What religion are you?

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2006-02-23 12:58am

Stas Bush wrote:Spyder
Also, do you have a source that says that a Falun Gong practitioner did anything worse then unfurl a yellow banner that didn't originate from the Chinese government?
So it's the "when cultists say they are not dangerous, I believe. When the government says they are mad fucks, I don't believe... because I believe the cultists" line. Great.

There are more then two points of view Mr Black and White fallacy, I've already cited the sensored google information and Time magazine as outside sources. The link you provided contained the following:

The Chinese government has relentlessly suppressed religious groups since achieving power in 1949. The rest of the world is most familiar with its oppression of non-registered Christian groups. However, the government has also persecuted many types of new religious and spiritual groups, including the Falun Gong. In fact, its suppression extends beyond such groups to include organizations that teach only simple meditation and gymnastic techniques. The government appears to fear any national group that is capable of organizing its followers into direct action.

That really doesn't help your argument. Quite the opposite infact.

Oh gee, the Chinese government said it...must be true then.
I think it's a reasonable conclusion. If you read the article with attention, you would notice that Falun Gong didn't attract attention for quite a while.
Also, it would be ridiculous to persecute on religious grounds one religion, but not another. If religion is the ground for persecution, then why aren't all Buddhists, Daos, Shaoling monks and Confucians facing persecution?
Maybe because they don't tell people to reject medicine and burn themselves up?

No, they're facing persecution too,

Christian Persecution

A Chinese Christian refugee in New York, working with Christians in China, has compiled an extensive new archive documenting brutal religious persecution that has caused more than 100 deaths and thousands of injuries.

Activist Li Shi-xiong, head of the New York City–based Committee for Investigation on Persecution of Religion in China, believes these documents establish that communist rulers at the highest levels take an active role in persecuting house-church Christians. In the past, top leaders in China have blamed repression on overzealous local officials....

And for the win,

Buddhism, Daoism, Islam. Catholicism, and Protestantism

In this report, Human Rights Watch/Asia focuses on the persistent crackdown against religious expression of Catholics and Protestants. We note, however, that repression in China is directed against all religions, the five that are officially recognized (Buddhism, Daoism, Islam. Catholicism, and Protestantism) and all allegedly aberrant and superstitious sects. In Tibet, for example, the Chinese government has violated international standards of religious freedom by insisting on its own choice for the new Panchen Lama, the second most important religious authority for Tibetan Buddhists.

Until your knowledge of this area surpasses that of a wet cabbage I'm going to have to insist that you avoid the reply button.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-02-23 02:32am

Spyder
Oh rly?
My knowledge is based on BEING in the country, where people practice religion. That's it. Perhaps it's a narrow view, but it's enough for me. I don't give a shit about words from religious authorities.

So maybe on a global scale there's some huge persecution that I wasn't able to see in Urumchi and the surrounding province.

I give up.

Broomstick

It helps if you can get the fucking name of the movement right, idiot

In Russia we call them "Dianetics" (dianetika). I'm not english, take it easy.

And, by the way, I was referring to the Soviet Union, jackass, so rewind that bait and switch you just tried to pull

Yes, if you were religious, you could not rise to power. I agree. So? I believe it's right.

You, however, ARE asking that religion be replaced entirely by atheism.

It would be good, but atheism can't do it on it's own, because it's not calling to any opression in itself.

Demonstrate that there has been any sort of moral improvement over the last 1,000 years.

Just watch generic person views on child and female murder and genocide. Then go back in time and see how genocidal maniacs have been named heroes, and children and women were mercilessly slaughtered.

Abusing/starving your powerbase is a pretty stupid thing to do if you're a ruler.

You're only living one life, and your "powerbase" only exists to work for your army. His country is just one giant army.

Provoking larger and more powerful nations with greater resources than yours is pretty fucking stupid.

With the Nuke Talks he achieved political goals.

You are a religious bigot.

I'm just seeing history as it is. Religion evolved and inherited evil at birthplace. It took thousands of years and secularism to get rid of that evil dogmatism.

I also suspect that you are defining religion in terms of Christianity

Christianity is a part of intolerant religions, many of it's "denominations" are nothing more than totalitarian cults and sects.

with the polytheists much less inclined to that level of intolerance

As long as Zeus doesn't say to murder someone, that is. They were just lucky with their gods.

But not all religion is "fundie", and most religious people are not "fundie".

Surely. But fundieism is a threat to society. And without religion, it would hardly ever have such levels of support. A massive crackdown on religion in the USSR dealt a crippling blow to fundies and all of their movements.

Atheism can arise out of defiance.

I was speaking about the idea itself. Atheism is rational. The idea that there is a God which requires sacrifices sitting somewhere above is hardly rational.

My personal view is still that organised religion is 99% evil and dangerous. Especially when talking about religions like Christianity or Islam, which have a long history of intolerance and bloodshed.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-02-23 02:55am

~EDIT:
missed the "most religious people are not "fundie".
Certainly that's not true for many cults, which demand the blindest of faiths from all their followers. And many of the monotheistic religions have a huge "fundie bloc", be it fundie denominations themselves or just a lot of fundies in the mainstream denomination.

On moral evolution: religion has not been a positive force in mankind's moral progress. Most Religions, especially the most powerful ones, did not condemn slavery or genocide, racial intolerance and life-time social inequality. Thus religion's impact on world morals has not been positive. As for science, which has given people enough goods and wealth so that they can work peacefully with each other rather than killing one another for food.
Tribal mentality of the Middle East and Africa are a huge testament to what religion is and does. There can be no excuse for religion, because at it's core is not reason and logic, but rather faith, which is a tool of control.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2006-02-23 04:17am

Stas Bush wrote:Spyder
Oh rly?
My knowledge is based on BEING in the country, where people practice religion. That's it. Perhaps it's a narrow view, but it's enough for me. I don't give a shit about words from religious authorities.

Ya rly.
Visiting the local Wok'U'Want doesn't actually count as going to China.

So maybe on a global scale there's some huge persecution that I wasn't able to see in Urumchi and the surrounding province.

I give up.

Ok, I think I've provided more then enough written evidence at this point so now I'm going to give you a number and some logic. Don't be frightened, they're not going to hurt you. I'll even warn you before the number appears so you'll have plenty of time to get out your juju kit and paint yourself with goat blood, or whatever it is you do when you see smart people drive past your burrow on their way to work.

Now, I'm assuming you're not immortal and it seems that you're not actually from China given that you're constantly reffering to your experience in past tense. Given this we can narrow down the possibilities to you either being not Chinese, an idiot, or both. What this tells us is that there had to be a limit to the amount of time you spent in China.

Now here comes that number; 1.3 billion, China's population. Now realistically what percentage of "China" could you have possibly experienced during your little holiday?

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-02-23 06:42am

Spyder
I already said that I concede, there is persecution of organised religion.

Now realistically what percentage of "China" could you have possibly experienced during your little holiday?

Realistically very little. But if you know population statistics, you'd know that there are typical units. A chinese person from the provice is a typical unit of society. The more typical units you see, the more you know about the society. A chinese driver is also a typical unit of society.

It's not like I was going around with tour guides, visiting only special places like "the special Chinese Government recreation which proves people are free from religious persecution" and seeing monks and Lamas from afat (who are not typical units of society). If you hitch-hike or travel on your own, that's a lot of experience with ordinary and typical people out of the 1,3 billion.

So if I meet an a few ordinary people from the province, I would logically conclude that most of the ordinary people live like that. Common sense.

Thunderfire · Post by **Thunderfire** » 2006-02-23 07:40am

Broomstick wrote:
People are better now than 1000 years ago. That's a fucking obvious fact, there's moral evolution going on.
Cite. Facts, please. Demonstrate that there has been any sort of moral improvement over the last 1,000 years. Stating it's an obvious fact does not make it one. You made the statement, you back it up.

Quite a few barbaric practices were common in the western world 1000 years ago.

Slavery/Peonage - gone
Legal Rape(ius primae noctis) - gone
barbaric execution methods - gone
enforced state relligion - gone
etc.

Akhlut · Post by **Akhlut** » 2006-02-23 08:07am

Thunderfire wrote:Quite a few barbaric practices were common in the western world 1000 years ago.

Slavery/Peonage - gone
Legal Rape(ius primae noctis) - gone
barbaric execution methods - gone
enforced state relligion - gone
etc.

Humanity as a whole hasn't gotten rid of any of those, though, except, possibly, legal rape. Maybe.

Thunderfire · Post by **Thunderfire** » 2006-02-23 08:37am

Akhlut wrote: Humanity as a whole hasn't gotten rid of any of those, though, except, possibly, legal rape. Maybe.

Those things are almost completely gone in the western world. Some parts of the world are are more backwards.

Akhlut · Post by **Akhlut** » 2006-02-23 11:12am

Thunderfire wrote:
Akhlut wrote: Humanity as a whole hasn't gotten rid of any of those, though, except, possibly, legal rape. Maybe.

Those things are almost completely gone in the western world. Some parts of the world are are more backwards.

If by "some parts" you mean the vast majority, yes.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-02-23 11:18am

Akhlut
You're probably right, but quite a fraction of the world's population has abandoned ancient brutality. All with the rise of secularism.

Africa, Latin America, Indochina region and the Middle East house a lot of the world's population, and they still have leftovers or maybe full-blown anachronistic atrocities, but even they're making progress.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2006-02-23 05:40pm

Athiest, with a belief system that I'd probably call secular humanist if forced to identify it with something, but that's actually a bit more complicated than that.

Sporkzen · Post by **Sporkzen** » 2006-03-04 09:48am

Former fundamentalist Christian, hell I even started the path to become a preacher... That only raised more questions. Slowly it became a decline from being confused to not really caring. So nowadays I would consider myself an agnostic with leanings toward atheism cause i really just dont give a flying fuck about religion anymore

CoyoteNature · Post by **CoyoteNature** » 2006-03-04 10:40am

Quasi Techno pagan with aspects of mysticism mixed together with a dash of humanism, and a overall belief in infinity in the world, not necessarily of the god type.

Plus I'm very fond of the polytheistic religions, in particular the Aztec, Norse, Greek, and somewhat the Indian. I think mostly because I like imperfect gods.

Also personally I have a little of Celtic or Gaelic mythos, in the form of jewelry, of which a small part of me actually believes that they bring whatever magical effect they symbolize.

Of course that is one part, there are many other parts.

I also partly believe in humanity as some quasi divinity thing, not sure if that makes sense, or the large part of beliefs, but suffice to say its a mish mash.

Master of Cards · Post by **Master of Cards** » 2006-03-04 01:52pm

Agnostic Catholic

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2006-03-04 02:19pm

Pantheist humanist spiritual sorta-Christian with Buddhist, Animist, and Jedi (yes, I feel the Force at times

) leanings.

I was raised without any religious direction, but I had a short Fundy stint when my sister and I went to Sunday School (Southern Baptist) as kids. The preacher's constant bellowing about eternal hellfire and damnation soured us on that pretty quick, as we knew in our hearts that any God worth his worshippers wouldn't lay on the fear so damn thick. We lost interest in that brand of Christianity, although my sister went Fundy again in '95 to -'98 when she dated (and unfortunately had a kid by) some Nazi asshole she met in Belle Chasse. I became Christian some time after meeting David in '01, and now he and I consider Fundies to be misguided, sinful, morally-bankrupt heretics who really wouldn't know God if He evolved a single perfect blue-green marble on the outskirts of some randomn barred spiral galaxy and gave it to us!

Old Peculier · Post by **Old Peculier** » 2006-03-04 02:33pm

I'm an atheist

Archon · Post by **Archon** » 2006-03-04 03:02pm

Confirmed Anglican.

Right now, non-denominational Christian.

Baron Scarpia · Post by **Baron Scarpia** » 2006-03-05 04:10pm

My mother's side is methodist, as my great-grandfather was the last in a long line of methodist ministers (NE liberal intellectual types). My family attended a Unitarian church when i was growing up in memphis, but that was because my dad worked with several members and the church had a spectacular view of th mississippi river. After we moved to maryland when I was 12, we stopped going to church because all the ones in my area were the fire 'n' brimstone kind, and the only UU church was new-age weirdness.

I'm now an atheist (of the weak atheism variety), my brother is a hardcore atheist, and my parents seem to be mostly agnostic, although i've never talked with my dad about religion.

Post by **haas mark** » 2006-03-05 10:26pm

Pagan, but confirmed in the Catholic church.

Xess · Post by **Xess** » 2006-03-06 01:05am

I'm an athiest, or secular humanist or whatever you want to call that point of view.

However for fun, I'm a follower of Selune, the chaotic good goddess of the Moon and the like from Forgotten Realms.

Luzifer's right hand · Post by **Luzifer's right hand** » 2006-03-06 05:08am

Chatolic atheist.
I still go to church from time to time because it's tradition and pay the curch tax but I don't belive in god.

SVPD · Post by **SVPD** » 2006-03-06 12:19pm

Lutheran (no, not Missouri Synod)

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2006-03-06 11:06pm

I was a Maltheist for about half an hour after my first and only trip to Bible School when I was 6 or 7 (they were Baptists, but I had them doing the "cross-your-heart" thing).

I've been a Born Again Atheist ever since.

Agemegos · Post by **Agemegos** » 2006-03-11 04:26am

Atheist.

Darth Cronos the Proud · Post by **Darth Cronos the Proud** » 2006-03-11 09:24am

Devout Roman Catholic.

It's a good thing too. Accepting theories like Evolution and the Big Bang doesn't conflict with Catholic Dogma. That saves me from having to do retarded things like defend Biblical Literalism or Creationsim.