Star Wars cloak detection capabilities

[AK_Jedi]

Several times on the main site and in this forum, it has been stated that the crystal gravtrap would easily detect cloaked star trek ships. While I agree that the CGT would make mincemeat of star trek cloaks, I was wondering about the viability of using it on a widespread scale.

In the Thrawn trilogy, Coruscant is blockaded by cloaked asteroids. In order to find the asteroids, the NR had to get their hands on a CGT. This was one of the reasons for launching an attack on the Bilbringi shipyards. The NR at that time did not have a CGT on coruscant, or in their entire fleet.

Since CGTs are not a unique technology, there must be some other reason that they are so rare. Either there is no use for them from a lack of cloaking devices, or they are extremely hard to construct or operate.

Given this, how likely is it that a force of star destroyers would have a CGT onboard when they encounter the cloaked ST ships.

Secondarily, are there any other star wars sensor technologies that would be able to detect a cloaked ship?

[Batman]

Since CGTs are not a unique technology, there must be some other reason that they are so rare. Either there is no use for them from a lack of cloaking devices, or they are extremely hard to construct or operate.

Or else cloaking devices that require a CGT to defeat are.

Given this, how likely is it that a force of star destroyers would have a CGT onboard when they encounter the cloaked ST ships.

Very unlikely.

Secondarily, are there any other star wars sensor technologies that would be able to detect a cloaked ship?

1. Wars has sensors Trek quite simply has no clue about so chances are Trek cloaks won't work against them (hyperwave comes to mind).
2. Trek cloaks have been defeated by Trek sensors before (ST III, VI and Tin Man come to mind) so Trek cloaks seem to be good a hiding a ship's precise location (which is nothing to be sneezed at) and not so much its general presence. Wars sensors are the tiniest bit more advanced than Trek ones.

[nightmare]

When the NR went looking for a CGT array, they had a hard time finding one available to them, yes. Although they did eventually.

That doesn't mean the same thing goes for the Empire.

Cloaking fields, as they are developing now, cannot protect against CGTs (crystal gravitational traps) since the mass of the protected vessel is not affected by the field. As most of these expensive sensors are Imperial property, the need for mass baffling seems unnecessary.

In any case, I don't see CGTs required for detecting regular Trek cloaks. Phase cloaks perhaps.

[Mr Bean]

Crystal Gravity gens are rare because there purpose is to scan entire SYSTEMS for cloaked ships via the proccess of gravatonic interfereance.


Or in english, everything that has mass has a certian amount of gravity. Each source of gravity interferes with other sources of gravity.
A CGT will measure every single gravational source within a system then start observering each one in sequence. (And of course it has a large amount of high power proccesing power and powerful sensors to back it up.)

Going down the list like so whenever it can't find something that should be there, bingo you have a steath'd ship.

Scientist already do this on a larger scale to look at stars "wobble" to see if they have planets.

Because of course by it's nature CGT's are designed for fixed system diffences so it can build background data and see what the system looks like clean. So to speak.

As for Star Trek ships, if they are under power, they can be detected by the normal range of SW ships. Any cloaked ship which is running on power will emitt something detectable.

[PayBack]

In any case, I don't see CGTs required for detecting regular Trek cloaks. Phase cloaks perhaps.

Would they work on phase cloaks? Isn't the mass of the cloaked ship out of phase also?

It's been a while since I've seen the episode.

[vivftp]

Would they work on phase cloaks? Isn't the mass of the cloaked ship out of phase also?

It's been a while since I've seen the episode.

That'd be kinda hard to answer for the Feddie phase cloak. We have examples like Ro and Geordi who were able to walk on the ships deck plating just fine, indicating they were being affected by the ships gravity, but their example isn't exactly like that of a ship running an active cloak. They were just modified mid-transport so that their structure was in a phase cloaked state - that's what they now were. With a ship running a cloak you have to continuously run power into it to keep the ship in that state - cut power to the cloak and you return to normal.

There are examples like the aliens from VOY's Scientific Method and the Voth. On a personal level their phase cloaks allowed them to walk around like Ro and Geordi. We can't say too much for their ships phase cloaks. We know the aliens had their ships somehow latched onto Voyager even when phase cloaked and they feared going between the binary pulsars even if they were still cloaked.

Anyways, enough rambling there - the answer is we don't know if the Feddie phase cloak would also phase the mass completely out since we can't say for certain just how much it phases you out.

I mean, it can go all the way to the phasing level seen in Times Arrow where Data was literally occupying the same space as everyone else, but was just slightly out of sync temporally (well, maybe not to THAT extreme a degree).

[Batman]

As the Feds don't have a phase cloak who cares?

[nightmare]

Additionally, even if we assume by default that cloaks are undetectable (against the evidence), firing ships can still be found by EPR (visual) triangulation since last I checked, phasers and torpedoes are in the plain visible EM spectrum (to say nothing of torpedo propulsion). This method is implied to be used against SW cloaked ships... and, well, that's what EPRs do... visual targetting.

[NecronLord]

One thing that interests me, is - if a cloaked SW ship was doing something, say, changing velocity, would its heat-sinks be emitting neutrinos, as it's suggested they do when shot in the AotC ICS.

[AK_Jedi]

One thing that interests me, is - if a cloaked SW ship was doing something, say, changing velocity, would its heat-sinks be emitting neutrinos, as it's suggested they do when shot in the AotC ICS.

If not, they wouldn't be able to stay cloaked very long, since the heat buildup would be too much.

IIRC, in the book where they blockade Coruscant (I can't remember if it was dark force rising or last command), they were able to detect the engine wash trail that was left by the cloaked asteroids. The cloaking devices are said to block all EM going in or out, so particles such as neutrinos or ions from the engine would be able to pass through.

[Batman]

IIRC, in the book where they blockade Coruscant (I can't remember if it was dark force rising or last command), they were able to detect the engine wash trail that was left by the cloaked asteroids.

It was 'The Last Command' and that's incorrect. The asteroids didn't have engines, they were deposited in more or less stable orbits.
What happened was the NR dumped a load of particles in the presumed way of the asteroids in the hopes of detecting them via their 'wake' when they plowed through the particle cloud.

The cloaking devices are said to block all EM going in or out, so particles such as neutrinos or ions from the engine would be able to pass through.

Im drive ions can't exit the cloaking field trying to move under cloak is going to be interesting

[NecronLord]

If not, they wouldn't be able to stay cloaked very long, since the heat buildup would be too much.

See, if that were so, the cloaks would be seriously deficient against Trek, because even a tricorder can detect the neutrino emissions from a cloaked ship (Insurrection)

[Batman]

If not, they wouldn't be able to stay cloaked very long, since the heat buildup would be too much.

See, if that were so, the cloaks would be seriously deficient against Trek, because even a tricorder can detect the neutrino emissions from a cloaked ship (Insurrection)

That's assuming it's omnidirectional emission.

[PayBack]

What's the story with the cloaked fighters being developed for some game I believe (never played it). Are they canon and I assume they didn't suffer the normal SW cloak problem of double blind?

[Elheru Aran]

What's the story with the cloaked fighters being developed for some game I believe (never played it). Are they canon and I assume they didn't suffer the normal SW cloak problem of double blind?

Rebel Assault II. Arcade style shooter. The fighters were TIE Phantoms, I believe; the cockpit was somewhat like the Falcon's, but it had three Interceptor-style wings attached.



It wasn't double-blind, as you could see through it; however, the cloak was unstable, and tended to fluctate on and off if used for long periods, as you can see later on in the game when duelling other TIE Phantoms.

[Elheru Aran]

Quick Ghetto Edit: The article is here.

[Lord Revan]

Also like (early) ST cloaks TIE Phamton must decloak to use their guns (or at least that's the impression I got).

[Elheru Aran]

I'm not sure that's the case, as some were firing while cloaked in-game. Also, in one of the cutscenes, Rookie 1 and his B-wing leader are attacked, and they can't find whoever's shooting on their sensors. It's been a long time since I played the game, though, so feel free to confirm or deny that...

[Lord Revan]

I'm not sure that's the case, as some were firing while cloaked in-game. Also, in one of the cutscenes, Rookie 1 and his B-wing leader are attacked, and they can't find whoever's shooting on their sensors. It's been a long time since I played the game, though, so feel free to confirm or deny that...

it's been ages since I've played, but IIRC the Cloak seem deactivate when the fighters shot and reactive after (the fighter was viseble for about 1 sec) during the battle near the SSD.

[PayBack]

What's the story with the cloaked fighters being developed for some game I believe (never played it). Are they canon and I assume they didn't suffer the normal SW cloak problem of double blind?

Rebel Assault II. Arcade style shooter. The fighters were TIE Phantoms, I believe; the cockpit was somewhat like the Falcon's, but it had three Interceptor-style wings attached.

It wasn't double-blind, as you could see through it; however, the cloak was unstable, and tended to fluctate on and off if used for long periods, as you can see later on in the game when duelling other TIE Phantoms.

Cheers, Yeah I've read that article (and almost the whole site twice over) but couldn't assume from it that they they weren't double blind, but your reply has answered that, thanks. (I know fighters that are blind when cloaked would be a dumb idea but you never know).

[Batman]

Would somebody explain to me why since one particular brand of cloak was double blind (and was considered to be of limited utility because of that) it's now considered normal for Wars cloaks to be double blind?
Hello?

[Ghost Rider]

I would like to point out that CANON has a cloak that's not a double blind for anyone advocating this. It's called Darth Maul's vessel.

In fact only Zahn created the double blind cloak.

[PayBack]

Would somebody explain to me why since one particular brand of cloak was double blind (and was considered to be of limited utility because of that) it's now considered normal for Wars cloaks to be double blind?
Hello?

Well in my case it's due to the shields comparison on the main site which to me implied this was the case. It's states a couple of times that SW shields suffer from this, not that one of many or one of two, types of shields do.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/

[PayBack]

Sorry that link was kind of pointless...

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... cial2.html

[PayBack]

I would like to point out that CANON has a cloak that's not a double blind for anyone advocating this. It's called Darth Maul's vessel.

In fact only Zahn created the double blind cloak.

It's been ages since I read the books, but IIRC Zahn didn't create the cloaks, just used existing cloaking technology?

And is there canon evidence that Mauls cloak doesn't suffer from the same limitation? I'm not arguing that it does, I'm asking because I've seen mention of the Sith vessel having a cloak but none on how it functioned.