Assimalating SW

[RedImperator]

I find it very hard to believe that the prince in the above scenario would be incapable of building a simple Model T given the schematics and personnel you provided to him. Sure, it might take up to a few decades, but the components of the Model T were not particularly complex - this isn't some 2005 Ford Explorer with microchip-controlled fuel injection and GPS navigation. It's not for nothing that the first automobiles were called "horseless carriages". With the proper instructions, the blacksmiths and other craftsmen of the time would be able to create all necessary parts, and putting together the actual vehicle from there would be easy.

Where would he get the rubber for the tires and gaskets? How would he make the necessary steel components without machine tools? Where would he find petroleum? How would his craftsmen be able to handle the high temperatures and pressures involved in refining gasoline?

Assuming by some act of magic he could get the rubber and oil (and that's a hell of a generous assumption), the real bottleneck is the lack of machine tools. Medieval blacksmiths are not going to be able to replicate machined parts to the tolerances required by a Model T. I'd love to see a medieval blacksmith try to bore out a cylinder. You can't build a car, even a simple one, without basic tools like a drill press or a lathe.

[Eframepilot]

Well, the end result won't be a standard Model T and starting up an assembly line is out of the question, but the prince could certainly succeed in building a more primitive version of a car. If necessary, it could roll on wooden or metal wheels and run on refined alchohol. Assembling the engine parts won't be easy, but after enough trial and error I'm sure the engineers and craftsmen will figure some way to make a half-assed version.

The Borg have the advantage of replicator technology, which can assemble virtually anything on an atomic level given the right pattern. They won't have trouble building devices as long as they can scan the originals and have access to the same materials. Also, their learning curve for advanced technology is incredibly high; a few Borg nanoprobes from Seven that contaminated the Doctor's 29th century holoemitter succeeded in creating a Borg drone from literally scratch with technology far beyond anything the Borg ever had before: a personal transporter and personal shielding superior to an entire Borg sphere. With a simple adjustment, the Borg nanoprobes were also capable of assimilating Species 8472 cells; the Borg were unfortunately not creative enough to think of the adjustment themselves.

[Knife]

Well, the end result won't be a standard Model T and starting up an assembly line is out of the question, but the prince could certainly succeed in building a more primitive version of a car. If necessary, it could roll on wooden or metal wheels and run on refined alchohol. Assembling the engine parts won't be easy, but after enough trial and error I'm sure the engineers and craftsmen will figure some way to make a half-assed version.

The Borg have the advantage of replicator technology, which can assemble virtually anything on an atomic level given the right pattern. They won't have trouble building devices as long as they can scan the originals and have access to the same materials. Also, their learning curve for advanced technology is incredibly high; a few Borg nanoprobes from Seven that contaminated the Doctor's 29th century holoemitter succeeded in creating a Borg drone from literally scratch with technology far beyond anything the Borg ever had before: a personal transporter and personal shielding superior to an entire Borg sphere. With a simple adjustment, the Borg nanoprobes were also capable of assimilating Species 8472 cells; the Borg were unfortunately not creative enough to think of the adjustment themselves.

But we know that a replicator can't make even some things in trek. Certain compounds (medicines come to mind as well as explosives) they can't or don't replicate, nor to they build a giant replicatator and shit out ships with them.

Since they would be dealing with technology they have actaully no idea how it works, I don't see why a replicator could start cranking out hypermatter and reactors.

The replicator isn't magic, and your back to the begining that they don't know who to make certain things that they'd need to build SW tech. And going back to the 'World Devistator'. We know from the ICS that repulsor coils are made in facilities around/by/encirceling blackholes.

I doubt the data to build one of those are in the WD databanks. So unless the WD has a good stash of these aboard, any ship it makes for the Borg will have no Repulsars. Simularly, I doubt a WD has the plans for a hypermatter maker/creator for where ever the hell they get it from. With out that, no hyperdrive. Etc.....

[RedImperator]

Well, the end result won't be a standard Model T and starting up an assembly line is out of the question, but the prince could certainly succeed in building a more primitive version of a car. If necessary, it could roll on wooden or metal wheels and run on refined alchohol. Assembling the engine parts won't be easy, but after enough trial and error I'm sure the engineers and craftsmen will figure some way to make a half-assed version.

Have you ever worked on an engine? I'm not talking about a modern one full of electronic whizbangs and do-funnies, I'm talking something dead simple, like an old Chrysler slant-six or even something like a two-stroke lawnmower engine. The cylinders alone must be machined to a precision that's impossible for a Medieval blacksmith, out of materials that Medieval metallurgy can't create and Medieval metalworking techniques will ruin.

The Borg have the advantage of replicator technology, which can assemble virtually anything on an atomic level given the right pattern.

Except gold-pressed latinum and ribosomes, apparently. And where did "atomic level" come from? Replicators can't create caviar with enough fidelity to fool Captain Picard; that's molecular level, at best. And we've never seen replicators create any inanimate object more complicated than a wineglass. If replicators are so good, why was Voyager bartering for spare parts instead of replicating them?

They won't have trouble building devices as long as they can scan the originals and have access to the same materials.

First, it's a huge leap to assume the Borg will be able to replicate the parts in the first place. Second, having access to the same materials is by no means assured--in fact, it's likely to be their single largest obstacle. No material in nature could possibly withstand the thermal and mechanical stresses Imperial and Republic ships routinely shrug off, which means they're made out of artificial materials. Now the world devestator can make them, but that doesn't mean the Borg will.

Also, their learning curve for advanced technology is incredibly high; a few Borg nanoprobes from Seven that contaminated the Doctor's 29th century holoemitter succeeded in creating a Borg drone from literally scratch with technology far beyond anything the Borg ever had before: a personal transporter and personal shielding superior to an entire Borg sphere. With a simple adjustment, the Borg nanoprobes were also capable of assimilating Species 8472 cells; the Borg were unfortunately not creative enough to think of the adjustment themselves.

Their uber-drone used refined versions of the same technology the Borg already use. It's impressive the nanoprobes on their own built a more advanced drone, but it's a first class no-limits fallacy to extrapolate that to mean the Borg will just as easily learn technology that may well be based on principles they haven't even discovered yet.

[althornin]

Where would he get the rubber for the tires and gaskets? How would he make the necessary steel components without machine tools? Where would he find petroleum? How would his craftsmen be able to handle the high temperatures and pressures involved in refining gasoline?

Assuming by some act of magic he could get the rubber and oil (and that's a hell of a generous assumption), the real bottleneck is the lack of machine tools. Medieval blacksmiths are not going to be able to replicate machined parts to the tolerances required by a Model T. I'd love to see a medieval blacksmith try to bore out a cylinder. You can't build a car, even a simple one, without basic tools like a drill press or a lathe.

Ummm.
You GAVE HIM a way to get rubber, tires, gaskets, and ways to machine parts.
Allow me to retort:

To take an analogy, imagine a Medieval prince in the possession of the complete schmatics, including step-by-step assembly instructions for all important components directly from raw material, of Henry Ford's entire industrial operation, from his iron mines to the last sprocket and cog on the assembly line, as well as all the necessary schematics for building a Model T. Furthermore, there are instructions for refining gasoline, processing rubber, making windshield glass, the Bessemer process, all of it. Furthermore, by some magic, he acquires a team of industrial and construction engineers fully qualified to run and maintain Ford's operation.

According to the bolded part, he has full knowledge on how to take every important component from raw --> finished part. For every piece of Ford's entire industrial operation.

[The Spartan]

BUT WHERE DOES HE GET THEM?!?!?

It's all well and good to know what to do with the resources but when they're literally half way around the world when most people, even noblemen, never went beyond their own borders, the idea that he'd have ready access to them is ridiculous.

[Knife]

Ummm.
You GAVE HIM a way to get rubber, tires, gaskets, and ways to machine parts.
Allow me to retort:

No, he gave him the information on how to do it, not the parts or resouces to do it.

Quick, google up how to make a catepult. NOW, run around your house and gather the parts....

See the problem?

According to the bolded part, he has full knowledge on how to take every important component from raw --> finished part. For every piece of Ford's entire industrial operation.

http://www.barbwiremuseum.com/makingwire.htm

Here you go, here's how you make wire. Now, without going to the store, or home depot or other places, just with what you got at your home/apartment; make some wire.

What? I gave you all the info you need? Why can't you do it?

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

No, he gave him the information on how to do it, not the parts or resouces to do it.

Quick, google up how to make a catepult. NOW, run around your house and gather the parts....

See the problem?

If I google up how to make a catapult, I can't run around my house to find the parts, but I can take my axe, chope down a bunch of trees, make some really crappy looking lumber, and assemble a cataple in several months to a year (with help).

http://www.barbwiremuseum.com/makingwire.htm

Here you go, here's how you make wire. Now, without going to the store, or home depot or other places, just with what you got at your home/apartment; make some wire.

What? I gave you all the info you need? Why can't you do it?

The Medieval Prince of the previous posts doesn't need to "look around his house" to get the parts. He has access to blacksmiths, carpenters, iron ore, and trading partners that can furnish him with most, if not all, of the raw materials needed for the Model-T. It's going to take him and his decendants a century or two to begin to assemble the infastructure, but he's capable of cranking out a few.

[Bounty]

And we've never seen replicators create any inanimate object more complicated than a wineglass

They made a mechanical watch in Year of Hell I, so small moving parts are possible.

[Ghost Rider]

The Medieval Prince of the previous posts doesn't need to "look around his house" to get the parts. He has access to blacksmiths, carpenters, iron ore, and trading partners that can furnish him with most, if not all, of the raw materials needed for the Model-T. It's going to take him and his decendants a century or two to begin to assemble the infastructure, but he's capable of cranking out a few.

Shit they had RUBBER in the Middle ages?

Fuck let's see...I remember 1800's ...fuck, that prince has some nifty people helping him

So please detail how medieval man...regardless of skill is going to VULCANIZE rubber

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

Shit they had RUBBER in the Middle ages?

Fuck let's see...I remember 1800's ...fuck, that prince has some nifty people helping him

Remeber, I never said they had rubber, but that they have been given the procedure to produce rubber. Given the century or more I said they'd need in my last post:

It's going to take him and his decendants a century or two to begin to assemble the infastructure...

They'd be able to properly produce it.

[Ghost Rider]

Shit they had RUBBER in the Middle ages?

Fuck let's see...I remember 1800's ...fuck, that prince has some nifty people helping him

Remeber, I never said they had rubber, but that they have been given the procedure to produce rubber. Given the century or more I said they'd need in my last post:

It's going to take him and his decendants a century or two to begin to assemble the infastructure...

They'd be able to properly produce it.

Do you know how one gets Rubber Tires?

vulcanization (vŭl'kənəzā'shən) , treatment of rubber to give it certain qualities, e.g., strength, elasticity, and resistance to solvents, and to render it impervious to moderate heat and cold. Chemically, the process involves the formation of cross-linkages between the polymer chains of the rubber's molecules. Vulcanization is accomplished usually by a process invented by Charles Goodyear in 1839, involving combination with sulfur and heating. A method of cold vulcanization (treating rubber with a bath or vapors of a sulfur compound) was developed by Alexander Parkes in 1846. Rubber for almost all ordinary purposes is vulcanized; exceptions are rubber cement, crepe-rubber soles, and adhesive tape. Hard rubber is vulcanized rubber in which 30% to 50% of sulfur has been mixed before heating; soft rubber contains usually less than 5% of sulfur. After the sulfur and rubber (and usually an organic accelerator, e.g., an aniline compound, to shorten the time or lower the heat necessary for vulcanization) are mixed, the compound is usually placed in molds and subjected to heat and pressure. The heat may be applied directly by steam, by steam-heated molds, by hot air, or by hot water. Vulcanization can also be accomplished with certain peroxides, gamma radiation, and several other organic compounds. The finished product is not sticky like raw rubber, does not harden with cold or soften much except with great heat, is elastic, springing back into shape when deformed instead of remaining deformed as unvulcanized rubber does, is highly resistant to abrasion and to gasoline and most chemicals, and is a good insulator against electricity and heat. Many synthetic rubbers undergo processes of vulcanization, some of which are similar to that applied to natural rubber. The invention of vulcanization made possible the wide use of rubber and aided the development of such industries as the automobile industry.

Medieval man even with knowledge doesn't have the TECHNOLOGY.

Last I heard 1839 was when this process was invented.

So Medieval man is going to have the inherent knowledge that goes into vulcanization?

I fucking doubt it

So please present something with a modicum of intelligence other then you spouting "They know how to!!!!". I'm glad you equate reading and knowledge to HAVING the technology.

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

Medieval man even with knowledge doesn't have the TECHNOLOGY.

Last I heard 1839 was when this process was invented.

So Medieval man is going to have the inherent knowledge that goes into vulcanization?

I fucking doubt it

So please present something with a modicum of intelligence other then you spouting "They know how to!!!!". I'm glad you equate reading and knowledge to HAVING the technology.

The Original OP with regards to the Medieval Prince states that in addition to the "know how to" they get some people from modern times who know about the machinery to make the finished product, and that includes the technology to do it!

And that's where my figure of a couple of centuries comes in! To get Medieval technology and infastructure up to par with what would be needed to go through the Vulcanization process. So understand that every coceivable means of making the finished product, from having the knowledge to having people that can make the technology has been given to the Medieval Prince, with sufficient time to create an infastructure to accomplish it.

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

Please understand that I am not advocating the idea that a Medieval Prince is going to be able to shit out Model-Ts right after he gets this information. It's gonna take a shit load of time before he can even begin assembling the car, like I said.

[SirNitram]

It's even worse with electronics than this, I must say. Think about it: Did anyone, even a hundred years ago, have the capability to work on the tiny scales modern computer chips require? Would they even be able to figure it out?

[Ghost Rider]

Please understand that I am not advocating the idea that a Medieval Prince is going to be able to shit out Model-Ts right after he gets this information. It's gonna take a shit load of time before he can even begin assembling the car, like I said.

Cronos needs to read because RedImp wrote:

To take an analogy, imagine a Medieval prince in the possession of the complete schmatics, including step-by-step assembly instructions for all important components directly from raw material, of Henry Ford's entire industrial operation, from his iron mines to the last sprocket and cog on the assembly line, as well as all the necessary schematics for building a Model T. Furthermore, there are instructions for refining gasoline, processing rubber, making windshield glass, the Bessemer process, all of it. Furthermore, by some magic, he acquires a team of industrial and construction engineers fully qualified to run and maintain Ford's operation. Could that prince then begin manufacturing cars? No--because the infrastructure upon which Ford depended when he built his operation in the first place doesn't exist and couldn't be built in a reasonable time frame. The Prince might learn a lot of useful things about engineering nobody knew before, and he might be able to have his wise men or whatever deduce new physical principles from the schmatics, but he won't be able to build a single car.

Let's see what RedImp stated.

He makes note they do not have the INFRASTRUCTURE. Do you even fucking grasp what this means?

Or are you so fucking stupid to believe they will get OIL DRILLED to fuel this vehicle? So what about the steel needed to BUILD the Drill? Oh wait, you're just spewing shit because you have no grasp of what infrastructure requires and all you can spew is "They could given the time!"

Sure, when they reach the modern ages

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

Ghost Rider needs to learn to read because I never said they had the infastructure! I said that they would have to build it up. They have iron ore. They know, from the info they got from the future, how to make steel.

So after the arduous time consuming task of getting their blacksmiths up to the task of making steel (which would require the entire revamping of their blacksmith system) they'd have steel. Then they go through the arduous and time consuming task of building machines to build the drills (using the schematics given to them from the future, as well as the men brought back to help), they have the drills. Then they have to set up and drill the oil. Then they have to set up the infastructure to refine the oil (though I don't know what went into refining oil for the Model-T cars). Now you have refined oil.

Remeber that the reason that it took until the early twentieth century for this entire operation to come to fruition was the time taken for R&D, trial and error and the like. With the plans for these raw materials and machines already in the Prince's hands, the process of trial and error and R&D need not be taken, unless the Prince wants to try to improve on the plans he has (an unlikely idea).

Because of the ability to skip the R&D steps, the Prince has an edge on the normal historical process of how civilization progressed from Medieval transportation to the Model-T.

What Ghost Rider seems to miss in my previous post is where I acknowledge the fact that a lot of time (centuries) will be required to accomplish this momentous feat.

[Batman]

There's someone here who needs to learn to read all right. It's not GR, however.

Ghost Rider needs to learn to read because I never said they had the infastructure! I said that they would have to build it up. They have iron ore. They know, from the info they got from the future, how to make steel.

Yup. Using 20th century equipment.

So after the arduous time consuming task of getting their blacksmiths up to the task of making steel (which would require the entire revamping of their blacksmith system)

Which would need the information for the intermediary steps from middle ages>>>>early 20th century metalworking. Which they don't have.
They know how to do it from ore to steel using 20th century smeltering etc tech. They do NOT know how to get that tech.

they'd have steel.

No they wouldn't.

Then they go through the arduous and time consuming task of building machines to build the drills (using the schematics given to them from the future, as well as the men brought back to help)

No. They'd be totally defeated by the task of building the machines they need to build the machines they need to build the machines that build the drills because they do NOT have info on the internediary steps. Info on how to build 20th machines does not equal ability to build 20th century machines.

, they have the drills.

See above. No they don't.

Then they have to set up and drill the oil.

So the Ford engineers know how to locate and exploit oil fields, too? Wow. I'm impressed. Oh wait. They do not.

Then they have to set up the infastructure to refine the oil (though I don't know what went into refining oil for the Model-T cars). Now you have refined oil.

Except that they do not. They know how to make use of crude oil. They have no clue how to get it.

Remeber that the reason that it took until the early twentieth century for this entire operation to come to fruition was the time taken for R&D, trial and error and the like. With the plans for these raw materials and machines already in the Prince's hands, the process of trial and error and R&D need not be taken,

Yes it does because the plans are only for the last generation of machines. Wich you can't manufacture with the first.

Because of the ability to skip the R&D steps,

Which he hasn't got,

the Prince has an edge on the normal historical process of how civilization progressed from Medieval transportation to the Model-T.

No he can't.

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

I never thought of the intermediate steps for metallurgy (sp?) If indeed they don't have the intermediate steps, then no, the Medieval Prince couldn't do it. I was under the assumption that the plans they got from the future would include the steps to get from Medieval tech to modern tech. If it does, then he could. As you say, it depends on the inclusion of intermediate steps in the future given directions.

[Ghost Rider]

I never thought of the intermediate steps for metallurgy (sp?) If indeed they don't have the intermediate steps, then no, the Medieval Prince couldn't do it. I was under the assumption that the plans they got from the future would include the steps to get from Medieval tech to modern tech. If it does, then he could. As you say, it depends on the inclusion of intermediate steps in the future given directions.

Just because you can't read and RedImp answered the question already I'll post what he said again. Maybe this time you'll fucking understand.

Where would he get the rubber for the tires and gaskets? How would he make the necessary steel components without machine tools? Where would he find petroleum? How would his craftsmen be able to handle the high temperatures and pressures involved in refining gasoline?

Assuming by some act of magic he could get the rubber and oil (and that's a hell of a generous assumption), the real bottleneck is the lack of machine tools. Medieval blacksmiths are not going to be able to replicate machined parts to the tolerances required by a Model T. I'd love to see a medieval blacksmith try to bore out a cylinder. You can't build a car, even a simple one, without basic tools like a drill press or a lathe.

Prove he said that this prince had any of this IN HIS OWN SCENARIO

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

Prove he said that this prince had any of this IN HIS OWN SCENARIO

Again you demonstrait your inability to read. I said ASSUMPTION. After Batman pointed out my mistake in this, I promply admitted it! Nowhere in my last post (the one you quoted above) did I say he definitely had the means to do it! If you could read you'd see where I repeatedly used the word IF. If you want to harp on me after I admitted my mistake don't expect me to be too friendly about it.

[Ghost Rider]

Prove he said that this prince had any of this IN HIS OWN SCENARIO

Again you demonstrait your inability to read. I said ASSUMPTION. After Batman pointed out my mistake in this, I promply admitted it! Nowhere in my last post (the one you quoted above) did I say he definitely had the means to do it! If you could read you'd see where I repeatedly used the word IF. If you want to harp on me after I admitted my mistake don't expect me to be too friendly about it.

Ah so you want to go "I assumed it!!!" exonerates you from being a fucktard idiot.

Gotcha.

Oh let's see your retort to Knife was...

The Medieval Prince of the previous posts doesn't need to "look around his house" to get the parts. He has access to blacksmiths, carpenters, iron ore, and trading partners that can furnish him with most, if not all, of the raw materials needed for the Model-T. It's going to take him and his decendants a century or two to begin to assemble the infastructure, but he's capable of cranking out a few.

I must be missing you put that this is based on your assumptions and not your asstarded argument that you kept spouting dumbfuck. You kept this up and then spouted the cowardly "Oh I don't advocate it, because it'll take a shitload of time."

So aside from being an ignorant moron, because not once did you actually defend your arguement from what RedImp wrote and spouted nonsensical bullshit, that Batman corrected you and now going "Oh I mean to assume all this..."

So when I call you a moron, it's because you amply demonstrated such, dipshit.

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

Ah so you want to go "I assumed it!!!" exonerates you from being a fucktard idiot.

The fact that I admitted my mistake exonerates me from being a "fucking idiot," but your repeated decision to ignore my concession in favor of continuing to attack me pretty much makes you a "fucking idiot."

The Medieval Prince of the previous posts doesn't need to "look around his house" to get the parts. He has access to blacksmiths, carpenters, iron ore, and trading partners that can furnish him with most, if not all, of the raw materials needed for the Model-T. It's going to take him and his decendants a century or two to begin to assemble the infastructure, but he's capable of cranking out a few.

I must be missing you put that this is based on your assumptions and not your asstarded argument that you kept spouting dumbfuck.

So you decided to take a quote from before I admitted my mistake, while totally ignoring the fact that I admitted my mistake, so you can call me an idiot for saying something that I later admitted was a mistake? That's pretty damned dishonest, but nice job!

[Ghost Rider]

Admitting a mistake is all well and good.

Too bad your fucking mornitude never proved how I, RedImp or anyone was wrong...until every avenue of your piss poor knowledge of the subject was beaten down. So all you did was concede.

But the fact remains it practically took someone to throw a book at you when you provided no evidence otherwise of how RedImp scenario was talking out his ass except your piss poor "it'll take time!!!!"

[Knife]

So, bringing this analogy back to SWvST;

Even if the Borg capture a WD and even if they have the detailed plans for Tie's and ISD's, they still wouldn't be able to build them.

The WD would not have the plans for a Black Hole spanning facility to make the repulsars. The WD would not have the plans for the Hypermatter maker/generator/processing plant. The WD would not have the plans to make the machines necessary to make either of the facilities. The WD would not have the plans to make the machines that the Borg would need to make the material that would intern make the machines they need to make the infrastructue.

The best they could hope for is some nuggets of understanding into area's of research and perhaps a few working ships the WD could pump out with it's present resources. But even then, when the fuel is gone, when the components are gone to keep the ships going, they're shit out of luck.