Would the ISA stand a chance vs the Borg?

[Omega-13]

to add to that, i don't know how the weapon works, just what it can do,
much like the deathstar, the nano's might be self replicating, no idea, at all, and i'll admit i don't know how it works

[Master of Ossus]

Omega-13. If you do some math on the weapon in question, you will find that even if the nanoprobes are NOT vaporized by the explosion, and even if it does affect everything in the system, then Seven of Nine's explanation of this weapon makes no sense. You will find that the concentration of nanoprobes in space around the weapon is FAR too small to even stand a good chance of striking even very large capital ships with even one nanoprobe. The Death Star was seen firing. We know what its effects are, but if you don't hit something with a nanobot, it cannot be affected. The concentration of nanos from the weapon that Seven of Nine described simply would not be high enough to have a large affect on a volume that size. It is quite probable that she was mistaken in either its range or exact capabilities. She may have also been exaggerating when she described its range. I know that we don't know how the Death Star works, either, but Seven's bomb appears NOT to work from her own description of the weapon.

Also, your statement that "quantified" means talked about is incorrect. For something to be quantified, like the Death Star, we must see its effects at least once.

In any case, the Borg would not need such weapons in order to soundly defeat the ISA. ISA does not have the firepower, protection, or numbers to defeat the Borg.

[Omega-13]

i agree, that the borg won't need to use it,
now would you agree, that if this borg weapon was detonated in orbit, the planet would be fucked within hours?

[Omega-13]

how the heck do i edit my posts? so i don't have to keep posting short messages here,

I"ll admit the math doesn't add up,

[Master of Ossus]

Of course a planet would be screwed. A planet is large enough (and orbit is close enough) that huge numbers of nanobots would be able to strike it. Assuming that they could survive entry into a planet's atmosphere (which they seem to be completely capable of, from all descriptions and examples), they would immediately go to work on the planet's ecosystem. If these particular nanobots work as fast as most Borg ones do, then the planet would be seriously screwed over in less than two hours, and all non-Borg activity will have ceased within three days (assuming an Earth-like orbit and size).

The weapon, however, did not carry enough nanos to devastate an entire system, like Seven of Nine was claiming, however. It would be able to saturate a small area, but the number of nanobots was insufficient to guarantee hits against smaller targets at the fantastic ranges she was talking about.

In short, the weapon could be easily used to knock out a planet, but not a solar system.

[Omega-13]

Also, the weapon would be ideal for fleet battles, and would quickly allow the borg to assimilate, analyse, and come up with not only defensive screens, but offensive weapons aswell to help them, the borg aren't all defence, some people associate borg with only defensive abilities, they can also dish it out aswell, and they change their weapon systems aslong the way to help them,

VOY. ENDGAME

though, of course, any stardestroyer would smoke a cube within a few seconds in the first encounters

[Master of Ossus]

Also, the weapon would be ideal for fleet battles, and would quickly allow the borg to assimilate, analyse, and come up with not only defensive screens, but offensive weapons aswell to help them, the borg aren't all defence, some people associate borg with only defensive abilities, they can also dish it out aswell, and they change their weapon systems aslong the way to help them,

VOY. ENDGAME

though, of course, any stardestroyer would smoke a cube within a few seconds in the first encounters

Hmmm... Larger fleet battles (ones with lots of ships) fought in a small area would make this a feasible tactic. Smaller battles, or ones over a very large area of space would make this less effective. Again, the problem is with nanobot dispersal (since capital ships are small targets compared to planets). This could probably work in many situations, but it would be ineffective in SOME situations. I guess it would be doable, it would just be less effective than some things the Borg could do, especially when they outgunned someone as badly as they would the ISA.

[Mechwolf]

Master of Ossus,

I'm confused by some of your responses.

2. I agree, completely. The Borg are inconsistent, but they have been seen repeatedly stopping beam weapons to whose frequencies they have adapted.

I'm not arguing that. I agree. My point though is that Particle-type weapons contain too many frequencies for the Borg to adapt to. After all, isn't that why the Star Wars lasers would be effective against the borg?

3. You don't seem to have a third point, but you have a fourth.

Sorry about that.

4. A mass driver is not an oversized railgun. If you will watch the pictures of the Centauri bombarding Narn with mass drivers, you will note that there is no barrel to the weapon. A railgun necessitates a barrel. BTW, I thought that the Warlock had a railgun. Am I mistaken?

Mass-drivers using magnetic fields to propel iron-nickel asteroids. Railguns use magnetic fields to propel iron-lead slugs. And if you look closely at the Centuri Primus-class Battlecruiser, you should see metal strut-like structures that the asteroids are propelled through.

I don't know about the Warlock carring railguns. I know Olympus-class frigates carried them.

5. The Borg are not able to fire into hyperspace. Why does that matter? The Borg has VASTLY more firepower and shield power than B5 ships.

Again, My point is that if a ISA ship in hyperspace has accurate data on a Borg ship's position in normal space, the ISA can open a Jump-point from hyperspace on the Borg ship, destroying it.

6. I have never seen a 300 MT weapon in B5.

The nukes that G'Kar gives Sheridan are rated at 300,000 Megatons. In my 1st post on this subject, I accidentally said gigatons in stead of megatons.

7. So, many races employ interceptors for use agaisnt missiles. I guess that explains why the EarthForce Defense Grid fired non-nuclear payload missiles, and was designed to engage alien

I didn't say that interceptors are perfect, I just said that missiles are not often used. Perhaps I should have clarified by saying that most B5 races prefer to use the space on there ships for space efficient & unlimited shot energy weapons instead of space consuming & limited shot missile launchers. Also note there are a few ships that carry missile launchers, but these tend to be certain types of destroyers, such as the Warlock. Nova dreadnoughts, Omega Destroyers, Victory Destroyers, Sharlin cruisers, Hyperions, Primus, Vorchans, G'quans, Whitestars, etc. have no missile launchers.

However, the B5tech.com site has conflicting weapon loadouts for these ships.It is still a good site to go to. Epecially since it is somewhat related to this one. The site operator is an aquaintance of Wong.

Also note that the defense satelites in B5 were unmanned & had only manuevering thrusters, allowing the designers the luxury of equiping them with any weapon system the deamed neccessary. In other words, the Def-Sats were under more generous space allotment restrictions than a ship of the same size.

9. Why the hell do you guys all get the idea that tactics dictate everything in a conflict? Can a cavalry force beat an equal number of tanks? Of course not. They would be badly beaten, regardless of tactics. BTW, we have seen the Borg use other tactics (although they appeared equally ineffective) against Species 8472.

If you don't think tactics matter, let me ask you this. If you pit a M1-A tank against 5 police officers, who would win?If the tank is fighting well the tank would win. However, as was proven 5-6 years ago in LA, the tank is not fighting very well, police officers armrd with a bolt cutter & 9mm pistols can stop a tank cold in its tracks.

If you want a war time example, how about this. Nazi Germany was fielding advenced jet-fighters during the last 2 years of WW2 that had a maximum cruising speed of 600MPH. The Allies fastest fighters & bombers could only do 450MPH. So why were the Allies pouding the stuffing out of them? Because Hitler's tactics called for the jet-fighters to be used as bombers nullifying the 150mph advantage they had over Allied bombers & fighters.

Concerning B5 fire power vs Federation firepower...
According to the B5Tech.com, the averaege energy output of an EA plasma cannon on a Omega-class Destroyer is 3 megatons, with its max at 10 megatons.

Minbari Sharlin cruiser Neutron Laser(slicer-beam) is capable of an upper limit of 1,400,000 Terrawatts, or 33.3 megatons a second.

A Whitestar's Nuetron laser(quantum-gravimetric cannon) is capable of a upper limit 100,000 Terrawatt output.

EA Def-Sat is capable of 2.4 million Terrawatt Particle beam discharge.
What are the energy output ratings for TNG ship mounted phasers?

Graeme Dice Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2002 8:23 am Post subject:
Yor values for ship lengths do not match what is seen on the show.

Master of Ossus, that is why I mentioned the ship size. Greama & seanrobertson questioned B5 ship sizes.

[Master of Ossus]

Star Wars "lasers" would be effective against the Borg for a number of reasons.

1. They are not lasers. This has been proven to almost everyone's satisfaction, and I don't want to go into this (which usually means I will have to, but please don't ask, anyway).
2. They fire plasma, or some other form of matter, which Borg do not seem to be able to adapt to.
3. The KE that a turbolaser imparts is spectacular. The Borg would not be able to protect themselves against this, even if they tried.

I might be wrong about the Warlock. I am really not an expert on B5 specifications for ships that were introduced during their last season (of the real show) and beyond. The metal strut-like structures are not analogous to any rail-gun or mass-driver system I am familiar with (they look nothing like the ones we have on Earth). You are right, they might be a form of barrel, I just had not considered them to be part of the main weapon because all Primus-class ships have them, and the use of mass drivers was considered unethical by everyone involved, so I assumed that those particular weapons were not standard on Primus class ships.

I don't think that any ISA race has been seen to use the technique of opening jumpgates inside of other vessels. If they have, then please enlighten me on that, I really can think of no examples of such. And in In the Beginning Sheridan said that the jump engines on a Minbari ship were only accurate to within a few hundred meters. That would still be good enough to destroy a Borg cube (if the tactic was effective, and provided accurate jump data), but I don't think it would be enough to hit a sphere. In addition, I have yet to see damage estimates for this. It is POSSIBLE but unlikely that a Borg cube could survive such an attack (though, again, I find this unlikely).

The weapons that G'Kar provided Sheridan with were only good for use as mines (similar to the TINY nukes that Sheridan used against the Black Star). No ISA race has ever been seen firing them. Therefore, I conclude that they are only available in small quantities and only useful for seeding space with mines. Those two factors, when combined, would make them relatively ineffective against the Borg, who MIGHT be able to detect them, anyway, though this ability has never been proven (they can pick up photon torpedoes, but those are rapidly moving and fairly obvious, in comparrison to a small mine).

I love B5 tech. I also do remember when in ItB the Centauri ship destroyed a Narn Dreadnaught in one hit with a missile, but then its missiles did not seem to do much damage on the ground. I felt that this was inconsistent, and I don't know much about Centauri missile yields. I do know that no missile in B5 has been fired in a ship-to-ship fashion with a nuclear payload. The Def-Sats did have more generous space allotments than most other ships, but that still does not explain why it would be effective for them to carry missiles if it was ineffective for other ships to carry missiles because other ships carry interceptors. I think a better argument would be that missiles took up too much space to justify their advantages over other weapons seen in B5. This would make more sense and would be more consistent with B5 technology. I think that is possible, but those missiles did not seem to be able to do that much damage (I assume that the one that fired on the East Coast fired a large group of missiles).

Tactics DO matter. They can allow you to nullify an opponent's offensive weapons, and perhaps allow you to attack a less well-defended part of your enemy. They do NOT magnify your firepower. In other words, if your weapons are ineffective against a certain kind of target, tactics will not allow you to suddenly damage that target with your weapons. Between B5 and the Borg, there is enough of a technological disparity to mean that tactics would be virtually meaningless in a conflict (with the possible exception of jump-gate attack techniques). ISA ships simply do not have the firepower to knock out Borg cubes. Look at the Federation. Trekkies have been claiming to us for years that their tactics would allow them to defeat the Empire. Their tactics do not allow them to defeat Borg cubes because the Borg are so much more powerful than they are. The ISA would be incapable of standing up to Borg attacks. Their ships' firepower and protection are minimal compared to a cube. Remember, starfuries only carry Megawatts worth of destructive energy. Groups of them can take down Primus battlecruisers, and not even Sharlins can take groups of Primuses. The firepower discrepancies between ST and B5 are too great to be overcome with tactics alone. Tactics can only allow people to win victories if all other conditions are roughly the same. The most that tactics can do, is give an approximately *10 multiplier. That is not enough to take out Borg cubes. Remember with the tanks, how Polish cavalry did against Tigers? Remember how the Filipino cavalry did against the Japanese tanks? Tanks are not really stopable by infantry without some kind of unusual circumstance. In LA, that was that there was an abundance of cover, and the Tank did not use its machine guns. Had it been using its MG's, the situation would have been much uglier. Incidentally, blaming Hitler alone for the failure of the Me-262 is a little unfair. He was certainly responsible for part of it, but Adolph Galland explained after the war that they were never able to find a really good tactic to use with that aircraft. The Me-262 had serious problems. It used cannon instead of MG's, further lowering the amount of time pilots could engage a target for (already limited because of their speed advantage), it had weak maneuverability, especially at high speeds, and it was somewhat unreliable.

In ST, the firepower of the E-D is rated in the 100,000 Terrrawatt range. Its primary weapons, photon torpedoes, have an effective yield of 64 MT. That is comparable to the firepower of Sharlin class cruisers. Now remember that 600 ships pounded a Borg cube for three days during ST:FC, and would not have been able to win the battle if Picard had not shown them a weakness in the Borg's defenses. A GCS is laughable against a Borg cube. It has no chance of winning. In a group it has little or no chance of winning. With the EA defsats, only a few of them could engage a cube at once, so they would be incapable of concentrating their fire enough to knock out a Borg cube. Large numbers of ISA ships would be required to take out singular Borg, and the Borg's tremendous numerical and logistical advantages would take over. I repeat my previous point: The ISA could not hope to win a war against the Borg. The Borg would take casualties during the war, but the outcome would never be in question. It would be like a repeat of the Earth-Minbari war, but with the ISA playing the Terrans.

Sorry about your last point, I did not realize that someone had brought up ship lengths. You are quite right, B5 ships are very expansive.

Sorry, I had not realized

[Shadow WarChief]

Let me see here...Mike's calcs put Borg destroying plasma in "Descent p2" at
955 kilotons

and the particle based weaponry of the ISA is rated in the low megaton range....

so then technically shoudn't the borg a borg cube hit with a charged particle weapon used by the ISA be obliterated?

Please tell me if I'm missing anything here....

[Mechwolf]

OK, I'm getting confused here. Is this a thread about whether the ISA could defeat a Borg cube, in the way that is depicted in ST? Or is this a thread about who would win in all out war?

If it the 1st, the ISA would win against a single Borg cube in a similar way that the Federation does, only with the advantages of having weapons that are able to bypass Borg shields the same way that SW TL's are able to, but limited to destrucive yeilds a little above ST weapons.

However, if it is every Borg cube versus every member-races militaries of the ISA, then yes, the ISA would be outnumbered & defeated. But the Borg almost never engages in this fashion.

The only Sci-Fi militaries that I'm familar with that could defeat the Borg in all out war is the Galactic Empire, New Republic, & the Zentradi form Macross.

Master of Ossus Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2002 12:02 am Post subject:

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Star Wars "lasers" would be effective against the Borg for a number of reasons.

1. They are not lasers. This has been proven to almost everyone's satisfaction, and I don't want to go into this (which usually means I will have to, but please don't ask, anyway).
2. They fire plasma, or some other form of matter, which Borg do not seem to be able to adapt to.

I agree, & am familar with the proof of this. But would you not agree that B5 particle & plasma type weapons would be effective in the same way, with exception to the lower energy ratings of B5 weapons? If SW TLs are actually laser-induced particle beams(which I believe them to be) wouldn't other particle weapons form other Scf-Fi series have that same advantage, even with a lower energy yield?

3. The KE that a turbolaser imparts is spectacular. The Borg would not be able to protect themselves against this, even if they tried.

Again, I agree 100%.

[adam warlock]

I don't think that any ISA race has been seen to use the technique of opening jumpgates inside of other vessels. If they have, then please enlighten me on that, I really can think of no examples of such. And in In the Beginning Sheridan said that the jump engines on a Minbari ship were only accurate to within a few hundred meters.

just to point out..
in "end game", garibaldi sent jump coordinates to marcus in order for him to open a jumppoint within the atmosphere that is also close enough to the ground to execute a surprise attack.
it was stated in this scene that the coordinate have to be/are accurate to within a few feet.

[Mechwolf]

Forgot to mention in "In The Begining" the Minbari Shargoti-class Dreadnought Dra-la-Fee(Black Star) tricked the Battlegroup that the EAS Lexington was in command of into a predetermined position to open a jump-point onto, destroying 1 Hyperion & 1 Nova. It then continued to attack the other Hyperion, Nova, & Olympus with conventional tactrics.

[HRogge]

The only Sci-Fi militaries that I'm familar with that could defeat the Borg in all out war is the Galactic Empire, New Republic, & the Zentradi form Macross.

The 4th Empire would crush the borg...

[Graeme Dice]

The nukes that G'Kar gives Sheridan are rated at 300,000 Megatons. In my 1st post on this subject, I accidentally said gigatons in stead of megatons.

No, the nukes the G'Kar gives Sheridan are rated at 500 megatons, not 300,000 megatons.

However, the B5tech.com site has conflicting weapon loadouts for these ships.It is still a good site to go to. Epecially since it is somewhat related to this one. The site operator is an aquaintance of Wong.

Are you not referring to http://www.babtech-onthe.net/ ?

The numbers on www.b5tech.com can be said to be inaccurate at best, considering that they have overestimated the sizes of each ship by at least twice their actual lengths as seen on the series.

If you don't think tactics matter, let me ask you this. If you pit a M1-A tank against 5 police officers, who would win?If the tank is fighting well the tank would win. However, as was proven 5-6 years ago in LA, the tank is not fighting very well, police officers armrd with a bolt cutter & 9mm pistols can stop a tank cold in its tracks.

After the guy high-centres it himself on the freeway, not before.

Concerning B5 fire power vs Federation firepower...
According to the B5Tech.com, the averaege energy output of an EA plasma cannon on a Omega-class Destroyer is 3 megatons, with its max at 10 megatons.

Minbari Sharlin cruiser Neutron Laser(slicer-beam) is capable of an upper limit of 1,400,000 Terrawatts, or 33.3 megatons a second.

A Whitestar's Nuetron laser(quantum-gravimetric cannon) is capable of a upper limit 100,000 Terrawatt output.

EA Def-Sat is capable of 2.4 million Terrawatt Particle beam discharge.
What are the energy output ratings for TNG ship mounted phasers?

www.b5tech.com is not a valid source of weapons information, because they do not state their sources for these numbers. In fact, the following statements have just as much correctness as those do:
A .22 calibre rifle has the capability to destroy planets in a manner similarto the Death Star.
I am a Jedi Knight.

[Mechwolf]

The numbers on www.b5tech.com can be said to be inaccurate at best, considering that they have overestimated the sizes of each ship by at least twice their actual lengths as seen on the series.

Ship sizes comes from Tim Earls, CGI/Special Effects director for B5. Show me proof that these ships sizes are inaccurate. An Omega-class can be seen parked next to B5 in a 5th season episode, & it appaers to 1/5 the lenght of the 5 mile space station.

www.b5tech.com is not a valid source of weapons information, because they do not state their sources for these numbers.

B5tech.com does state sources & equations that are used to determine B5 weapon output. If you don't agree, show the flaw(s) in the equations. These equations are in the "Essays" sub-section, under the "Science & FAQs" section.

[Graeme Dice]

Ship sizes comes from Tim Earls, CGI/Special Effects director for B5. Show me proof that these ships sizes are inaccurate. An Omega-class can be seen parked next to B5 in a 5th season episode, & it appaers to 1/5 the lenght of the 5 mile space station.

Here is your proof of the actual sizes of the ships:

Those scalings are superior because they compare the ships to known reference measurements such as humans, instead of arguables like the length of B5.

B5tech.com does state sources & equations that are used to determine B5 weapon output. If you don't agree, show the flaw(s) in the equations. These equations are in the "Essays" sub-section, under the "Science & FAQs" section.

Yes, I read those and immediately started laughing. The guy argues that Earthforce armour has the ability to withstand 20X as much energy as iron without armour, and directs you to his armour page for the proof. He then uses this to figure out how much energy Earthforce weapons can direct on the target. On his armour page, he directs you to the weaponry page for proof of the armour's thermal abilities. Circular reasoning does not an argument make. He also uses the barrel diameter to determine bolt diameter instead of using bolt diameter to determine bolt diameter.

He also has no proof that the armour is 3m thick, or that the beam even penetrated 3 metres of the armour.

Then he goes and makes the assumption that the beam was somehow sustainable for longer periods of time than that shown in the episode even though the ship ceased firing before it ran out of target to hit.

He then for some reason chooses to measure the power output of continuous beam weapons in megatons. Not megatons per second, but just megatons.

Then he claims that his 38 kilotons per second lower limit is somehow much greater than 2 megatons, when it would take almost a minute of continuous firing to reach that energy level.

The next problem is in his plasma weaponry page. He assumes that the weapon burned entirely through the armour for no apparent reason.

I have no real problem with his impact calculations for the armour, although he explains them in much more complicated terms than their simple nature requires. He states without backing that Minbari armour reflects 80% of energy that hits it.

I also take issue with his completely unsupported speculation that all weapons are capable of over three times the output seen on the show.

He once again makes another completely unsupported assumption that the particle beams on Earth's defense satellittes will melt a continent. I don't know what show he was watching when he came up with that.

When discussing the Shadow Slicer beam's effect on the Narn cruiser, he assumes that the armour is 16 m without supporting evidence. He uses iron for the material that makes up a planet because the surface is red. Narns would hardly be be able to walk on a planet that was mostly iron due to the increased gravity. His number of 3.0*10^17 J (17 MT) for the Narn Heavy Cruiser isn't too far off what is feasible when compared to the 500 MT bombs.

He calls all measurements that can be used to make Sharlin's smaller "discrepancies" and ignores them instead of trying to make them fit.

All of numbers that simply use iron aren't incredibly far from being realistic, but the lower limits are much closer to the actual numbers than he would have you believe. In short, he does a lousy job of outlining his assumptions, and an even worse job of probiding his evidence for those assumptions.

[Master of Ossus]

OK, I'm getting confused here. Is this a thread about whether the ISA could defeat a Borg cube, in the way that is depicted in ST? Or is this a thread about who would win in all out war?

If it the 1st, the ISA would win against a single Borg cube in a similar way that the Federation does, only with the advantages of having weapons that are able to bypass Borg shields the same way that SW TL's are able to, but limited to destrucive yeilds a little above ST weapons.

However, if it is every Borg cube versus every member-races militaries of the ISA, then yes, the ISA would be outnumbered & defeated. But the Borg almost never engages in this fashion.

The only Sci-Fi militaries that I'm familar with that could defeat the Borg in all out war is the Galactic Empire, New Republic, & the Zentradi form Macross.

Master of Ossus Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2002 12:02 am Post subject:

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Star Wars "lasers" would be effective against the Borg for a number of reasons.

1. They are not lasers. This has been proven to almost everyone's satisfaction, and I don't want to go into this (which usually means I will have to, but please don't ask, anyway).
2. They fire plasma, or some other form of matter, which Borg do not seem to be able to adapt to.

I agree, & am familar with the proof of this. But would you not agree that B5 particle & plasma type weapons would be effective in the same way, with exception to the lower energy ratings of B5 weapons? If SW TLs are actually laser-induced particle beams(which I believe them to be) wouldn't other particle weapons form other Scf-Fi series have that same advantage, even with a lower energy yield?

3. The KE that a turbolaser imparts is spectacular. The Borg would not be able to protect themselves against this, even if they tried.

Again, I agree 100%.

I never claimed that the Borg would somehow be immune to any weapons from B5, I was just saying that the B5 weapons are insufficient to destroy Borg cubes, except in huge numbers-up situations. I have always found that argument stupid, and it is clearly inconsistent with what is depicted on camera in TNG.

[Master of Ossus]

Forgot to mention in "In The Begining" the Minbari Shargoti-class Dreadnought Dra-la-Fee(Black Star) tricked the Battlegroup that the EAS Lexington was in command of into a predetermined position to open a jump-point onto, destroying 1 Hyperion & 1 Nova. It then continued to attack the other Hyperion, Nova, & Olympus with conventional tactrics.

I forgot about that. You are quite correct, younger races have been able to do this. This one, however, seemed like more of a bi-product of an attack than an attack in and of itself. I really don't know how to express what I am trying to say, but obviously the Black Star was trying to wipe out the entire Earth fleet at the time, and that whether or not it destroyed some ships in jumping in would be of secondary importance to the attack once it was actually in real space. Your point stands, though. I withdraw my statement that a younger race has never been seen to do this. This would be an easy tactic to use against the Borg since Borg tactics are so simplistic and their behavior so predictable. Only its effectiveness is now open for questioning, and I assume that it would be able to do TREMENDOUS damage to a group of Borg ships.

[Master of Ossus]

I don't think that any ISA race has been seen to use the technique of opening jumpgates inside of other vessels. If they have, then please enlighten me on that, I really can think of no examples of such. And in In the Beginning Sheridan said that the jump engines on a Minbari ship were only accurate to within a few hundred meters.

just to point out..
in "end game", garibaldi sent jump coordinates to marcus in order for him to open a jumppoint within the atmosphere that is also close enough to the ground to execute a surprise attack.
it was stated in this scene that the coordinate have to be/are accurate to within a few feet.

That point is irrelevent. That jump gate was not opened inside of another ship, and there were several other factors that could have affected accuracy in that case. The coordinates might have been accurate to within a few feet but that doesn't necessarily mean that the ship's jump engines were. Also, Marcus' ship was built with Vorlon technology. The point has been withdrawn, though, I had forgotten about the Black Star's attack on the EA battle group. You guys are correct, but not for the reason above.

[Master of Ossus]

BTW, the firepower estimates you gave me (from B5tech) I think demonstrate that B5 firepower is far lower than Borg firepower, or even Federation firepower. Even the Sharlin is comparatively weak. In huge numbers, though, it would be possible for the ISA to destroy a very small number of cubes. In a conflict like the one that the Federation is involved with with the Borg, the ISA would be destroyed.

[adam warlock]

That jump gate was not opened inside of another ship,

i was pointing out jumppoint accuracy

The coordinates might have been accurate to within a few feet but that doesn't necessarily mean that the ship's jump engines were.

wrong.. it would be meaningless to give/determine coordinates accurate to that level IF the object that would be USING those coordinates doesnt have, or cant achieve, the same level of accuracy.

its like using a telescope to look at an object.. if the person using the telescope is given coordinates accurate to within mms, and the telescope is at most accurate to only within a few centimetres, the telescope would be near useless to accurately pin point the object.

Also, Marcus' ship was built with Vorlon technology.

all whitestars are built with vorlon technology, and whitestars are part of the ISA..

You guys are correct, but not for the reason above.

sorry if i had to correct u.

[Master of Ossus]

No, warlock, you can send coordinates that are accurate to a very small margin, even if the ship using them is not so accurate with its jump engines. Perhaps Garibaldi's device automatically gave coordinates that accurate (if his device was at all similar to GPS, then it would almost have to be that easy), even if a ship could not use them. It is probable that the device Garibaldi used to determine the coordinates had other uses, and probably ones that required a higher degree of accuracy than starship jump engines.

You guys are right, we have seen ships use tactics like you are proposing, but that is not an example of a demonstration of that capability. YOUR evidence was irrelevent. Mechwolf's was relevent.

[Mechwolf]

Master of Ossus Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2002 5:47 pm Post subject:

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BTW, the firepower estimates you gave me (from B5tech) I think demonstrate that B5 firepower is far lower than Borg firepower, or even Federation firepower. Even the Sharlin is comparatively weak. In huge numbers, though, it would be possible for the ISA to destroy a very small number of cubes

B5 weapon output estimates per weapon of the youger races are lower than Federation weapons. I agree. However the key here is that Federation ships do not appear to be able to fire more than 1 phaser strip & 1 PhoTorp launcher (with max of 10 torps at a time-ST:TNG Tech Manual) at a time, with exception to the Defiant. Case in point: In DS9 (B5 rip-off) We see a Galaxy-class fly right into a Cardasian/Dominion battlegroup firing only it's dorsal saucer phaser array. If it was able to fire more than 1 phaser at a time, we should have seen it firing it's ventral saucer phaser array as well since it's target was within the firing arcs of both phaser arrays. Or at the very least, at a different target within the arc of the ventral saucer phaser array.

Now, almost all B5 youger races' ships are able to fire most, or all of their weapons at once at either multiple targets, or concentrate them all (the ones in the appropriate firing arcs) on 1 target. We see EA Omega-class destroyers fire atleast 2 of their forward Heavy Pulse cannons at 1 target, in "Severed Dreams" 1 Omega did so at another Omega, which blocked those shots with its own heavy pulse cannons. Later we see another Omega fire both forward heavy laser cannons at yet another Omega, while its interceptors are firing at attacking Starfuries.
In "In The Begining", we see Minbari Sharlin & Shargoti cruisers firing multiple Neutron lasers at EA ships throughout the show. Also, according to Agents Of Gaming, as long as all weapons have power supplied to them, they are all allowed to fire at once. Afterwards, though, some will not be able to fire as soon as others for recharging reasons.

So, my point is that while Federation weapons are more powerful, they seem to be limited to firing only 1 of each type of weapon at a time, with exception to the Defiant. B5 younger races, on the other hand, seem able to fire all of their weapons at any targets within those weapons firing arcs, as long as said weapons have reached their required recharge time. I also think its important to note that Federatio phasers do not appear to have to recharge. In other words, they appear to be able to fire continously as long as they are being fed power to do so. Some B5 beam weapons are able to fire in such a way, but for only a short time, at the cost of diverting energy from other weapons, & at the cost of having a slight increase in recharge time after the firing is complete.

[Mechwolf]

Graeme Dice Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2002 3:47 pm Post subject:
Those scalings are superior because they compare the ships to known reference measurements such as humans, instead of arguables like the length of B5.

All canon & official sources say, in no uncertain terms, that the B5 satation is a little over 8km, or 5 miles long.

Also, you are wrong about that site. I wonder if you even noticed that Michael Wong is cited for checking the math. He makes reasonable assumptions about fictional material, just as Mr Wong made reasonable assumptions about the asteriods for which he used to help determine Turbo-laser output.