Forceful Occupations

[Vader of Borg]

I am wondering how the Empire could keep order if it did manage to conquer the Federation.

Look what is happening in Iraq. The war is costing the US $400 billion a year. It is true that over 30,000 Iraqis have been lost for over 2000 American lives but the war is costing the US $400 billion a year. The US GNP is only $12 trillion.

It could just kill 1 million federation citizens for every Imperial citizen killed and just accept whatever loses any rebellion managed to inflict on it.

I am not sure of the total military personel in the Empire. A very conservative estimate would be around 250 million soldiers assuming 9700 troops per ISD (Star Wars New Essential Gude to Vehicles and Vessels) and 25,000 star destroyers in the entire fleet.

This may seem like a large number but the Federation has 150 planets and assuming 5 billion people per planet, that is 750 billion people total. The Empire could not afford to waste its entire armed forces occupying the Federation since it would need to defend the Home galaxy from possible alien invasions.

Whie such a strategy might make sense in terms of pure attrition the insurrgency could simply bleed the Empire economically. The Empire would have to pay a very high opportunity cost for each Federation planet it conquered because the resources spent subjugating, patrolling, and irradicating, could be better used in the home gallaxy or building more ISDs.

There is one more point. While the Empire might be able to produce a tie fighter every hour, that fighter must have material costs, especially with the outrageous claimed power levels of Imperial weaponry. I have never seen any evidence that the Empire has access to replicators. Yet we know from Deep Space Nine that the Federation has access to self-replicating cloakable mines which it could use to mine huge swaths of Federation space using a scorched earth policy. While the Empire might be able to detect and destroy many of these mines, it would still take loses as civilian ships sucumbed. The bottom line is that the mines cost less to replicate than it costs to rebuild destroyed Imperial ships.


.

[Lord Revan]

those mines still need raw material to replicate from and an ISD can withstand the detonation of several of those mines at the same time, Also imperial forces are several order magnitute larger then what you say and then the solution what can be used in the milkyway but not in SW galaxy due certain non technical issues, meaning use the massive number CIS equipment they got after the Clonewars ended.

[WyrdNyrd]

Firstly:
The Empire has some massive advantages that the US does not - A dictatorial government with no free press, and no other factions to appease.

They don't need to "occupy" the Federation, with a Stormie on every street. They can just use the Death Star or a BDZ operation on a couple of those 150 planets until the rest beg to be allowed to serve the Empire.

There're no humanitarian concerns or international pressures to prevent it.

Secondly:
That the 25,000 Star Destroyers number is disputed as "minimalist", given the requirements of policing an entire galaxy with over 12 million inhabited planets. But even if we accept it, Star Destroyers are not the only ships in the Empire!

There are hundreds, if not thousands of other types, including specialist troop-carriers with even higher troop capacities.

Trying to estimate troop numbers based off of just one ship type is so short-sighted, I can only guess that you're just trolling for kicks, not being serious at all.

I doubt too many people will even bother responding to your trolling, except for bored, brown-nosing newbies like myself.

[The Grim Squeaker]

This may seem like a large number but the Federation has 150 planets and assuming 5 billion people per planet, that is 750 billion people total.

That's arguable considering how many of them are colonies and the extremely low level of indutrialization.

I have never seen any evidence that the Empire has access to replicators.

Construction droids on Coruscant ring a bell? Automated droids that destroy multi-kilometer high skyscrapers and spit out brand new multi-kilometer high skyscrapers within a short period of time?
That's far above anything we've seen Fed civilian tech do, military repli-tech can't even make a new shuttle.
World destroyers are another example since they exhibit some form of matter transmutation and spit out almost anything, SD's, droids, automated droid TIE's, etc.

I am not sure of the total military personel in the Empire. A very conservative estimate would be around 250 million soldiers assuming 9700 troops per ISD (Star Wars New Essential Gude to Vehicles and Vessels) and 25,000 star destroyers in the entire fleet.

You're forgetting the personel apart from stormtroopers on the SD's, planetary defense forces, the normla troops (Not the elite terror guard stromtroopers) and the many thousnads of non SD ships in the fleet (Hundreds of thousands of smaller ships, all with a crew of their own).

It could just kill 1 million federation citizens for every Imperial citizen killed and just accept whatever loses any rebellion managed to inflict on it

Not sure what you're saying, but the Imperials could simply BDZ a few fed planets as retaliation for any insurgency, they did it on highly populated SW worlds (Rampa 1,2 in the Han solo trilogy, or Alderaan [not a bdz but still] etc').
Any fed group will have trouble when they can't take over a planet and if they manage to hold any ground will be blasted into the planets mantle.

They might take over a SW ship by a miracle and treachery, but they wouldn't have the resources to reverse-engineer the technology or build any more ships, and they would need to get agents versed on actually piloting a ship millenia ahead of their own tech.

[Sarevok]

No the Empire would not have any difficult occupying the Federation at all. They have the manpower to oppress the entire SW galaxy and fight a civil war with Rebels. The Federation would be a walk in the park in comparision to that. And mines may not present any difficulty for them at all since they use hyper drive.

[harbringer]

Vaders topic regurgitates the mine tactic that has been debunked before for many reasons including the sensors the Imperium use (you might visually disguise the mine but its footprint is still there.).

As for the cost of war that only applies so far as the population as a whole provides some value (other than the entertainment of watching Fed Vs Rancour boxing matches). Otherwise you BDZ as others pointed out or use gas/poison or viral plagues to remove the threat. If the population actually did something the Empire valued more than the terrorisim then they would doubtless expend any effort to gain control. I might also point out here that the Empire will certainly free forces up if needed by annihilating planetry populations if it is warranted ("This planet - was it called vulcan? - exterminate it and send the 2001st to earth").

[LaCroix]

*sigh*

Percentage of armed civilians in Iraq : Bigger 0%, i think about 25% (guess, they have a lot of kalashnikovs over there)
Percentage of armed civilians in UFP: 0.0%

Also, shut down the replicators. I don't think a private household replicator could replicate a phaser, but since Fedtech is easyly hacked and modified, it could be. Since there is no means of production exept for replicating, you could starve out any insurgency.

Btw, The Imperium HAS replicators. They replicate whole buildings. They just dont like them that much, since (as also stated by Feddies), the replicated material is noticeable different from "real" things. Also, replication will be very expensive energy-wise. Normal production is usually more efficient than replication.
Normally, you don't need to control the molecular structure of an product completely, lower tech is cheaper and good enough.
A "normal" assemply line would take some hours to create the first product, but then it can spit out multiple items per second. Replication is only good when you need one piece FAST. And it will be more expensive.

Back to the UFP:

An insurgency at such local scale will not last very long against the imps.

1. Fed people are cattle. If they don't suffer in normal life (which they would not under imperial ruling, only the Starfleet would be taken out into camps), they will just go on and live their life. Economy would have a big boom unter the imperium, which would be encouraging trade and reintroduce money.

2. UPF is far behind in technology. The SW-rebels where nearly completely defeted in ANH, if there wasn't that one super hero in his tiny x-wing, and the force with him (The attack with only the Deathstar was a strategical idiocy, and many faults in tactical operation were made).

An attack with a handful ISDs on the UPF would destroy whole starfleet, and since there is no private ship ownership and all shipyards will be conquered/destroyed easyly, there is no supply for potentional rebels. Insurgency would be planet-bound. Some stray ships can be tracked down and captured easy, since the imps are way faster and have better sensor range.

Therefore, it is well under control and can be handled by air. Also, an insurgency lives by the support of people. They are in bad supply of weapons, and the only things they could destroy are their own (conquered) buildings.

Also, Imps do not hesitate to melt continents or whole planets to make a point, which would lead to the typical comment "I don't like the Imperium, too, I really hate them, but there is nothing I can do!" You don't support insurgents when it could result in total planetary destrutcion. People love their lives.

Also, Imperial propaganda is very effective, they could turn nearly everything into an attack by rebels.

Self-replicating mines:
First, a mine needs enough matter (metal and explosive material) to replicate another (and an energy supply).

Thus, it would not work ad infinitum, even if it could collect the metal fragments of the blown up mines, it would need some explosive from anywhere (remember, replicators do reassemble matter, they do NOT create it out of energy) even if the could rearrange matter to turn it into explosive material, there would be a loss in matter at each detonation.

That system works only if the mines blow up a ship and replicate the wrecks into new mines. If there is no debris, the minefield thins out.

Problem:
You cant secure a big terrain with that. Thats why it was used at the wormhole. they KNEW the Dominion HAD to come out of it. Such a thing is called chokepoint/bottleneck. That's what mine fields are for!

The imps can pop out anywhere they like and are orders of magnitude faster than Feds. Where to lay such a field?

Also, an single ISD could take hundreds if not thousands of those mines without a dent. As soon as they start exploding, they know it and would start cleaning the space with firepower never seen before in that quadrant.

If they don't detect them before (you know, all sorts of sensors at least 20000 years ahead of fed tech.)

Also, you need ships and supplys to start such minefields, which brings up the point that most of it would be destroyed well before they can organize a resitance (big clash of titans like against the borg, they would likely use the same tactics - gather a big fleet and try to stop those ships. )

[Vader of Borg]

I am not intentionally trying to be stupid or juvenile but at the same time I would hardly call myself a "serious" debater. I am a newbie. I simply don't have time for exhaustive research.

I believe that constantly refining the debate to more and more specific and technical points whre fewer and fewer people have the resources to trully participate is not any fun at all. Of course, it the purpose of the debate is to reach an actual conclusion, than this approach may be best.

You might then say that I have no place on this sight, but as a Pro-Trek "debater" I like to mix it up in a stronghold of the "Dark Side".

Does anyone have a realistic estimate for total Imperial troop count?
I would not even know where to begin but I would guess the number would actually be in the low trillions.

Even so, to occupy the entire Milky Way Galaxy, the Empire would need to send a significant portion of its total forces assuming the galaxies are roughly the same size. This would lead it vulnerable to the Rebels and other potential threats on the homefront.

The point I was trying to make is an economic one. It is the concept of opportunity cost. Although the Empire may be thousands of orders of magnitute more powerful than the Federation, it is still better at some things than it is at other things. While the Empire may have the resources to destroy every Federration planet, it could better use those resources destroying Rebel planets or conquering other galaxies with more advanced technology. So the Empire would be better off not setting foot in the Milky Way in the first place.

An insurrgency would target civilians and infrastructure first as well as Imperial troops. The civilians would not be protected by body armor or personal force shields so they could be vulnerable to terrorist tactics and photon bombs. It would be cheaper for insurgents to build or replicate bombs than it would be for the Empire to build new equipment and replace lost civilians. In short, the Empire would spend more comparatively in the long run occupying than the insurrencents would spend comparatively in the long run destroying. If the Empire destroyed every Federation planet, it would not be able to use those resources. If the Empire destroyed every Federation planet and then subjugated Romulan or Klingon planets, it would face an even greater insurrgency.

The Empire could simply poison or plague the entire population, then take the resources once the poison cleared but to ensure success they would need to keep the process gooing for a long period of time since Federation medical technology may be as advanced as Imperial medical technology (there is no evidence that Imperial medical technolgoy is superior) and may be able to counter most threats. Such a waste of time is inefficient.

There may be peaceful races in the Milky Way yet to be discovered who are more powerful than the Empire that mind their own affairs unless provoked so public opinion might matter. Even the Borg have not explored the entire Milky way so there is no way to prove such races do not exist (although there is also no way to prove they do exist).

The purpose of this post is more to see the error in my thinking than to make a serious argument.

[Waddles McGee]

I am wondering how the Empire could keep order if it did manage to conquer the Federation.

Look what is happening in Iraq. The war is costing the US $400 billion a year. It is true that over 30,000 Iraqis have been lost for over 2000 American lives but the war is costing the US $400 billion a year. The US GNP is only $12 trillion.

It could just kill 1 million federation citizens for every Imperial citizen killed and just accept whatever loses any rebellion managed to inflict on it.

I am not sure of the total military personel in the Empire. A very conservative estimate would be around 250 million soldiers assuming 9700 troops per ISD (Star Wars New Essential Gude to Vehicles and Vessels) and 25,000 star destroyers in the entire fleet.

Assuming you know anything about the Star Wars universe, the Empire just doesn't own a few rocks; they own an entire galaxy. It's larger than ours, and has millions of planets. Let's take the figure guessed earlier, 12 Million, and multiply that by 5 Bill per planet. That's 60 Centillion (Cent=6 If I'm not mistaken) Soldiers at their disposal. 60 Centillion. If they poured a third of that into the Milky Way, the Federation would get stomped flat.

This may seem like a large number but the Federation has 150 planets and assuming 5 billion people per planet, that is 750 billion people total. The Empire could not afford to waste its entire armed forces occupying the Federation since it would need to defend the Home galaxy from possible alien invasions.

Ahh, but the evidence we just presented contradicts this doesn't it?

Whie such a strategy might make sense in terms of pure attrition the insurrgency could simply bleed the Empire economically.

Nonsense. The Empire would NEVER run out of resources in a fight with the Federation. With the amount they have, it's just not possible.

The Empire would have to pay a very high opportunity cost for each Federation planet it conquered because the resources spent subjugating, patrolling, and irradicating, could be better used in the home gallaxy or building more ISDs.

We just did this, didn't we? The Empire's huge. It has lots of resources. That means they can afford to pursue OTHER endeavors while defending their home. They've got planets to BLOW UP for christ's sake!

There is one more point. While the Empire might be able to produce a tie fighter every hour, that fighter must have material costs, especially with the outrageous claimed power levels of Imperial weaponry. I have never seen any evidence that the Empire has access to replicators.

It's called a WORLD DEVISTATOR, dipshit. Look it up sometime.

Yet we know from Deep Space Nine that the Federation has access to self-replicating cloakable mines which it could use to mine huge swaths of Federation space using a scorched earth policy. While the Empire might be able to detect and destroy many of these mines, it would still take loses as civilian ships sucumbed.

WRONG. Did you even READ the main site, or are you a bored troll? 1 Shot from the Slave 1 on a Galaxy Class starship would destroy it. 1 Shot from the Galaxy on the Slave 1 does nothing; so what in the hell makes you think that if torpedoes won't work, fucking mines will?

The bottom line is that the mines cost less to replicate than it costs to rebuild destroyed Imperial ships.

Yes, but that means nothing if the mines don't do jack shit, doesn't it?

YOU FAIL.

Scifi

[Vader of Borg]

sciefifan

You do realize that swearing only makes you seem unintelligent which further hurts the credibility of your argument

[Lord Revan]

like it's said the Galactic Empire has more then enough resourses to care of the UFP and the AQ/BQ major powers (Klingons, Romulans and so forth). UFP Starfleet doesn't have anything that could hurt the Empire, Also why should the Empire need to occupy the whole of Milkyway, the terrotory of the Federation, Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire combinied makes up only a very small portion of the galaxy.

[Manus Celer Dei]

sciefifan

You do realize that swearing only makes you seem unintelligent which further hurts the credibility of your argument

[Waddles McGee]

I am not intentionally trying to be stupid or juvenile but at the same time I would hardly call myself a "serious" debater. I am a newbie. I simply don't have time for exhaustive research.

Then you find the time to debate? Get the fuck out.

I believe that constantly refining the debate to more and more specific and technical points whre fewer and fewer people have the resources to trully participate is not any fun at all. Of course, it the purpose of the debate is to reach an actual conclusion, than this approach may be best.

Welcome to SD.net.

You might then say that I have no place on this sight, but as a Pro-Trek "debater" I like to mix it up in a stronghold of the "Dark Side".

I'm a Pro-trek debater, too. But I know not when to post.

Does anyone have a realistic estimate for total Imperial troop count?
I would not even know where to begin but I would guess the number would actually be in the low trillions.

See previous post.

Even so, to occupy the entire Milky Way Galaxy, the Empire would need to send a significant portion of its total forces assuming the galaxies are roughly the same size. This would lead it vulnerable to the Rebels and other potential threats on the homefront.

There aren't any major threats to the Empire besides the Rebel Alliance. Assuming this is Pre ANH, this isn't an issue.

The point I was trying to make is an economic one. It is the concept of opportunity cost. Although the Empire may be thousands of orders of magnitute more powerful than the Federation, it is still better at some things than it is at other things. While the Empire may have the resources to destroy every Federration planet, it could better use those resources destroying Rebel planets or conquering other galaxies with more advanced technology. So the Empire would be better off not setting foot in the Milky Way in the first place.

They would gain more than they'd lose, frankly. In Star Trek as of Nemesis, they'd only explored 10% of the galaxy. The Empire comes in, conquers the Federation and major powers, gains massive resources, and more soldiers. Win-win.

An insurrgency would target civilians and infrastructure first as well as Imperial troops. The civilians would not be protected by body armor or personal force shields so they could be vulnerable to terrorist tactics and photon bombs. It would be cheaper for insurgents to build or replicate bombs than it would be for the Empire to build new equipment and replace lost civilians. In short, the Empire would spend more comparatively in the long run occupying than the insurrencents would spend comparatively in the long run destroying.

The Federation's people aren't used to violence; 1 look at an AT-AT staring at them and they'd shit their pants. If necessary, they destroy a planet or two to keep them in line.

If the Empire destroyed every Federation planet, it would not be able to use those resources. If the Empire destroyed every Federation planet and then subjugated Romulan or Klingon planets, it would face an even greater insurrgency.

They wouldn't destroy every Federation planet unless conquering the Federation was a lost cause. In which case, they have an entire galaxy with primitive tech at their fingertips.

The Empire could simply poison or plague the entire population, then take the resources once the poison cleared but to ensure success they would need to keep the process gooing for a long period of time since Federation medical technology may be as advanced as Imperial medical technology (there is no evidence that Imperial medical technolgoy is superior)

So, you're saying that even though everything else in SW is vastly superior technologically speaking, medical sciencs is neglected? Makes perfect sense to me.

and may be able to counter most threats. Such a waste of time is inefficient.

You forget the basics of germs. If a person from, say, Afghanistan had what they considered the common cold, sneezed and shook my hand while I had just gotten over the common cold, I'd be susceptable to his illness. Point: Different environments, different immunities.

There may be peaceful races in the Milky Way yet to be discovered who are more powerful than the Empire that mind their own affairs unless provoked so public opinion might matter. Even the Borg have not explored the entire Milky way so there is no way to prove such races do not exist (although there is also no way to prove they do exist).

There might be races more advanced than the Empire, but I don't think you'll find one force as large.

The purpose of this post is more to see the error in my thinking than to make a serious argument.

The error in your thinking is simple: You haven't accepted official power estimations from the SW Technical Guide known as SW:AOTC ICS.

Scifi

[Waddles McGee]

sciefifan

You do realize that swearing only makes you seem unintelligent which further hurts the credibility of your argument

Using my cussing to deny parts of my argument is a bannable offense. Of course, you'd know that if you read the rules..

I'm tired, angry, and in pain, so yeah I'm cussing. Get the fuck over it. The internet is not your mom.

Scifi

[Stark]

I am not intentionally trying to be stupid or juvenile but at the same time I would hardly call myself a "serious" debater. I am a newbie. I simply don't have time for exhaustive research.

I believe that constantly refining the debate to more and more specific and technical points whre fewer and fewer people have the resources to trully participate is not any fun at all. Of course, it the purpose of the debate is to reach an actual conclusion, than this approach may be best.

You might then say that I have no place on this sight, but as a Pro-Trek "debater" I like to mix it up in a stronghold of the "Dark Side".

You're not going to make any friends on a board like this complaining a sci-fi debate is too technical. You're already describing your opponents as 'the enemy', so appeals to emotion can't be far away.

Does anyone have a realistic estimate for total Imperial troop count?
I would not even know where to begin but I would guess the number would actually be in the low trillions.

Even so, to occupy the entire Milky Way Galaxy, the Empire would need to send a significant portion of its total forces assuming the galaxies are roughly the same size. This would lead it vulnerable to the Rebels and other potential threats on the homefront.

Trillions? That seems absurdly low. However, they don't have to 'occupy' the 'entire' Milky Way: the Federation has about 150 notable worlds and thousands of bullshit colonies and outposts. As pointed out elsewhere, Federation civilians are docile, unarmed, ignorant civilians. It's entirely possible that the Imperials could destroy Starfleet and seize control of or destroy Federation-wide communications, meaning most of the Federation will never even hear about the invasion and will continue to recieve orders from their government as usual.

The point I was trying to make is an economic one. It is the concept of opportunity cost. Although the Empire may be thousands of orders of magnitute more powerful than the Federation, it is still better at some things than it is at other things. While the Empire may have the resources to destroy every Federration planet, it could better use those resources destroying Rebel planets or conquering other galaxies with more advanced technology. So the Empire would be better off not setting foot in the Milky Way in the first place.

There aren't any rebel planets, unless you're setting the engagement during the civil war. The Milky Way is full of resources and a war is good for control, so the Imperials have all manner of reasons to move in.

An insurrgency would target civilians and infrastructure first as well as Imperial troops. The civilians would not be protected by body armor or personal force shields so they could be vulnerable to terrorist tactics and photon bombs. It would be cheaper for insurgents to build or replicate bombs than it would be for the Empire to build new equipment and replace lost civilians. In short, the Empire would spend more comparatively in the long run occupying than the insurrencents would spend comparatively in the long run destroying. If the Empire destroyed every Federation planet, it would not be able to use those resources. If the Empire destroyed every Federation planet and then subjugated Romulan or Klingon planets, it would face an even greater insurrgency.

This is ridiculous. If terrorists attempted to operate on occupied worlds, the Imperials would simply resort to incredible brutality to quash it and beam coverage of it across the entire galaxy. How many are prepared to see their entire community destroyed to blow up a supply truck? Who will fight when San Fran, London and Tokyo are destroyed as punishment for disobedience, particularly when others who do not resist are treated fairly and given greater quality of life than they enjoyed under the Federation?

The Empire could simply poison or plague the entire population, then take the resources once the poison cleared but to ensure success they would need to keep the process gooing for a long period of time since Federation medical technology may be as advanced as Imperial medical technology (there is no evidence that Imperial medical technolgoy is superior) and may be able to counter most threats. Such a waste of time is inefficient.

Aside from the baseless claim that separate, isolated Federation strongholds (planets, bases, outposts) would somehow be able to coordinate their medical efforts when being attacked by nerve gas that kills in seconds, this is nuts. They don't need to poison: they can simply melt the entire surface of the planet if necessary. I'm not sure why you think Federation resistance will be so virulent, however: aside from the politically programmed personell of Starfleet, I don't see any significant terrorist organisations emerging after a) most of the fleet is destroyed, b)
the long-range comm network is subverted or destroyed and c) Imperial settlers are moved in to assist with rebuilding and never leave.

There may be peaceful races in the Milky Way yet to be discovered who are more powerful than the Empire that mind their own affairs unless provoked so public opinion might matter. Even the Borg have not explored the entire Milky way so there is no way to prove such races do not exist (although there is also no way to prove they do exist).

Ridiculous. That's like saying 'If the Death Star had fired at Yavin IV, Jesus would have deflected the beam'. It's totally baseless, particularly considering most 'extremely powerful' groups in ST would be utterly annihilated by the Empire anyway. But hey, I can't prove they *don't* exist...

The purpose of this post is more to see the error in my thinking than to make a serious argument.

Stop thinking 'how can ST win' and start thinking 'who is more powerful' or 'what are each sides advantages and capabilities' or 'how does the attitude and doctrine of each side determine their actions'. You're loading your dice, which as I said at the start appears to be due to an unnecessary emotional attachment to one side.

[KhyronTheBackstabber]

sciefifan

You do realize that swearing only makes you seem unintelligent which further hurts the credibility of your argument

Best get used to it if you plan on sticking around, son. The swearing does not matter, only the content of your post.

[Lord Revan]

sciefifan

You do realize that swearing only makes you seem unintelligent which further hurts the credibility of your argument

Assuming you'll last that long (which I frankly dout) You are gonna notice that the way something is said, has no relevance to the argument that's said.

Anyway the federation has explored (but not colonized) between 10 to 20 % of the Milkyway, the Empire pretty much controls 100% of it's galaxy, do you honestly think the Federation has any chance, also as it's said the Federation culture is ultra pasifistic so it highly doutfull that apart fro Starfleet personel any federation citizen would even try to fight back.

[Vader of Borg]

SciFi

I certainly won't deny the validity or invalidity of your argument based on a little cussing. I'm simply saying your cussing makes you look like an idiot. I'm not picking on you in particular-the same applies to everyone who uses excessive vulgar language.

I realize this is a private message board with private rules. I did read most of the rules. I don't agree with all of them. I wasn't given the option of agreeing with only the ones that are reasonable yet I felt a strong desire to make my opinions known.

If Mr. Wong bans me, that is his perogative.

I appologize for not making a serious debate. I needed to feel the waters first.

Finally, I don't consider you guys to be the enemy. Although I am pro-Trek I have an open mind and enjoy debate for its own sake. Thanks for the debate folks.

[Stark]

Buh? You post, people respond, you say thanks? What about a response, or at least some indication you're thinking about the issue rather than dumping and running?

[Waddles McGee]

SciFi

I certainly won't deny the validity or invalidity of your argument based on a little cussing. I'm simply saying your cussing makes you look like an idiot. I'm not picking on you in particular-the same applies to everyone who uses excessive vulgar language.

You'll find cussing is common here at SD.net. At first it shocked me, then I became used to it, now I'm a walking book of cusses. Mike cusses too, but I don't think he looks like an idiot.

I realize this is a private message board with private rules. I did read most of the rules. I don't agree with all of them. I wasn't given the option of agreeing with only the ones that are reasonable yet I felt a strong desire to make my opinions known.

Fine with me. Don't expect much respect for your opinions, though. We only have to listen, we don't have to like what you say.

If Mr. Wong bans me, that is his perogative.

I don't think you're getting banned anytime soon, don't worry about it.

I appologize for not making a serious debate. I needed to feel the waters first.

Then why not lurk for a week or two rather than make an ass out of yourself?

Finally, I don't consider you guys to be the enemy. Although I am pro-Trek I have an open mind and enjoy debate for its own sake. Thanks for the debate folks.

I enjoy debate, and have an open mind, but I gave up on ST in the debate long ago.

You're welcome for the debate. Just ask and you'll get one.

Scifi

[Ghost Rider]

Locking...one retorts to present why their position is better and valid, not tell people "I don't care for the rules and I'm pro (insert position)!"

If you're going to debate...then do so. Even if you position is akin to claiming the Sun is green and the sky is red.