't see how Vader could do that, being immersed in the dark side himself.

Well, Obi-Wan used his saber to protect himself from Dooku's lightning in AotC. He doesn't practice Vapaad, does he?

Spice Runner · Post by **Spice Runner** » 2006-02-15 10:39pm

When did that happen? If I remember correctly, Obi-Wan tried to reflect the lightning but failed miserably. Then Anakin came to save his ass and ended up having his ass owned as well.

Spice Runner · Post by **Spice Runner** » 2006-02-15 10:59pm

Err...scratch that previous post. Looking back, I don't remember Obi-Wan ever facing force lighning from Count Dooku. They just dueled with sabers and Obi-Wan got his ass kicked. When Yoda arrived, Dooku unleashed force lightning. I may be wrong though. If anyone has screencaps it would be most helpful.

Karza · Post by **Karza** » 2006-02-16 03:39am

Spice Runner wrote:Err...scratch that previous post. Looking back, I don't remember Obi-Wan ever facing force lighning from Count Dooku. They just dueled with sabers and Obi-Wan got his ass kicked. When Yoda arrived, Dooku unleashed force lightning. I may be wrong though. If anyone has screencaps it would be most helpful.

Anakin charged Dooku first, and got fried by lightning and tossed aside. Then Dooku used lightning against Obi-Wan, who blocked it with his saber, and with negligible effort too, it seems. Then came the swordfight etc.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-02-16 08:12am

"Young fool. Only now, at the end, do you understand." I always took as meaning.. you thought you're powerful? You have no idea what powerful is.

It still means that. Dooku is an incredibly powerful Sith/Jedi Master in the old style. His kind is extinct in the era of the OT, and the Emperor is still quite unique. He's the most Force-powerful human in the universe, considering that Yoda is decrepit/dead.

Spice Runner · Post by **Spice Runner** » 2006-02-16 10:48am

Anakin charged Dooku first, and got fried by lightning and tossed aside. Then Dooku used lightning against Obi-Wan, who blocked it with his saber, and with negligible effort too, it seems. Then came the swordfight etc.

Interesting. That means that Obi-Wan may have been using a something similiar to Vaapad to channel the lightning or he may have been using some other method of deflection through the force. Then one has to wonder whether Vader had such an ability.

Cos Dashit · Post by **Cos Dashit** » 2006-02-16 04:41pm

Anguirus wrote:
"Young fool. Only now, at the end, do you understand." I always took as meaning.. you thought you're powerful? You have no idea what powerful is.
It still means that. Dooku is an incredibly powerful Sith/Jedi Master in the old style. His kind is extinct in the era of the OT, and the Emperor is still quite unique. He's the most Force-powerful human in the universe, considering that Yoda is decrepit/dead.

This may be a little off-topic, but what if Yoda became a Sith? Would he be in charge, or would Sidious? And if they did become a team, would the Jedi stand a chance at all?

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2006-02-16 04:45pm

Spice Runner wrote:
Anakin charged Dooku first, and got fried by lightning and tossed aside. Then Dooku used lightning against Obi-Wan, who blocked it with his saber, and with negligible effort too, it seems. Then came the swordfight etc.
Interesting. That means that Obi-Wan may have been using a something similiar to Vaapad to channel the lightning or he may have been using some other method of deflection through the force. Then one has to wonder whether Vader had such an ability.

Well since he just absorbed it into his saber, I'd wadger that he was merely using a Defense tactic taught him by either Qui Gon or Yoda. It seems from some of the EU to be a pretty standard defense tactics against Force Lightning.

Doctor Doom · Post by **Doctor Doom** » 2006-02-16 07:04pm

This may be a little off-topic, but what if Yoda became a Sith? Would he be in charge, or would Sidious? And if they did become a team, would the Jedi stand a chance at all?

What are you talking about? Do you mean if Yoda became a Sith during the events of RotS? Or do you mean becoming a Sith before becoming a Jedi Council Member, which happened several hundred years earlier?

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2006-02-16 07:18pm

In the novelization of Return of the Jedi, there is the following interesting passage:

Palpatine raised his spidery arms toward Luke: blinding white bolts of energy coruscated from his fingers, shot across the room like sorcerous lightning, and tore through the boy's insides, looking for ground. The young Jedi was at once confouned and in agony -- he'd never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the Force, let alone experienced it.

But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful -- the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they coursed over and into him, and he could only shrink before them, convulsed with pain, his knees buckling, his powers at ebb.

Cos Dashit · Post by **Cos Dashit** » 2006-02-16 07:48pm

Doctor Doom wrote:
This may be a little off-topic, but what if Yoda became a Sith? Would he be in charge, or would Sidious? And if they did become a team, would the Jedi stand a chance at all?
What are you talking about? Do you mean if Yoda became a Sith during the events of RotS? Or do you mean becoming a Sith before becoming a Jedi Council Member, which happened several hundred years earlier?

Let's say several hundred years earlier, so that Palpatine would be his apprentice.

Cos Dashit · Post by **Cos Dashit** » 2006-02-16 07:49pm

Publius wrote:In the novelization of Return of the Jedi, there is the following interesting passage:

Palpatine raised his spidery arms toward Luke: blinding white bolts of energy coruscated from his fingers, shot across the room like sorcerous lightning, and tore through the boy's insides, looking for ground. The young Jedi was at once confouned and in agony -- he'd never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the Force, let alone experienced it.

But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful -- the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they coursed over and into him, and he could only shrink before them, convulsed with pain, his knees buckling, his powers at ebb.

That's interesting, I'm confused as to why they wouldn't put his initial success in deflecting the Force-lightning in the film.

Spice Runner · Post by **Spice Runner** » 2006-02-16 08:13pm

Publius wrote:In the novelization of Return of the Jedi, there is the following interesting passage:

Palpatine raised his spidery arms toward Luke: blinding white bolts of energy coruscated from his fingers, shot across the room like sorcerous lightning, and tore through the boy's insides, looking for ground. The young Jedi was at once confouned and in agony -- he'd never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the Force, let alone experienced it.

But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful -- the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they coursed over and into him, and he could only shrink before them, convulsed with pain, his knees buckling, his powers at ebb.

Yeah, I completely forgot about that part from ROTJ. I remember a force absorb/deflect ability from the Jedi Knight games as well. I dont' know how high those count in canon.

But anyways, if Vader was such a powerful sith lord wouldn't he have the ability to simply deflect any lightning Sidious would throw against him, or is he hampered by his artificial limbs?

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2006-02-17 12:52am

Spice Runner wrote:
Publius wrote:In the novelization of Return of the Jedi, there is the following interesting passage:

Palpatine raised his spidery arms toward Luke: blinding white bolts of energy coruscated from his fingers, shot across the room like sorcerous lightning, and tore through the boy's insides, looking for ground. The young Jedi was at once confouned and in agony -- he'd never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the Force, let alone experienced it.

But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful -- the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they coursed over and into him, and he could only shrink before them, convulsed with pain, his knees buckling, his powers at ebb.

Yeah, I completely forgot about that part from ROTJ. I remember a force absorb/deflect ability from the Jedi Knight games as well. I dont' know how high those count in canon.

You see yoda do it twice: Against Dooku and against Palpy in the Senate.

But anyways, if Vader was such a powerful sith lord wouldn't he have the ability to simply deflect any lightning Sidious would throw against him, or is he hampered by his artificial limbs?

He is hampered by being a cyborg full stop. This is verified by the novel Dark Lord and by the fact that Vader was more or less killed by it in RotJ.

Spice Runner · Post by **Spice Runner** » 2006-02-17 10:29am

Alright, that's cleared up then.

I definately have to check out Dark Lord.

Medic · Post by **Medic** » 2006-02-18 03:38am

Cos Dashit wrote:Oh yeah,

embarassing.

Well I still think it was unique, and Palpatine must have taught Dooky. But Yoda did look incredulous when Palpatine shot it at him.

Is it me, or is Palpatine's most underrated power the ability to conceal himself in the force?

He lived a normal man consumed by the darkside for decades under the shadow of the Jedi and he can apparently equally hide his ability to draw upon the dark side of the force. Perhaps with Dooku, Yoda sensed him "building it up" and was ready whereas Palpatine was reading a blank... raising his hands for some fucked up reason... and zapping him out of the blue. Besides, once Yoda assumed a posture ready to fight, he easily caught Palpatine's lightning. (it was obvious Palpatine would blast him as for some reason, he didn't have his lightsaber at that moment)

On the other hand, it may just be Palpatine's ability to effortlessly tap the force that is part of his raw power as well -- when Yoda jumps at Palpatine at the end, he very reflexively just starts zapping.

Karza wrote:Anakin charged Dooku first, and got fried by lightning and tossed aside. Then Dooku used lightning against Obi-Wan, who blocked it with his saber, and with negligible effort too, it seems. Then came the swordfight etc.

But we know Obi-Wan, the straightest of arrows, doesn't practice Vapaad. IMO, Mace's style of fighting is erroneously given credit for his ability to merely defend against Sith lightning. More than likely, Obi-Wan -- a Master -- was privy to information on how to deal with it.

Anakin Skywalker, RoTS wrote:I know there's things they're not telling me about the force.

Anakin got burned by not being a Master -- literally.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2006-02-18 07:18pm

It could be that it takes Vaapad to actually reflect the lightning. Obi-wan was able to negate it, true. But all he did was dissipate the energy. Mace Windu actually reflected the attack. With far less effort than Yoda, in both AOTC and ROTS.

Cos Dashit · Post by **Cos Dashit** » 2006-02-18 07:25pm

Darth Yoshi wrote:Mace Windu actually reflected the attack. With far less effort than Yoda, in both AOTC and ROTS.

I don't know if you can say that Windu did it with less effort (at least in RotS). Mace Windu's face was strained, as was his voice, and he was yelling. When Yoda absorbed and reflected the lightning, his face was calm and Palpatine was the one that was freaking out.