Could mechanical Vader beat ANYONE??

[Cos Dashit]

A high midichlorian count does not a skilled Jedi make. Just because you have long fingers, does that mean you can be a skilled pianist? It requires practice, tuning, and concentration. This is why Tyrannus defeated Anakin so easily in AotC. He was more experienced.

[Stuart Mackey]

Anakin had the highest midi-colrian count ever seen. He was regarded by the Emperor to [have the potential to] be[come] more powerful than Yoda and himself. Thus we have a base line of power. In RotJ {novel}The Emperor is shown to be afraid of Lukes power.

Correction: Anakin had the highest midichlorian count recorded at that time in relation to Jedi files in existence at that time. Evidence midi-chlorian testing was actually being conducted and recorded prior to the Battle of Ruusan? Furthermore evidence that said records survived previous engagements including but not limited to the war with Exar Kun and the resulting damage to Ossus, in addition to the things Darth Revan and Darth Treya did effectively bringing to the order to its knees. Your unqualified generalization is not justified based on what you've brought forward.

Ask yourself these questions. You cannot prove a negative and the novels and movies are silent on such extended history, but they do clearly indicate that records were kept and that the Jedi had access to them and later so did the Sith. It is quite resonable to beleive that Qui-Gon, Palpatine ["Darth Vader will become more powerfull than either of us"] and Vader himself know what they are talking about.

All it indicates is where the various players in the days of the Galactic Empire considered things to stand, based on their perspective. From there knowing how things played out we have a rough idea of how things stood among them, but you can't just say Luke's the most powerful Jedi _ever_ with it. Unqualified generalizations require a lot more work to not be apocryphal then that.

Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were extinct, save one, who was the strongest of them all. His own son

SotE is a higher level of canon than a game. Moreover, you do not know what Vader knows or did not know or the Emperor for that matter. But lets let a G level bit of canon talk.

This truth: that he, the avatar of the light, Supreme Master of the Jedi order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
just-
didnt-
have it.

Palpatine was more powerfull than Yoda. And the RotJ novel, omnibus page 466 and 474, clearly states that Palpatine is afraid of Luke.
Also its pointless to talk about what knowldge was lost or was not lost, you cannot prove a negative.
Your argument is like saying that because we dont know everything about the Hittite army that they must be more powerfull than a modern army. Its a strawman in otherwords.

Addendum: Even then there is on screen evidence that pure potential doesn't automatically equate to power in the sense of being on a whole different level, ergo Tyrannus vs Anakin and Kenobi vs Vader. If pure potential was all there was to it, there was no way Anakin could have lost like he did, no? Seems as how Tyrannus handed Anakin his rear on a silver platter in AotC, he must not have been worth recruitng, huh? Or are you going to make a special case for the guy whose spent most of his life training to be a Jedi over the one who basically got accelerated 101?

WTF are you going on about?

In addition there are known to exist techniques that involved the user basically feeding of their victim, so that the stronger the victim was in the Force the stronger they were. These Malachor techniques however were likely effectively sealed and forgotten.

How does that invalidate canon? What does it have to do with Luke Skywalker?

[Stuart Mackey]

A high midichlorian count does not a skilled Jedi make. Just because you have long fingers, does that mean you can be a skilled pianist? It requires practice, tuning, and concentration. This is why Tyrannus defeated Anakin so easily in AotC. He was more experienced.

Yes, and? Its not nice to take something out of context.

[Cos Dashit]

Palpatine was more powerfull than Yoda.

What is your basis for this? Are you referring to the RotS battle in which Yoda loses?

[Stuart Mackey]

Palpatine was more powerfull than Yoda.

What is your basis for this? Are you referring to the RotS battle in which Yoda loses?

Yes, and the nature of that fight is eleborated on in the canon novel.

[Cos Dashit]

Just because you lose to someone once doesn't mean that they are better than you. Yoda was probably still saddened about the great Jedi Purge, if you recall right before the fight happened Palpatine atttempted to leave and get away from the Jedi Master.

[Stuart Mackey]

Just because you lose to someone once doesn't mean that they are better than you. Yoda was probably still saddened about the great Jedi Purge, if you recall right before the fight happened Palpatine atttempted to leave and get away from the Jedi Master.

This truth: that he, the avatar of the light, Supreme Master of the Jedi order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
just-
didnt-
have it.

Yoda admits he cannot defeat Palpatine.
Furthermore, that Palpatine attempted to flee does not mean anything at all in and of itself. IIRC the Sith had abandond using lightsabres except to humiliate the odd Jedi.

[Cos Dashit]

Sure, Yoda might have not been able to defeat him when he was 900 years old fighting a young kid, which Palpatine was in comparison to Yoda. Yoda in his prime would have wiped the floor with Palpatine in any stage, hands down.

[Stuart Mackey]

Sure, Yoda might have not been able to defeat him when he was 900 years old fighting a young kid, which Palpatine was in comparison to Yoda. Yoda in his prime would have wiped the floor with Palpatine in any stage, hands down.

That would have to be the stupidest statement I have seen in a week.
It is irrelivant what Yoda could have done when younger because Palpatine wasnt alive then. Moreover you forget that for Jedi there is the "we are not this crude matter" while also forgetting that Palpatine was not a young man either. You have also ignored a canon statement on just what Yoda was, which is just as stupid.

You also got Yoda's age wrong.

[Eleas]

Most damning of all is the simple fact that Yoda isn't hampered by his age. This can easily be verified by simply looking at his fighting style. He leaps, cavorts, jumps, spins. In combat, he shows all the hallmarks of an acrobat in the prime of his life; this is, of course, due to Yoda boosting himself with the Force.

One might say that Yoda, if he were younger, could have used that power to attack Palpatine with the Force, but that's an overly hasty statement. If the boost weakened Yoda's use of the Force in other ways, he would fight more conservatively; he's good enough to know how to do this, yet opts not to. Also, a younger Yoda would not yet necessarily have achieved the mastery over the Force that the 900 year old swamp muppet has.

As for the recurrence of the old "styles" nonsense in this thread... please oh fucking please stop attributing decisive effectiveness in combat to "unconventional style" bullcrap. Vader beat Jedi after Jedi because he was powerful enough to, in essence, negate their advantages in speed and acrobatics, while outmaneuvering them mentally and power-wise. The fact that he still retained a good degree of skill was just icing.

When two masters of multiple sword forms fight each other, it goes down to effective skill. An unconventional style might... might give its user a tiny edge. Anything more than that is pure fancy, particularly given the fact that every swordsman develops his own unique body of preferred techniques -- style -- sooner or later.

[Cos Dashit]

Yoda was so dissapointed in himself after his so-called 'loss' to Palpatine, he decided to go into exile. If he expected himself to lose, he would not have taken the loss so hard.

[Eleas]

Yoda was so dissapointed in himself after his so-called 'loss' to Palpatine, he decided to go into exile. If he expected himself to lose, he would not have taken the loss so hard.

...so? I'm not sure what you're trying to say, here.

[Darth Yoshi]

Have you read the novel, Cos? Yoda realizes that he can't beat Palpatine during the whole Force Lightning barrage in the Senate Chamber. He goes in expecting to win, and finds out he can't.

[Cos Dashit]

Have you read the novel, Cos? Yoda realizes that he can't beat Palpatine during the whole Force Lightning barrage in the Senate Chamber. He goes in expecting to win, and finds out he can't.

Yeah, that's what I was saying about his expecting to win but not being able to. I got that from the film, although I have never read the novel. I don't understand why Yoda thought he couldn't win during the Force-lightning battle, he turned the tables and blasted Palpatine backward, although he flew back as well. Do you think you could get me a quote from the book regarding Yoda's thoughts as the fight was going on?

[Darth Yoshi]

He survived the barrage. IIRC, withstanding the last attack pretty much drained him. Unfortunately, I don't have the book, so I can't provide quotes.

[Kurgan]

A decent Force-user can defend against and negate a Force Choke or similar technique in battle, perhaps even passively. That would only work if your opponent was already all but defeated.

Yeah, a decent Force user like Obi-Wan. Oh wait...

People always forget that scene! This to me is conclusive proof that the old "they can't use offensive force powers during a duel" is not a hard and fast rule, if it's even a rule at all! There's other examples too (the use of Force Push with Anakin vs. Obi-Wan in ROTS, Dooku vs. Yoda in AOTC, Maul vs. Obi-Wan in TPM).

And what's with this "grey Jedi" stuff early on in the thread? Wouldn't you say that all non-Sith we've seen in the movies are "grey Jedi"? Isn't that a bit absurd? Perhaps people have this standard external to the movies of what a "Light Sider" really is, and thus they accuse the movie Jedi of being deviants. Perhaps the movie Jedi are in fact the standard, and our ideas of what a Light Sider are, are distorted? Just a thought...

to date the only Jedi to have defeated Vader is Luke Skywalker(as in the son of Anakin Skywalker) and it's quite clear that Luke is not just another jedi to Vader, from the EU I've read it's quite clear that Vader loses focus if confronted with things Anakin Skywalker cared about.

Obi-Wan defeated Vader in ROTS. Dooku defeated him in AOTC, but that was before he became Vader. Of course if you're arguing who's defeated him while in the suit then that's different.

Yoda admits he cannot defeat Palpatine.
Furthermore, that Palpatine attempted to flee does not mean anything at all in and of itself. IIRC the Sith had abandond using lightsabres except to humiliate the odd Jedi.

What?? All the Sith we've seen in the movies have used lightsabers. And not just to "humiliate Jedi" but to defend their own lives in combat!

[Noble Ire]

Yeah, a decent Force user like Obi-Wan. Oh wait...

People always forget that scene! This to me is conclusive proof that the old "they can't use offensive force powers during a duel" is not a hard and fast rule, if it's even a rule at all! There's other examples too (the use of Force Push with Anakin vs. Obi-Wan in ROTS, Dooku vs. Yoda in AOTC, Maul vs. Obi-Wan in TPM).

And I acknowledged my error perhaps three posts after that.

In any event, I don't think anyone has argued that they can't use offensive Force powers in combat, it is obvious they can. However, I don't think that such attacks are garuanteed to work every time, and can be negated or reflected, assuming the combatant in question senses it coming and can do something about it (case in point, Yoda v. Dooku).

[Lord Revan]

to date the only Jedi to have defeated Vader is Luke Skywalker(as in the son of Anakin Skywalker) and it's quite clear that Luke is not just another jedi to Vader, from the EU I've read it's quite clear that Vader loses focus if confronted with things Anakin Skywalker cared about.

Obi-Wan defeated Vader in ROTS. Dooku defeated him in AOTC, but that was before he became Vader. Of course if you're arguing who's defeated him while in the suit then that's different.

we were talking about about Darth Vader post-Mustafar as it was the topic of the thread.

[Kurgan]

And I acknowledged my error perhaps three posts after that.

My bad! Though your next response suggested it was something rare. Out of all the saber battles we've seen in the movies four of them (classic trilogy) involve no offense force powers used mid-duel (unless you count Vader's tossing a lightsaber as a force power), while in the prequels five out of six of the battles we see (though one could argue how you break up those battles, since some of them overlap) involve the use of offensive force power, only one involving "force grip." Apparently push or lightning use is far more common.

In any event, I don't think anyone has argued that they can't use offensive Force powers in combat, it is obvious they can. However, I don't think that such attacks are garuanteed to work every time, and can be negated or reflected, assuming the combatant in question senses it coming and can do something about it (case in point, Yoda v. Dooku).

I wouldn't argue that it has to be guarenteed to work every time, only that it's a viable tactic that supposedly seasoned force users may employ.

Lord Revan, I stand corrected then.

Now who wants to argue that channeling the darkside is required for a Light Sider to win a saber duel against a Sith?

[Darth Yoshi]

Only if you want to argue that Dooku beat Yoda.

[Cos Dashit]

Yoda beat Dooku and he definately didn't channel the Dark Side.

[Stuart Mackey]

What?? All the Sith we've seen in the movies have used lightsabers. And not just to "humiliate Jedi" but to defend their own lives in combat!

Have you seen the movies? How many Jedi did he fight and when? And what happned to them?
Palpatine got to run the galaxy not by fighting 10 000 Jedi {or however many ther are},he got elected to the position by being a force assisted politician.

[Eframepilot]

Yoda beat Dooku and he definately didn't channel the Dark Side.

Yoda caught Dooku's Force lightning and threw it back at him. Yoda may not have generated the dark side energy for the lightning, but he certainly channeled it.

At any rate, Yoda's own use of the Force to knock out the Imperial guards, hurl Sidious across the room and send the Senate pod spinning back at Sidious totally disproves his later statement that a Jedi uses the Force only for knowledge and defense, never for attack (or at least, it disproves the most straightforward interpretation).

[Cykeisme]

I understand that there's a disparity between the Sidious vs Yoda battle in the movie and the novel. In the novel, it seems like Yoda is totally outclassed, whereas in the movie the end of the fight appears to have been a matter of luck that could have gone either way.

However, this isn't necessarily an irreconcilable difference. Realize that there is no luck. Obi-Wan's statement in ANH can be taken as conjecture, but it may also be far more than that.

As I see it, this being my own interpretation, strength in the Force doesn't simply grant you the power to see the future and move objects or shoot lightning. It actually increases your potential to affect fate in your favor, or perhaps to simply have fate go in your favor. Those with a profound understanding of the Force realize there is no luck; it's the "will of the Force" at work.

From all measurable, observable data, Yoda's defeat may have been luck.. but from the point of view of the Force, Sidious simply could not have been defeated and destroyed there in the Senate Chamber.. and Yoda ultimately realized this.

[Cos Dashit]

Would one fight determine which is more skilled with the Force?

Perhaps if Yoda didn't go into exile and tried fighting Palpatine again, there might have been different results. I would have laid low for a short while, concentrated, and gathered my thoughts so as to regain lost abilities and sharpen rusty skills.

I'm sure if Yoda did this, he could have beaten Sidious the second time 'round.