GW/WH40K modelling/gaming discussion thread

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2006-02-17 05:26am

WMA get the space marine Arm Sprues...each one comes with 2 shoulder pads

Yeah GW is very pricey why for $8.95 from GHQ I can get 5 Leopard 2 MBTS

Azazal · Post by **Azazal** » 2006-02-17 09:13am

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:(I'M LOOKING AT YOU, YOU BLUE-SKINNED FISHY ANIME COMMIE FREAKS. NEED A NEW CODEX MY POWER-ARMORED ASS).

[/rant]

But it's for the greater good

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2006-02-17 02:02pm

Azazal wrote:But it's for the greater good

*smacks Azazal around with a Diresword.*
Mon-keigh, the rise of Ynnead is the greater good.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2006-02-17 02:41pm

can i "kiss" the guy whose delaying our much needed codexes?

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2006-02-17 03:36pm

Utsanomiko wrote: Anyway, I think I've fixed the issue with the Marine list. I knocked off Furrious Charge from the command squad and another set of skills from the troops, freeing up 78 points. For now I have it reduced by another 25 by changing the Vet Sgt with Power fist to a normal sgt, which gave them room for 3 bikes + flamer. I guess I could take that 25 from something else if needed (the Champion has term honors, purity scrolls, and a plasma pistol, so that 25 pts may or may not be better spent on a Tactical Squad's Sergeant).
On the plus side, it reduces to a 500 point army of 2 troop units + commander rather easily.

I'll have to look at what you changed, exactly, but most of it sounds fine.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2006-02-20 01:30am

Well, here's your army first, with 1000 points:

HQ 1
Brother-Captain Antonius (166pts)
-Commander (75) with Storm Bolter (5), master-crafted (15) Thunder Hammer (30), Artificer Armour (20), Terminator Honours (15), Counter-attack/True Grit (3), Infiltration (3)

Command Squad (285 pts)
-5 Command Squad Marines (90),
-Veteran Sergeant Leonti: Bolt Pistol (0), Power Fist (15), Terminator Honours (15), Counter-attack/True Grit (3), Infiltration (3), 51
-Champion Modestus: Power hammer, combat shield (20), Terminator Honours (10), Purity Scrolls (5), Plasma Pistol (10), Iron Halo (25), Counter-attack/True Grit (3), Infiltration (3), 91
-Standard Bearer Eduard (25), Sacred Standard (20), Bolter (0), Counter-attack/True Grit (3), Infiltration (3), 66
-Apothecary Vasily: Narthecium & Reductor (25), Bolt Pistol/Chainsword (0), Counter-attack/True Grit (3), Infiltration (3) 46
-Brother Serafim: Meltagun (10), Counter-attack/True Grit (3), Infiltration (3), 31

Elite 1
Dreadnought (120 pts)
-Dreadnought (105) with Missile Launcher (10) OR Combat Arm w/ Flamer (10), Extra Armor (5)

Troops 1
Squad 2 (156 pts)
-Sergeant + 9 Tactical Space Marines (150), Flamer (6)

Troops 2
Squad 2 (170 pts)
-Sergeant + 9 Tactical Space Marines (150), Missile Launcher (10), Plasma gun (10)

Assault 1
Bike Squad (102 pts)
-3 Marines on Bikes (96), Flamer (6)

And here's it deployed at 499 Points:

HQ 1
Brother-Captain Antonius (163pts)
-Commander (75) with Storm Bolter (5), master-crafted (15) Thunder Hammer (30), Artificer Armour (20), Terminator Honours (15), Counter-attack/True Grit (3)

Troops 1
Squad 2 (156 pts)
-Sergeant + 9 Tactical Space Marines (150), Missile Launcher (10), Flamer (6)

Troops 2
Squad 2 (170 pts)
-Sergeant + 9 Tactical Space Marines (150), Missile Launcher (10), Plasma gun (10)

It's trimmed down to just the standard mandatory unit types, with the leader's Infiltration removed (he'd lose the ability anyway when joining a unit) and an extra missile launcher marine added (which you have enough parts for), although at 500 points it may be best to split those marines up into three units to spread the enemy's focus, and allow one of those weapon specialists more opportunities to fire.
I also ditched the 40-point vet sarge for these versions; it was 25 extra points for a unit not devoted to close-combat, unlike the term-honors Champion or the long-range extra punch with the Dread's missiles, for example.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2006-02-20 01:49am

So I DO have the parts for all those tactical weapons? And would a Heavy Bolter be better in the place of one?

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2006-02-20 02:11am

I'm quite certain you've got two missile launchers (1 per tac squad box), and you've definitely got enough legs and bits to include an extra marine for that purpose. There's always a couple BfM set Marines to fill out the bolter-toting guys, at worst (I'll want to keep that Sargeant with the close combat weapons, though; I've got a Death Company to maintain, and that means I need additional troops with $1.50 worth of CC weapons).

Points-wise, a Heavy Bolter wouldn't free you up many useful points at that army size, and I'm not sure it adds better weapon variety than a missile launcher (you do lack other anti-vehicle weapons, besides the short-range Meltagun).

I also thought of another way to split up the units besides 3 tactical squads, which would be to pull 5 Marines out of the Tactical squads and into a command squad. Then leave out the Marine with the Missile Launcher in Squad I and use those +25 points on that Vet Sgt with a power weapon that you wrote up originally. That leaves you with one less marine than the current 500pt list (commander with 5 marines as command squad, 7 each in Squad I and II), but you get a squad more focused on assault (commander and Veteran with power weapon), and allow Squad I to focus on assault/close support rather than juggling advancement vs heavy weapons.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2006-02-20 08:56pm

Right now the local Barnes and Noble is having a 75% off sale on all its GW products, which means that you can get a dreadnaught or some Warrior Tyranids for <$10. I am soooo going to get my fill before they are all gone, so I just thought I'd send everyone else a heads-up.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2006-02-20 11:39pm

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Right now the local Barnes and Noble is having a 75% off sale on all its GW products, which means that you can get a dreadnaught or some Warrior Tyranids for <$10. I am soooo going to get my fill before they are all gone, so I just thought I'd send everyone else a heads-up.

Yes yes, that's how Uts and I got our stockpiles.

However, much of it was purchased back when it was only 50% off. I'm not dissapointed or anything, mind you- I found out someone else came in RIGHT AFTER ME and bought most of the stuff I hadn't. So I had perfect timing. However, I need MORE!

If could could get me any of these from your B&N (in order of importance, also, all SM):
Bikes (single or squad, need 3 total)
Dreadnought
Tactical Squad
Veteran Squad
Command Squad

I would gladly reimburse you.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2006-02-21 05:28pm

I think I've formed up a decent use of my current Tyranids, in 500 and 750 points. Ideally I'd like to make them an anti-Space Marine force, but they don't exactly have enough weaponry to pack much punch against all that 4 Strength, +3 save infantry. Maybe once I expand them, the added swarms of Gaunts, Winged Warriors, Carnifex, and Winged Hive Tyrant will make a disparaging enough of a difference in troop numbers to compensate.

Total: 498 points
HQ: 144 points
-3 Warriors (42), ~34 points of biomorphs each (inc Barbed Strangler x1, Deathspitter x2)

Troops: 290 points
-10 Termagaunts (90)
-8 'Devourer' Gaunts with Toxin Sacs (2), Devourers (4), and Extended Carapaces (1) (88 total)
-8 Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs (2), Adrenal Glands +I (1), and Extended Carapaces (1) (112 total)
-4 Ripper Swarms (40) with Flesh Hooks (1)

Fast Attack: 20 points
-2 Toxin Spore mines (20)

For 750 points, I add thre rest of my Tyranids: 6 Genestealers from the BfM set and a unit of winged Warriors from my 2nd box (I'll need to either buy $12 wings for each or construct my own).

HQ: 144 points
-3 Warriors (42), ~34 points of biomorphs each (inc Barbed Strangler x1, Deathspitter x2)

Troops: 448 points
-6 Genestealers (96) with scuttlers (3)
-10 Termagaunts (90)
-8 'Devourer' Gaunts with Toxin Sacs (2), Devourers (4), and Extended Carapaces (1) (88 total)
-8 Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs (2), Adrenal Glands +I (1), and Extended Carapaces (1) (112 total)
-4 Ripper Swarms (40) with Flesh Hooks (1)

Fast Attack: 176 Points
-3 Winged Warriors (84), ~24 points of biomorphs each
-2 Toxin Spore mines (20)

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2006-02-28 01:09am

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Yes yes, that's how Uts and I got our stockpiles.

However, much of it was purchased back when it was only 50% off. I'm not dissapointed or anything, mind you- I found out someone else came in RIGHT AFTER ME and bought most of the stuff I hadn't. So I had perfect timing. However, I need MORE!

snip
I would gladly reimburse you.

Sorry, I missed the huge rush. I only got a few sets at 75% off and decided I'd come back later. Less than three days later, Orange County was cleaned out. I called a bunch of Barnes and Nobles and none had any left, except for some genestealers--which you better believe I bought!

Now I'm trying to think of how to best use my Brass Etch Eagles, which means that I want to buy some cheap WWi and WWII tanks and spam the aquilas all over them. What scale should I look for for my models to match with say, Space Marine Rinos?

Also, when will they make a model of the Emperor?

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2006-02-28 02:57am

I dropped by and picked up some stuff- mostly Tyranids that I planned on selling. I put them on hold untill I could charge it while using DPDP's member's card 10% discount. Although I didn't get there in time to pick up Genestealers, they entered all their 40K items as 75% clearance when we got back. Meaning I got over $300 of stuff, including the Battle for Macragge set, for about $80.

So now I've got 500-750 points of Tyranids. All I'd need is a box set, some more Gaunts and Genestealers, and maybe a Broodlord or Hive Tyrant, and I could pump it up to a nice large-sized army.

Bob the Gunslinger wrote: Now I'm trying to think of how to best use my Brass Etch Eagles, which means that I want to buy some cheap WWi and WWII tanks and spam the aquilas all over them. What scale should I look for for my models to match with say, Space Marine Rinos

Probably around 1/60 or 1/72, going just by the size of the miniatures.

Also, when will they make a model of the Emperor?

If I had gotten into 40k 10 years ago, I probably would have put money on a decade or so, if at all. Now I would put money on simply 'never'. The Emperor and the confrontation on the Eye of Horus seems to be a custom-built Mecca for modelers, like a personal journey that can't be found, packaged and put into a Happy Meal. Or something.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2006-02-28 05:36am

$300 worth????

So, what are you selling, and at what price..? I'm still looking for tyranids, especially warriors and hive tyrants, as well as dreadnoughts and command squads.

The one thing I got enough of was the Terminators. I can't believe they originally wanted $50 for the crappy mccragge-style termies! They have none of the poseability or detail of the regular boxed set, as well as completely lacking the accessory sprue full of chainfists, cannons and other goodies.
The interchangeable arms on the dreadnoughts are cool, though.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2006-02-28 05:39am

Oh, and it's going to take me years and 100s of dollars to get the experience and bits I'd need to make the Emperor. Why can't they just have some damn $100 forgeworld kit and pretend they're doing us a favor?

No, wait, I take that back.

They shoulf have free instructions on a variety of Emperor Customizations like they have with the Adeptus Custodes.

Azazal · Post by **Azazal** » 2006-02-28 10:43am

Bob the Gunslinger wrote: Now I'm trying to think of how to best use my Brass Etch Eagles, which means that I want to buy some cheap WWi and WWII tanks and spam the aquilas all over them. What scale should I look for for my models to match with say, Space Marine Rinos?

Tamiya has come out with a nice line of 1/48th scale kits, luckily they fit in with 40K size wise pretty good. You can kit bash them to make 40k vehicles pretty easily - Here's the current line at Hobby Link Japan, but you should be able to find them at any decent hobby store.

Bob the Gunslinger wrote: Also, when will they make a model of the Emperor?

About the same time they make the primarch models, actually as a FW kit I could see it selling really really well, maybe someday....

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2006-02-28 04:07pm

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:$300 worth????

So, what are you selling, and at what price..? I'm still looking for tyranids, especially warriors and hive tyrants, as well as dreadnoughts and command squads.

Only 4 Hive tyrants (old, but should still have use especially with a new weapons sprue) and one box of the old Terminators. My plan was to auction one of each next week at $10 and watch the prices. I picked up some Gaunts and 2 Warrior boxes, but now I'm holding on to them and the BfM tyranids and probably will paint up that army first, using some Tamiya acryllics that I have available.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-03-02 03:42pm

Well, here's your army first, with 1000 points:

Ok, I played marines for two years, and learnt quite a bit about the difference between the portrayal of units, and their real abilities, and I went through a helluva lot of army lists doing it! Now, it all depends on personal taste, and of course what type of terrain and what opponents you play, but for me, there would be a few dire changes needed to that list.

1. Bikes. Just don't go there. EVER! Quite possibly the worst Space Marine unit, they are little more than normal marines with some more movement. They get owned in CC, owned at long range, owned at short range. Just forget they even exist.
2. Command squads. I've always been against them, however I did take one to Conflict Manchester, having beefed it up to ridiculously beasty proportions (about 310 pts!). Needless to say, I got owned in two of my three games. They are on foot, so move too slowly for an assault unit, and to make them any kind of reasonable force in CC, you have to spend a lot of points on them, far too many in fact. You are always much better off with an assault squad led by a power fist wielding vet sarge, and a jump pack equipped chaplain. IF you had a rhino transport for them, then maybe. But you don't, so they will just get shot up at long range while slowly foot slogging it across the table.
3. Commander. As I said, you're better off with a chaplain, but if you really want a Captain, don't give him a storm bolter, he loses his extra attack, which is a very bad thing! You should really be looking at Termi honours, power weapon, plasma pistol, for 6 attacks on the charge. I did have a captain like this, but updated to the flying chaplain as a foot slogging HQ unit doesn't have enough tactical flexibility. Artificer armour isn't worth the points, neither are thunder hammers. Master crafted, however, is usually a good investment if you have some spare points.
4. Dreadnoughts are good. Very good. Go for the lascannons and close combat arm for a heavy weapon shot that doesn't take up an entire units firing (good for picking off or finishing off tanks and transports). This way, you don't lose the CC strength when its crunch time.
5. Tac squads. Those two squads you have there are entirely pointless. Best thing you can do is to take two squads of 6, though 5 if you're strapped for points (6 is better for morale but I usually use 5). Give them missile launchers, and sit them in cover close to your edge of the board. Shoot stuff. If you're facing swarm armies, use frag, if its tanks or marines, use kraks. Nice and versitile. careful of that fallback distance though, you don't want them running off the end of the board!

That army list as it is will get completely owned if you're playing anything like a decent opponent. When making army list, you HAVE to consider the tactical application of each unit. Those tac squads are useless, the bikes are useless, the Comm squad is beasty but slow, the Dread is good...
Personally, I'd be going for something more like this (naturally this involves more investment, but I don't know what you already have soo...):

HQ:
Chaplain Reclusiarch with Jump Pack, plasma pistol, terminator honours, frag grenades, master crafted weapon: 151 pts

Troops:
2x Tactical squad with 5 marines, with missile launcher and plasma gun: 190 pts

Fast Attack:
Assault squad of 8 marines (inc sarge), with Vet sarge (see below), 2 plasma pistols, furious charge (due to chapter trait), frag grenades: 185 pts
Vet Sarge: Power fist, terminator honours, plasma pistol, frag grenades: 77 pts

Elites:
Dreadnought with twin linked lascannon, spotlight: 126 pts

Heavy Support:
Predator Annihalator with Lascannons, spotlight: 126 pts
Vindicator : 125 pts

Total 1000pts

Sit the Tac squads at the back in cover, shoot stuff, then when they get closer, use the plasma guns. Hide the Dread and Vindicator nehind cover in set up, then pop the dread out and shoot, and move the Vindicator forward until it can shoot a nice big batch of infantry. Sit the Predator at the back, in a position where it can shoot lots of armoured targets like tanks, but try to minimize the return frie from heavy weapons. Meanwhile, the chaplain and assault squad should move forward, sticking behind cover, until you can jump out and assault. Thats 4 plasma pistols in that squad, a possible total of 8 plasma shots. Scary. Plus, thats 6 power weapon attacks from the Chaplain on the charge, 4 power fist attacks from the vet sarge, and loadsa other attacks from the 7 normal guys. They all have furious charge from the trait, meaning they get initiative and strength plus 1. This is a VERY beardy squad, and is a whole lot more flexible than your command squad.
This is my army list, and it took a lot to beat it. Its weakness are usually enemies like Tyranids who are somehow able to defeat the assault squad, and kill enough of my firepower that their assault troops get across the board to my back line (However, I did manage to assault a carnifex with my Assault squad, and kill it in one go, with no return losses

)

Obviously, this list might be a bit much for you to get all in one go, but having tried most of the list options available to me, this is definitely the best marines army list I have come across, having tried infiltrating my entire army, putting them in rhino's, giving them allies, having no vehicles, having all shooters, having lotsa assaulters...everything, this has been the best for me.

Hope it helps.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2006-03-02 04:53pm

Lazarus wrote: (naturally this involves more investment, but I don't know what you already have soo...):

He has exactly what was listed, minus the bikes. We tried to fill out the list from there using a light amount of assault and anti-armor capabilities, but admittedly I'm only familiar with Combat Patrol games and some various general advice.

They all have furious charge from the trait, meaning they get initiative and strength plus 1.

He's got two traits already, but I guess he could trade one for No Mercy, No Respite to get Furious Charge.

Obviously, this list might be a bit much for you to get all in one go

Definitely. He only picked any units because they were ~$60, at 60% off, and I highly doubt he's in the mood to plop down another $130. Although I may end up with a pair of Landspeeders he can buy at that rate. I guess we can look for ways to stick with 500 point games, since the 1000pt is admittedly inflated.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2006-03-02 05:38pm

I might as well post my 1,000-point list, as it's probably a bit borked as well.
It's pretty light on the heavy weapons, but I tried to fill that in with several melta weapons. I'll still need to pick up some Assault Marines and spare jumppacks for the Death Company, look into getting a Chaplain for 500-point armies, and manage my 1500-point list a bit better than simply adding a Sanguinary High Priest, 2 more speeders, 2 vet Sgts, and a small Dev squad.

Space Marines Happiness Patrol
996-point Army List:

HQ 1
Brother-Captain Iscariot (110 pts)
-Commander (75) with Power Sword (15), Plasma Pistol (15), and Purity Seals (5)

Honor Guard (140 pts)
-5 Honor Guard Marines (90), with Plasma pistol (5), Power Weapon (10), Meltagun (10), Standard Bearer with Company Banner (25)

Razorback Transport (105)
-Razorback with Overcharged Engines (85), Twin-linked Lascannon turret (20)

-Death Company Marines (number determined by Death Company rule)

Troops 1
Squad I (150 pts)
- Sergeant + 8 Tactical Space Marines (135), Rocket Launcher (10)

Troops 2
Squad II (146 pts)
-Sergeant + 8 Tactical Space Marines (135), Rocket Launcher (10)

Assault 1
Squad III (216 Points)
-Sergeant + 8 Assault Space Marines (198), Melta Bombs x9 (18 ), Plasma Pistol (5)

Assault 2
Land Speeder Group (130 Points)
-Land Speeder Tornado (80)
-Land Speeder (50)

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2006-03-02 05:54pm

It's a small army, so it isn't so much of a big deal, and it is also a bit of personal taste, but you don't have any good hard armor to rely on there (obviously). With Marines it isn't all that necessary but as an original Guard player I find the presence of a Predator or two or at least a Dreadnought to be a nice security blanket. They give you some heavy weapon punch, plus a little more overall firepower, and will keep the enemy on his toes, especially if your opponent already knows you (the mixed armored and infantry force forcing your opponent to field heavy weapons, splitting his effective firepower).

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2006-03-02 06:06pm

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:It's a small army, so it isn't so much of a big deal, and it is also a bit of personal taste, but you don't have any good hard armor to rely on there (obviously). With Marines it isn't all that necessary but as an original Guard player I find the presence of a Predator or two or at least a Dreadnought to be a nice security blanket. They give you some heavy weapon punch, plus a little more overall firepower, and will keep the enemy on his toes, especially if your opponent already knows you (the mixed armored and infantry force forcing your opponent to field heavy weapons, splitting his effective firepower).

My original 1500pt list included a Predator and a Drednought, but I picked up quite a few items from that B&N sale and chose to halt my expenses for now. I guess I could try selling a couple speeders and my extra Command Squad on eBay and buy a Tank & Dread.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-03-03 12:45pm

Troops 1
Squad I (150 pts)
- Sergeant + 8 Tactical Space Marines (135), Rocket Launcher (10)

The marines. They do nothing!
If you're going to have a squad like this always avoid giving it this many marines, with a heavy weapon all it will do, and rightly so, is sit on the board edge and shoot hard targets. The extra marines will never be able to shoot anything, and frankly if they ever are in range, you've probabbly lost by that point. Just use either 5 or 6 man units, save the points for more guns!
Random point, I once designed an Imperial Guard purely infantry army with a total of 21 heavy weapons (missile launchers, heavy bolters and autocannons)! Bring it on! Unfortunately, although I started the army, I never completed it, so if anyone is interested in 4 squads of guard with 2 autocannons, a heavy bolter, 3 missile launchers, 3 mortars and a command squad, you know where to come! Actually I've got loadsa space marines stuff I could sell as well...

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2006-03-03 05:10pm

That's what I thought about them, but it was late in the evening and I was grabbing for straws to find them a purpose.
I've already got better assault troops, so I'll try moving them to a place for shooting...

Troops 1
Squad I (85 pts)
- Sergeant + 4 Tactical Space Marines (75), Rocket Launcher (10)

Troops 2
Squad II (85 pts)
-Sergeant + 4 Tactical Space Marines (75), Rocket Launcher (10)

Troops 3
Squad III (110 pts)
-Sergeant + 5 Tactical Space Marines (90), Plasma Cannon (20)

There, fits with what I own and even saves some points. I was also thinking of buying a lascannon Marine for my 1500-point army, which for now basically adds a small anti-troop Dev squad, another Land Speeder group, a Veteran Assault Sgt w/ Power Fist, a Veteran Honor Guard Sgt with Power Weapon, and the remainder adds a Sanguinary High Priest to lead the Death Company. So I think I've got better troop management and anti-armor roles for now, untill I pick up a Predator, a Dreadnought, and create a Chaplain with a jumppack (with an accompanying 5 assault marines).

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-03-06 05:28pm

Thats looking much better, I used to play someone who had a Blood Angels army that had a dev squad with 4 plasma cannons. Massive target, but my god, when they hit you know about it.

I used to use dev squads quite a bit myself in 3rd edition, I just popped them behind a 7 man squad which acting as cover under the old rules. With the new edition though, they basically became a massive target. If they work for you fine, but not my favourite unit anymore, however if I'm right thats a blood angels army you have there?if so, NEVER put a dev squad with it. The rage rule means they can just randomly run forwards sometimes, meaning you lose out on shooting that turn.
To be honest, i was really quite disapointed with the new marines codex; they kept all the useless crap like bikes and scouts, added a bit more useless crap, and fixed a few things that needed fixing. Not bad, but more of a redraft than a new codex I thought, marines really could have done with something to compete with the likes of Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons etc (my arch nemesisisesiseess).
Looking good with the assaults as well, remember to use the plasma pistols, they're always good to hit marines with.
I always used to stay away from stuff like putting traits in, despite my army obviously being Ultramarines, until i just got completely fed up of chaos armies with gribbly daemon princes or greater daemons that charge you, then your opponent goes 'right I have 18 attacks cos of mark of gribbliness, and I hit on 1+ cos of curse of beardiness, and I kill on 1+ cos you're marines, oh yeah and if I kill any of them your whole army has to take a morale check at -8 cos of my sigil of beastiness'. Cos marines sure can compete with this shit.