Check my figures for matter conversion please.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-07 07:25pm

consequences wrote:Wong: Read the damned series before you start nitpicking, the Iron bit came from 2 prequel novels written long after the original series of books, do you judge Star Wars on the basis of the Phantom Menace?

Yes, it's part of the Star Wars series. And we're not talking about movie taste; we're talking about the use of pseudoscience.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-12-07 08:17pm

Why isn't it hard sci-fi? Just becuase he introduces a new vareint of an element doesn't mean much. A mean how many hard sci-fi universes do that?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-07 08:23pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:Why isn't it hard sci-fi? Just becuase he introduces a new vareint of an element doesn't mean much. A mean how many hard sci-fi universes do that?

Star Trek does that. And that's why it's not hard sci-fi.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-12-07 08:27pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:Why isn't it hard sci-fi? Just becuase he introduces a new vareint of an element doesn't mean much. A mean how many hard sci-fi universes do that?
Star Trek does that. And that's why it's not hard sci-fi.

Star Trek makes technobabble... big difference. Lensman uses the pounds energy thoughout the books... its not a new particle every other episode deal.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-12-07 08:36pm

Definitely agree on reading Galactic Patrol first, and then continuing as the author originally published them.
We are talking about Epic Space Opera, not Hard Sci-fi, and the Space Opera in question is internally consistent, unlike Star Trek. I've read the series repeatedly, and I've only got one major nitpick, and that can be explained by the psychology of the characters involved. I don't recall ever claiming Lensman was Hard Sci-fi, just that people were being overly critical of something they have no first hand experience of.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-07 08:47pm

(sigh) nobody's saying that these books suck. What we are saying is that lb/hr is a moronic unit of power, and the use of iron as fuel is even worse. You're getting all defensive, just like Trekkies who don't like hearing that cracks in event horizons are idiotic. Why was it necessary to explain what the fuel is, and in so doing, look ridiculous?

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-12-07 08:57pm

Darth Wong wrote:(sigh) nobody's saying that these books suck. What we are saying is that lb/hr is a moronic unit of power, and the use of iron as fuel is even worse. You're getting all defensive, just like Trekkies who don't like hearing that cracks in event horizons are idiotic. Why was it necessary to explain what the fuel is, and in so doing, look ridiculous?

Okay, I will agree it is not hard sci-fi. However why does converting an element to energy for power look ridiculous to you? This was published in 1948 you know.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-12-07 09:36pm

Before 1948, and its mainly the GURPS writers fault anyway. Scientifically speaking it is pretty dumb, and that's coming fro someone with little scientific training, I can see how it would really piss of those more familiar with the proper terminology.
Sorry, the first post someone made of that nature essentially called the author a "fucking moron" and I guess I projected my reaction to that at those who didn't deserve it. My bad.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-07 09:43pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:(sigh) nobody's saying that these books suck. What we are saying is that lb/hr is a moronic unit of power, and the use of iron as fuel is even worse. You're getting all defensive, just like Trekkies who don't like hearing that cracks in event horizons are idiotic. Why was it necessary to explain what the fuel is, and in so doing, look ridiculous?
Okay, I will agree it is not hard sci-fi. However why does converting an element to energy for power look ridiculous to you? This was published in 1948 you know.

For the last time, that's not why it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous because he uses the unit "pounds per hour." Pounds are not a unit of mass, and this concept has been around since Newton's time. Pounds are a unit of force. It'd be equally ridiculous if he said "Newtons per hour," because force is dependent upon acceleration. Since his unit is force per unit time, it's a unit of momentum, which makes it completely senseless for power generation description.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-12-07 10:14pm

And once again, "Doc" Smith didn't do that, GURPS did.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-12-07 10:20pm

Durandal wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:(sigh) nobody's saying that these books suck. What we are saying is that lb/hr is a moronic unit of power, and the use of iron as fuel is even worse. You're getting all defensive, just like Trekkies who don't like hearing that cracks in event horizons are idiotic. Why was it necessary to explain what the fuel is, and in so doing, look ridiculous?
Okay, I will agree it is not hard sci-fi. However why does converting an element to energy for power look ridiculous to you? This was published in 1948 you know.
For the last time, that's not why it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous because he uses the unit "pounds per hour." Pounds are not a unit of mass, and this concept has been around since Newton's time. Pounds are a unit of force. It'd be equally ridiculous if he said "Newtons per hour," because force is dependent upon acceleration. Since his unit is force per unit time, it's a unit of momentum, which makes it completely senseless for power generation description.

okay I understand that. However I can't find anything like that in the actaul novels I have. They do carry pounds of iron but no pounds of energy in actual energy usage.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-12-07 10:32pm

Like I've been saying, sheesh, listen to the man who owns some of the first editions of the novels, and both printings of the GURPS Sourcebook already.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-12-07 10:47pm

consequences wrote:Like I've been saying, sheesh, listen to the man who owns some of the first editions of the novels, and both printings of the GURPS Sourcebook already.

Just agreeing with you.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-12-07 11:16pm

I know, but others don't seem to be listening.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2002-12-08 02:56am

Gray Lensman, by Edward E. Smith, Ph.D, page 49, last paragraph: "Thus, the atomic motors which served as exciters had a maximum power of four hundred pounds an hour; that is, each exciter could transform that amount of matter into pure energy and employ that output usefully in energizing the intake screen to which it was connected."

So it was Doc's boo-boo first, and Barrett just went along with it. Though actually he said "pounds an hour," not "pounds per hour," if that makes any difference.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2002-12-08 02:35pm

Oh, and here's the late Gharlane of Eddore's Lensman FAQ: http://web.archive.org/web/200110242020 ... nsfaq.html

Enjoy.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-08 04:57pm

consequences wrote:And once again, "Doc" Smith didn't do that, GURPS did.

I don't care who did it. The fact remains that it's a ridiculous unit to use. Stephen Hawking could have done it, and it'd still be stupid.